What are your feelings about Henry?

[Russ Smith]

I agree that I would not give up our 2nd round pick. LJ and our 3rd would be doable. Surtain as you say "maybe" is on the down side of his career....but DG always seems to have a need for veterans that can still get it done. In a turn around project you have to have guys that make plays. That is why we picked up Okeafer instead of platooning Pace\Zellner. Surtain for LJ and our 3rd would be a value deal. For our 2nd rounder I would not consider it.

I would argue that he's on the downside, Okeafor is the same age, 3 months older actually and we just signed him to a big deal that everyone seems excited about.

Griffith at safety is MUCH older. THe reason I can assume Surtain is getting little offer is he's asking for a lot of money in a year perceived to be deep at CB in the draft. I'd be stunned if any CB taken this year is as good a CB THIS year as Surtain figures to be.

 

[Russ Smith]

Surtain definitely is on the down side of this career. Cornerbacks--especially very physical corners like Patrick--don't fade, they just stop playing well. Surtain is suddenly available because his style of play isn't useful in the NFL anymore. I think that with the price tags each player carry, LJ for Surtain straight-up is a fair deal, but with the depth issues that the Cards have almost all over the place, I'm not willing to pass on a player like Pouha at the bottom of the third round for a guy that will only be good for two years, but will cost two to three times more.

Well he was an injury replacement in the Pro Bowl again last year after making it the prior 2 and he has more INT's than any CB in the NFL over the last 4 years so he's doing something right. He skipped the pro bowl because he didn't want to risk injury.

The ONE red flag I can find on Surtain is he apparently has some persistent knee "trouble", mainly tendonitis, though he's only missed 4 games in the last 3 years and 2 of those were totally unrelated to the knee. Surtain had his knee scoped in 2002 and again in 2003, both times no structural damage was found just swelling and some debris which they cleared out. So yes his knee bugs him, but so far he has no serious injuries.

He's the best CB available, he IS physical but the rules change didn't seem to impact him all that much last year he was still good, just the team around him imploded.

 

[Rats]

My Scenario would net us, Surtain, Henry, Johnson, Jackson for Lj and our two third rounders. There is no arguement you can make that would be a better on the field "Win" than that for the Cardinals. A third round Cb? Over a trade for Surtain? That has to be the stupidest thing you have ever said here. And that covers alot of ground K9. If we are unable to get Hill resigned then go with Jackson at starting CB and Curry as the nickal and look for a June 1 realease to compete in camp. Cb is not what is was now that they enforce the rules.

 

[kerouac9]

I'd be stunned if any CB taken this year is as good a CB THIS year as Surtain figures to be.

I agree with you, but I'm not willing to mortgage the future of this team for a possible good player now. I think that Rogers or Jones will be able to be as good or better than Surtain on the edge within two seasons, and can play at a high level for much longer.

I think that with a pass rush from Okeafor/Pace, Dockett, and Berry, a rookie corner is not liable to be exposed the way that Carroll/Thomas were in Green Bay, or Jammer and Davis have been in San Diego. There's a real chicken and egg scenario in Miami, because Jason Taylor and their linebackers have done such a good job establishing a pass rush that it's harder to tell whether Madison and Surtain were as good or better than Bailey and Smoot or just as mediocre as Barber and Kelly are in Tampa. I'm not 100% sold on investing the #8 overall in a cornerback (although it'll be hard to pass on Chris Henry if he's available in the second if we don't). A hot pass rush will do a lot to cover inexperience in the secondary.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Shelton for Henry straight up is okay by me. If not,keep Shelton. A swap of second rounders is unacceptable.

Let Buffalo deal with an unhappy player under contract.

We are not just one player away from being good. Denny has stated he likes building through the draft so I don't think he'll swap seconds.

This is all being driven by Buffalo fans who haven't come to grips yet with that Henry's attractiveness on the open market is limited.

Skkorp - the same can be said for Arizona fans who haven't come to grips yet with Shelton attractiveness being limited as well.

The ability to pick whoever the hell we want at #8 because we have the other position of need(RB) sewn up is worth moing 11 slots down in the second round IMO.

