What do we do with Kolb now?

[Darkside]

Pretty sure we're gonna keep him as the backup. I'm merely curious as to whether we can somehow package him in a trade for a backup QB and a LT, is that even possible? We've already eaten his salary. I'm sure it's risky bumping Lindley to 2nd string, but can we package a deal to bring in an aging vet to mentor Lindley and still get some depth at LT?

Whis said in his presser today they were still exploring options on the market to improve the team and would do so whenever a chance presented itself. So all I'm asking is if it's possible or even probable.

I want to get some value from Kolb. It obviously won't be as a starter or QBOTF. Any value would be fine with me.

 

[gmabel830]

Pretty sure we're gonna keep him as the backup. I'm merely curious as to whether we can somehow package him in a trade for a backup QB and a LT, is that even possible? We've already eaten his salary. I'm sure it's risky bumping Lindley to 2nd string, but can we package a deal to bring in an aging vet to mentor Lindley and still get some depth at LT?

Whis said in his presser today they were still exploring options on the market to improve the team and would do so whenever a chance presented itself. So all I'm asking is if it's possible or even probable.

I want to get some value from Kolb. It obviously won't be as a starter or QBOTF. Any value would be fine with me.

If a team trades for him, they wouldn't have to pay him a huge salary this year, but I think his cap hit would transfer over to the new team (included if they cut him later), yes? Plus, there's still plenty of years and dollars left on his deal.

I'm not a cap expert or anything, but I would think a trade is not a possible scenario.

 

[Buckybird]

Nada

 

[Cheesebeef]

Pretty sure we're gonna keep him as the backup. I'm merely curious as to whether we can somehow package him in a trade for a backup QB and a LT, is that even possible? We've already eaten his salary. I'm sure it's risky bumping Lindley to 2nd string, but can we package a deal to bring in an aging vet to mentor Lindley and still get some depth at LT?

Whis said in his presser today they were still exploring options on the market to improve the team and would do so whenever a chance presented itself. So all I'm asking is if it's possible or even probable.

I want to get some value from Kolb. It obviously won't be as a starter or QBOTF. Any value would be fine with me.

uh... we just basically said Kolb couldn't beat out one of the worst QBs in football last year. I think his value is... well... none at this point.

 

[Phrazbit]

His future salary and the cost of cutting him down the road makes him immovable in a trade. I think it would be impossible for the Cardinals to construct an appealing trade with Kolb involved, we have to throw in a pick or something just to offset the huge negative value of his contract vs his talent.

And, salary aside, its hard to fathom a market for him at the moment. Teams know who their one and two QBs are. There were not any notable injuries to starters in the preseason. So, even if you ignore the money, who bothers to trade for a 3rd string QB? It just doesnt happen.

 

[JeffGollin]

It can't hurt to try, but my guess is the only way we end the relationship is by eating the money and independently signing some one we feel will give us a better chance to win - everything considered.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Cut him in the off season.

 

[Darkside]

I don't know sh*t about contracts, but I don't see why we can't pay for his contract (for a team to take him) since we're already paying it, in a sign and trade deal and then pay for the backup QB and LT (which wouldn't be prohibitive, even though we're right up against the salary cap) at a reduced salary. Do teams we trade him to have to contend with his mutli-year deal? Wouldn't they be able to cut him after this year if he sucked?

I agree about the lack of injuries Phrazbit, which makes it more difficult for us to move him, but in a week or two or so that may not be the case. His market value is bad, I agree, it was bad last week before he got benched, but everyone is looking for a QB and everyone thinks they can improve on a bad one.

Maybe I'm grabbing at straws but I seriously don't want to us to eat this money for nothing in return. If we have to it was a colossal mistake. And yes, I know people have been saying that, there's no need to point it out. But I'd like to recoup something at least.

 

[Darkside]

Cut him in the off season.

That's it, that's the only alternative?

 

[Goldfield]

I think we keep him for this year, chances are good he will play at some point and maybe he continues to improve. If not he is gone next year.

 

[Brian in Mesa]

Holder for FG attempts?

 

[Darkside]

Holder for FG attempts?

Highest paid holder ever man. LOL

 

[Darkside]

I think we keep him for this year, chances are good he will play at some point and maybe he continues to improve. If not he is gone next year.