 

[Rats]

I would argue that he's on the downside, Okeafor is the same age, 3 months older actually and we just signed him to a big deal that everyone seems excited about.

Griffith at safety is MUCH older. THe reason I can assume Surtain is getting little offer is he's asking for a lot of money in a year perceived to be deep at CB in the draft. I'd be stunned if any CB taken this year is as good a CB THIS year as Surtain figures to be.

I agree with you Russ. Surtain is still an impact CB in the NFL. So is Okeafor and so is Griffith. I also agree with the rules being enforced that CB will not be shuting down half the field as in the past. We would get impact guys with my scenario and the best overall Defensive player in Johnson. All for Lj and two third rounders and possibly Pace. Where do we sign......somebody get these guys a damn pen.

 

[Russ Smith]

I agree with you, but I'm not willing to mortgage the future of this team for a possible good player now. I think that Rogers or Jones will be able to be as good or better than Surtain on the edge within two seasons, and can play at a high level for much longer.

I think that with a pass rush from Okeafor/Pace, Dockett, and Berry, a rookie corner is not liable to be exposed the way that Carroll/Thomas were in Green Bay, or Jammer and Davis have been in San Diego. There's a real chicken and egg scenario in Miami, because Jason Taylor and their linebackers have done such a good job establishing a pass rush that it's harder to tell whether Madison and Surtain were as good or better than Bailey and Smoot or just as mediocre as Barber and Kelly are in Tampa. I'm not 100% sold on investing the #8 overall in a cornerback (although it'll be hard to pass on Chris Henry if he's available in the second if we don't). A hot pass rush will do a lot to cover inexperience in the secondary.

Understood but you could be in a sense mortgaging the present. I for one think the Cards have a reasonable shot after the draft of being the favorite to win our division. If we do nothing at CB and draft a Rogers or Pac man at 8, we take some risk.

I do agree about pass rush by the way, that's one reason I was pimping Pryce, if healthy he was going to make a massive impact as both a run stuffer and a pass rusher.

Any trade for Surtain would be contingent on his passing a physical of course so if the knee really IS a problem, the deal would never stand.

I do agree its' tough to grade Miami CB"s because they've had a very good pass rush.

 

[kerouac9]

My Scenario would net us, Surtain, Henry, Johnson, Jackson for Lj and our two third rounders. There is no arguement you can make that would be a better on the field "Win" than that for the Cardinals. A third round Cb? Over a trade for Surtain? That has to be the stupidest thing you have ever said here. And that covers alot of ground K9. If we are unable to get Hill resigned then go with Jackson at starting CB and Curry as the nickal and look for a June 1 realease to compete in camp. Cb is not what is was now that they enforce the rules.

Your strategy sounds a lot like what the Carolina Panthers tried to do before they imploded their team four years ago because they overspent on free-agent gambles. You're more into Derrick Johnson than I am, and he might fall out of the top 15 because his rep as a run-around player is getting out. Are you talking about Marlin Jackson?

If you want to staunch the bleeding for two seasons, why not sign Ty Law to a two-year, $12 millon contract? Then you don't have to give anything up and you get a pretty good player for a very short amount of time.

Again, I'm just trying to continue to build the team for the long term, and I don't think mortaging 22 year old talent for players five years older is the recommeded way to go. I'd rather see the draft go like this:

8. Adam Jones, CB, West Virginia (though I wouldn't be averse to trading down with the Chargers to get Carlos Rogers [CB, Auburn] and an extra 3rd)
44. Chris Henry, WR, West Virginia
75. Marion Barber, RB, Minnesota
95. Chris McKenzie, CB, Arizona State

Trade Shelton for Travis Henry. Oooh. That just gives me shivers.

 

[MadCardDisease]

Henry isn't the healthiest of players either. The average life span of a NFL RB is something like 3 years. Especially the power RB types who take a lot of hits.

 

[Russ Smith]

8. Adam Jones, CB, West Virginia (though I wouldn't be averse to trading down with the Chargers to get Carlos Rogers [CB, Auburn] and an extra 3rd)
44. Chris Henry, WR, West Virginia
75. Marion Barber, RB, Minnesota
95. Chris McKenzie, CB, Arizona State

Trade Shelton for Travis Henry. Oooh. That just gives me shivers.

Henry is intriguing but you get 2 short CB's and a RB who's just not all that fast. THe same "insider" report that said Johnson was dropping because he runs around blocks said Jones was dropping because he's so short and showed himself to be very raw in footwork drills.

Frankly this time of year you can't buy anything you read, Smiths' workout is the best since Aikman, now we hear scouts really weren't all that excited. Johnson's workouts have been praised both at the combine and at his pro day but people are saying he's not physical enough (admittedly not an area of strength for him).

This time last year Sean Taylor was overrated and ran slower than expected (because he was injured and everyone knew it) and he was going to plummet.

Everyone is bluffing now.

The one risk on your draft is we have a great relay team but we might have 2 Cb's who are TOO short, and a WR who was so disruptive in college his coaches and teammates WANTED him to go pro early. Major talent(not Moss mind you) but a real headcase.

 

[Rats]

Your strategy sounds a lot like what the Carolina Panthers tried to do before they imploded their team four years ago because they overspent on free-agent gambles. You're more into Derrick Johnson than I am, and he might fall out of the top 15 because his rep as a run-around player is getting out. Are you talking about Marlin Jackson?

If you want to staunch the bleeding for two seasons, why not sign Ty Law to a two-year, $12 millon contract? Then you don't have to give anything up and you get a pretty good player for a very short amount of time.

Again, I'm just trying to continue to build the team for the long term, and I don't think mortaging 22 year old talent for players five years older is the recommeded way to go. I'd rather see the draft go like this:

8. Adam Jones, CB, West Virginia (though I wouldn't be averse to trading down with the Chargers to get Carlos Rogers [CB, Auburn] and an extra 3rd)
44. Chris Henry, WR, West Virginia
75. Marion Barber, RB, Minnesota
95. Chris McKenzie, CB, Arizona State

Trade Shelton for Travis Henry. Oooh. That just gives me shivers.

Fair enough, your draft isn't that bad( I like Chris Henry but with our last 3rd from the Pats) although I think Barber that low is wishful thinking. I just have a difficult time drafting a Cornerback with our pick at 8. I would also like to trade down but I would then look at Heath Miller around 14 or so not a CB. Yes Marlin Jackson out of Mich. HE is a gamer and could be had at our spot in h the 2nd round. He did injure himself at his Pro day but he should be ok.

 

[kerouac9]

Understood but you could be in a sense mortgaging the present. I for one think the Cards have a reasonable shot after the draft of being the favorite to win our division. If we do nothing at CB and draft a Rogers or Pac man at 8, we take some risk.

See, I don't know. I think a lot of that is just hype. If Warner implodes or McCown fails to develop, the Cards will be fighting with the 49ers for last place regardless of what happens. I think that the Cards, following the draft, have the opportunity to be competitive in the division, but I think that there have been so many changes across the board in both Seattle and St. Louis that it's impossible to tell how the NFC West is going to shake out. It may end up being the most competitive division in the NFL (again), but also the worst.

I guess I'm wondering if you assume that we can get either Williams or Brown with that #8 pick if we pass on Henry and take Surtain (and re-negotiate). I agree that the Cards should take a chance on one player or the other, but not both (which is why I'm resistant to Rats opinion). We take some risk either way, but for some reason, I'm more willing to put that risk at running back than at corner (I think it's because you can get RB value late in the draft when it's much harder to find a starting-quality corner after the first two rounds).

It's all about risk, and managing it.

 

[kerouac9]

Henry is intriguing but you get 2 short CB's and a RB who's just not all that fast. THe same "insider" report that said Johnson was dropping because he runs around blocks said Jones was dropping because he's so short and showed himself to be very raw in footwork drills.

Frankly this time of year you can't buy anything you read, Smiths' workout is the best since Aikman, now we hear scouts really weren't all that excited. Johnson's workouts have been praised both at the combine and at his pro day but people are saying he's not physical enough (admittedly not an area of strength for him).