Skelton is going to take a lot of hits, but I'm confident he'll play 16 games. He's huge. And he just got the job, he's not going to let Kolb play over a minor injury, I think he'll play unless he's really badly hurt.

 

[Dr. Jones]

Cut him in the off season.

I would be on board but I think I heard his cap numbers are so poor it wouldn't make a difference.

 

[gmabel830]

I don't know sh*t about contracts, but I don't see why we can't pay for his contract (for a team to take him) since we're already paying it, in a sign and trade deal and then pay for the backup QB and LT (which wouldn't be prohibitive, even though we're right up against the salary cap) at a reduced salary. Do teams we trade him to have to contend with his mutli-year deal? Wouldn't they be able to cut him after this year if he sucked?

Teams can't do as you are suggesting, and it is important to remember that the amount of money you pay a player in a given year is not equal to the amount that he counts against the cap. Here is a breakdown of how Kolb's contract is allocated from a cap number perspective:

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/arizona-cardinals/kevin-kolb/

If a team was to trade for him, they would take over the contract, and though they wouldn't be paying him a lot of money next year - they would be on the hook for over $50M of cap space for Kolb over the life of his contract. Is any team willing to commit $50M of cap space for him? His contract is 100% untradeable.

If we (or any other team who had his contract) cut him after this year, I believe we would be on the hook for the remainder of the original signing bonus (second column) and portion of the $7M roster bonus he got this offseason that remains on the cap (a portion of the 3rd column) -- something over $10M of "dead cap money" just to get rid of the guy. No team is going to give Kolb a one year audition and then cut him and have over $10M of dead cap money on the books for one year of him being a backup (and no one is going to pay him a $9M salary next year if he's the backup all year - us included). Us cutting our losses after this season and taking the huge cap hit that will come with it is by far the most likely scenario.

 

[Goldfield]

Skelton is going to take a lot of hits, but I'm confident he'll play 16 games. He's huge. And he just got the job, he's not going to let Kolb play over a minor injury, I think he'll play unless he's really badly hurt.

I am glad Skelton is getting a chance to show if he has improved. I think the guy can be a pretty solid qb. I don't think he is a superstar. But I think if he is smart he can become a game manager and take what the defense gives him.

I hope now that he is the starter he has alittle more fire in his belly and turned up his game.

 

[Phrazbit]

I don't know sh*t about contracts, but I don't see why we can't pay for his contract (for a team to take him) since we're already paying it, in a sign and trade deal and then pay for the backup QB and LT (which wouldn't be prohibitive, even though we're right up against the salary cap) at a reduced salary. Do teams we trade him to have to contend with his mutli-year deal? Wouldn't they be able to cut him after this year if he sucked?

I agree about the lack of injuries Phrazbit, which makes it more difficult for us to move him, but in a week or two or so that may not be the case. His market value is bad, I agree, it was bad last week before he got benched, but everyone is looking for a QB and everyone thinks they can improve on a bad one.

Maybe I'm grabbing at straws but I seriously don't want to us to eat this money for nothing in return. If we have to it was a colossal mistake. And yes, I know people have been saying that, there's no need to point it out. But I'd like to recoup something at least.

His cap hit in 2013 is set at 14.9 million. We cant pay for that, and no one would take him at even 1/3rd of that rate. Just to cut him after the year it will cost (I beleive k9 calculated) 7.5 million on next year's cap. Its a really bad situation that no team would willingly inherit.

He literally has negative value. To trade him away we would have to give up further assets because basically we are trying to convince a team to take 7+ mil in dead money on their 2013 cap. Whats that worth in compensation? The Cards would be in the position of either taking back a contract as equally awful as Kolb's or of throwing in picks along with Kolb just to be rid of him.

And even if there are injuries I doubt any team could convince themselves that Kolb with no practice and no knowledge of their scheme is worth picking up over their current reserves.

It just wont happen. Anyone who has a morbid curiosity about Kolb could satisfy it next off-season when the Cardinals waive him.

 

[Phrazbit]

I would be on board but I think I heard his cap numbers are so poor it wouldn't make a difference.

The cap hit for cutting him will be brutal (7.5 according to k9) but no where near as bad as the 14.9 mil cap hit for keeping him.

Unless he regains the job and is stellar out there then he will be gone.