This time last year Sean Taylor was overrated and ran slower than expected (because he was injured and everyone knew it) and he was going to plummet.

Everyone is bluffing now.

The one risk on your draft is we have a great relay team but we might have 2 Cb's who are TOO short, and a WR who was so disruptive in college his coaches and teammates WANTED him to go pro early. Major talent(not Moss mind you) but a real headcase.

Well, I had Johnson pegged as a run-around LB before the Combine, so I'm not hearing anything that I didn't know before. Interesting that Gil Brandt reports that Rowen was at Texas' Pro Day. Could Bo Scaife be a dark-horse second-day pick?

I think your "relay team" response is a little glib--especially for you--considering that the only real risk is on McKenzie and that Barber's risk is limited by the acquisition of Henry. Maybe you'll like this alternate draft a little more:

8. Carlos Rogers, CB, Auburn (maybe a little bit of a reach, but the guy could be special.
44. Chris Henry, WR, West Virginia
75. J.J. Arrington, RB, Cal (How is he still on the board?!
95. Chris McKenzie, CB, Arizona State

Again, shivers. Second-day brings ORG prospect Adam Snyder, DT Sione Pouha, and surprise pick Ryan Fitzpatrick (and you know I'd buy his jersey).

 

[Russ Smith]

Well, I had Johnson pegged as a run-around LB before the Combine, so I'm not hearing anything that I didn't know before. Interesting that Gil Brandt reports that Rowen was at Texas' Pro Day. Could Bo Scaife be a dark-horse second-day pick?

I think your "relay team" response is a little glib--especially for you--considering that the only real risk is on McKenzie and that Barber's risk is limited by the acquisition of Henry. Maybe you'll like this alternate draft a little more:

8. Carlos Rogers, CB, Auburn (maybe a little bit of a reach, but the guy could be special.
44. Chris Henry, WR, West Virginia
75. J.J. Arrington, RB, Cal (How is he still on the board?!
95. Chris McKenzie, CB, Arizona State

Again, shivers. Second-day brings ORG prospect Adam Snyder, DT Sione Pouha, and surprise pick Ryan Fitzpatrick (and you know I'd buy his jersey).

My point was I love speed and even I think you may be overvaluing speed with Pacman and McKenzie and Henry. McKenzie measured at just over 5'8" at the combine, he's very fast and intriguing, I asked about him months ago when I saw his 40 time and vertical jump, but everything I read says he's just too small to ever be more than a nickel CB at best. If you get a nickel CB at 95 that's probably good. Jones is just over 5'9" great athlete but there's a long list of great athletic CB's who struggle in the NFL if they're short. Rogers I would prefer he's got better size and more experience.

Henry I don't know, he just scares the crap out of me he's a great athlete but his 40 time at the combine was quite a bit slower than expected (ran a 4.5 was expected to run sub 4.4) and I read more than one comment that said he really put off NFL people during interviews, he's just not a very likable guy apparently. Major talent, potential steal, but could be a royal pain in the neck too.

My biggest issue is still relying on ANY rookie CB to start.

And yes I do think we're the odds on favorite if we have a good draft, but that's assuming we fix the CB hole. If we don't I think we'll need a hell of a pass rush to cover up our CB's.

As for Johnson, his workouts have been off the charts, he set an NCAA single season record for forced fumbles, and he's precisely the type of LB we're being led to believe Pendergast likes. The one knock on him is can you have a good run defense with OLB's like he and Dansby who are both long lean sideline to sideline guys?

 

[Pariah]

44. Chris Henry, WR, West Virginia

K9--Why do you want a WR in the second rather than a G, DT or even another CB? Do you really see Henry as that much better of a player than what ever else may be on the board at the time?

 

[BigRedMO]

Henry is surplus because the Bills found a guy good for 1,600 yds instead of 1000-1200. Shelton or a 4th round pick for Henry I could see as a back for depth or in case the drafted back does not work out.

I want the Cards to get that kind of difference maker that Buffalo now has. I want to take the risk to get an Ottis Anderson instead of an Adrian Murrell of 1998. He was good for 1000 plus but was not a dominate run over you or run around you Ottis Anderson. I want to see the Cards use the 8th pick on a guy who is going to touch the ball 20-25 times a game instead of a DB. I want a difference maker, a paradigm shifter.

 

[PAQ77]

I think it's absolutely ridiculous if anyone opposes the Henry trade. He's a proven NFL runningback who is still very, very young. If we shore up our back position by giving up only LJ, I'm all for it. Scream what you want about the line being our problem, as true as that may be, at least we won't have to this argument: Is it our back? Is it our line? Duhhhhh, I just don't know! We wouldn't HAVE to wonder.. We would know at that point where our problem is without hesitation. Why not upgrade one of our most important offensive positions to get rid of a disgruntled player??? It frees up our #8 pick to use on a more crucial need, cornerback.


Make the trade...

 

[black]

Henry is surplus because the Bills found a guy good for 1,600 yds instead of 1000-1200. Shelton or a 4th round pick for Henry I could see as a back for depth or in case the drafted back does not work out.

I want the Cards to get that kind of difference maker that Buffalo now has. I want to take the risk to get an Ottis Anderson instead of an Adrian Murrell of 1998. He was good for 1000 plus but was not a dominate run over you or run around you Ottis Anderson. I want to see the Cards use the 8th pick on a guy who is going to touch the ball 20-25 times a game instead of a DB. I want a difference maker, a paradigm shifter.

Another OJ A, would require a rookie rushing title to right? I'm for an upgrade no matter.

 

[kerouac9]

K9--Why do you want a WR in the second rather than a G, DT or even another CB? Do you really see Henry as that much better of a player than what ever else may be on the board at the time?

Yes. I think that the 2nd round is way too early for any OG; you shouldn't be taking interior offensive linemen on the first day of the draft, ever. I don't see any 2-gap DTs that will be good enough for that pick. I would have to think about it if a guy like Fabian Washington were still on the board in the second round.

Otherwise, I think that if Denny Green can handle Chris Henry like he handled Randy Moss (Henry may be even more of a head case, but he also didn't bounce between like 15 universities--something that Moss did, so you have to wonder if people would have been saying the same thing about him had he hung around, say Notre Dame a little longer, Russ), Anquan Boldin is suddenly VERY disposable. The other thing is that teams might be so scared of him (despite his 4.42 and 4.44 40s at his Pro Day--per Gil Brandt) that he falls all the way to us in the third round, a la Dockett last season. If that happens, all bets are off.

A first day of Rogers, F. Washington, C. Henry would be a massive A+++ draft in my book.

 

[Russ Smith]

Because the draft is notorius with 'Lemons' and that used car still has a lot left in the tank in my opinion. Henry would not be a 1,000 yard back but more like a 1,200 yard back and that is better than the 'maybe' the draft might offer. Get Henry and then we can worry about our CB situation and still nothing is stopping the Cards from getting someone like Arrington in the second round.

I may as well continue my henry "bashing" since I personally think we'll probably end up getting him so I may as well speak my mind.

Henry is a good RB, no question, but we're talking about a guy who in 2002 rushed for over 1400 yards, at 4.4 a pop, caught 43 balls, and was "rewarded"
by his team drafting a Rb in the first round, a RB coming off a SEVERE knee injury. Was Buffalo just stupid, or did they have a reason?

If I were a betting man I'd say Buffalo watched Henry fumble 11 times, lose 8, get just over 7 yards per catch, and decided "he's good but he's never going to be a GREAT RB. He fumbles too much, he's not versatile enough, we have a chance to get a kid in McGahee who when healthy COULD be great, let's take the risk." I have no inside connections to Buffalo I'm just guessing what they were thinking but when you see the 02 numbers there's just no logical explanation for why a team with a RB in his SECOND year getting numbers likes that, drafts McGahee in the first round?

I've GOT to believe that someone in Buffalo, likely Donahoe, felt that they had gotten the best season they were ever going to get out of Henry and felt they wanted more.

It's essentially the same issue I have with all the ROnnie Brown lovefest, why was he backing up Cadillac wasn't he bigger, faster and stronger in college too? So how come he wasn't starting? There had to be SOME reason Tuberville started Cadillac.

 

[Shane]

I may as well continue my henry "bashing" since I personally think we'll probably end up getting him so I may as well speak my mind.

Henry is a good RB, no question, but we're talking about a guy who in 2002 rushed for over 1400 yards, at 4.4 a pop, caught 43 balls, and was "rewarded"
by his team drafting a Rb in the first round, a RB coming off a SEVERE knee injury. Was Buffalo just stupid, or did they have a reason?

If I were a betting man I'd say Buffalo watched Henry fumble 11 times, lose 8, get just over 7 yards per catch, and decided "he's good but he's never going to be a GREAT RB. He fumbles too much, he's not versatile enough, we have a chance to get a kid in McGahee who when healthy COULD be great, let's take the risk." I have no inside connections to Buffalo I'm just guessing what they were thinking but when you see the 02 numbers there's just no logical explanation for why a team with a RB in his SECOND year getting numbers likes that, drafts McGahee in the first round?

I've GOT to believe that someone in Buffalo, likely Donahoe, felt that they had gotten the best season they were ever going to get out of Henry and felt they wanted more.

It's essentially the same issue I have with all the ROnnie Brown lovefest, why was he backing up Cadillac wasn't he bigger, faster and stronger in college too? So how come he wasn't starting? There had to be SOME reason Tuberville started Cadillac.

I dunno Russ I think you are looking for something that isnt there. Buffalo could be the type of team to just draft BPA. Their line of thinking could have been Mcgahee regardless of injury is our best value right here and the most talented player left on the board. Granted its a risk but one we want to take. Or they figured that you can never to many good players at one position and would be in good shape for a trade in the future. There could be a # of different reasons Buffalo took him.

Its not like Henry followed that season up with a big dud. He still ran for almost 1400 the next year and another 10+ TDs. His fumbling has gotten better as well.

So even if Buffalo thought that was the best they would ever get it doesnt mean what comes after that is bad either.

 

[Russ Smith]

I dunno Russ I think you are looking for something that isnt there. Buffalo could be the type of team to just draft BPA. Their line of thinking could have been Mcgahee regardless of injury is our best value right here and the most talented player left on the board. Granted its a risk but one we want to take. Or they figured that you can never to many good players at one position and would be in good shape for a trade in the future. There could be a # of different reasons Buffalo took him.

Its not like Henry followed that season up with a big dud. He still ran for almost 1400 the next year and another 10+ TDs. His fumbling has gotten better as well.

So even if Buffalo thought that was the best they would ever get it doesnt mean what comes after that is bad either.

Absolutely could be right, 2003 wasn't a great draft (as we know). He may have figured there's no lock here anyways may as well gamble on a kid with a high ceiling.

The last time the Henry debate was raging I did a bunch of rooting around and came across some stuff that said back in 2001 everyone associated with Buffalo expected them to pick Deuce McAllister with the first pick. Instead they took Nate Clements and then with their SECOND #2 pick took Henry at 58.

The guy detailing this (Buffalo fan) said that in his opinion Donahoe had never forgiven himself because Deuce was the ideal RB for the offense Buffalo WANTED to run, and while Henry is good, he just doesn't give them the same things Deuce would have(outside speed and threat as a receiver). The belief was Donahoe thinks McGahee could be as good as Deuce and that's why he took him.

Just to be clear, if we make this trade I'm not going to pitch a fit and wish Henry ill I DO believe he's better than any RB on our roster. I just don't see how he fits into MY definition of a Denny Green offense. If we get him it DOES free us up to bick BPA "sort of", because I still think we'd pick a CB in that scenario.

I'd much rather keep Shelton or trade him for a pick or even Surtain if Miami were willing, then we'd truly be free to go BPA at 8 since we'd have a CB locked up. But I don't see us doing that so we may as well get Henry and draft a CB #1 and go BPA the rest of the way.