 

[gmabel830]

The cap hit for cutting him will be brutal (7.5 according to k9) but no where near as bad as the 14.9 mil cap hit for keeping him.

Unless he regains the job and is stellar out there then he will be gone.

I'd have to go back and read K9's original post, as he is probably smarter about this stuff than I am, but according to the web link that I posted, I think it would be well over 7.5. From a salary cap perspective, we would still owe $6M of his initial $10M signing bonus, and $5.1M of his $7M roster bonus (I see only $1.9M of that bonus counting against the cap this year in that link). So, I see it being something over $11M - but I have no idea if that link I was using is even accurate.

EDIT - here's K9's thread: http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb...e-in-2013-no-matter-how-bad-he-is-182588.html

He calculated $13.6M of dead money that he would cost us next year. Given that his cap hit would only be $14.9M next year, K9 hypothesized that it might just be easier to keep him next year. Only flaw in that theory that I see is that he is actually making a $9M salary next year, and not sure the Bidwill's will want to actually pay the guy $9M out of their pockets next year vs. just cutting bait and taking the cap hit.

 

[Darkside]

Teams can't do as you are suggesting, and it is important to remember that the amount of money you pay a player in a given year is not equal to the amount that he counts against the cap. Here is a breakdown of how Kolb's contract is allocated from a cap number perspective:

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/arizona-cardinals/kevin-kolb/

If a team was to trade for him, they would take over the contract, and though they wouldn't be paying him a lot of money next year - they would be on the hook for over $50M of cap space for Kolb over the life of his contract. Is any team willing to commit $50M of cap space for him? His contract is 100% untradeable.

If we (or any other team who had his contract) cut him after this year, I believe we would be on the hook for the remainder of the original signing bonus (second column) and portion of the $7M roster bonus he got this offseason that remains on the cap (a portion of the 3rd column) -- something over $10M of "dead cap money" just to get rid of the guy. No team is going to give Kolb a one year audition and then cut him and have over $10M of dead cap money on the books for one year of him being a backup (and no one is going to pay him a $9M salary next year if he's the backup all year - us included). Us cutting our losses after this season and taking the huge cap hit that will come with it is by far the most likely scenario.

Thanks for the clarification. It's ridic. I don't know who made this deal but it's so supremely bad it surpasses everything else we did this offseason (including signing Campbell and restructuring other contracts). I cannot for the life of me remember the guy whom they fired and replaced, but I wonder if it was his deal. It's just so spectacularly bad.

 

[Phrazbit]

I'd have to go back and read K9's original post, as he is probably smarter about this stuff than I am, but according to the web link that I posted, I think it would be well over 7.5. From a salary cap perspective, we would still owe $6M of his initial $10M signing bonus, and $5.1M of his $7M roster bonus (I see only $1.9M of that bonus counting against the cap this year in that link). So, I see it being something over $11M - but I have no idea if that link I was using is even accurate.

I believe with the new CBA they are able to spread it out over 2 years (which could be how k9 arrived at his #). Either way, you take the cap hit and dump him, because it would be similarly brutal to dump him the next year but you would have added another 9 million in salary to the pain.

Really depressing to hash out these numbers. They should have released him in March... they could have gotten out of it so much cheaper. Makes me sick.

 

[Darkside]

I am glad Skelton is getting a chance to show if he has improved. I think the guy can be a pretty solid qb. I don't think he is a superstar. But I think if he is smart he can become a game manager and take what the defense gives him.

I hope now that he is the starter he has alittle more fire in his belly and turned up his game.

Totally agree. I'm thinking he'll carry himself and play totally different as a starter. I wanted Kolb, but I always (since we got him) was high on Skelton. He's starting sooner than I would have preferred, because coming out of a small school and making the mistakes he's made, I figured he needed more time. I said this before, but he reminds me of the project/future QB's they used to groom back in the old days 20 years ago, where a QB was allowed time to develop.

I hope you're right, good post. Let's just all hope Skelton has the fire and passion to explode this year.

 

[gmabel830]

I believe with the new CBA they are able to spread it out over 2 years (which could be how k9 arrived at his #). Either way, you take the cap hit and dump him, because it would be similarly brutal to dump him the next year but you would have added another 9 million in salary to the pain.

Really depressing to hash out these numbers. They should have released him in March... they could have gotten out of it so much cheaper. Makes me sick.

I think they can allocate at least some of the dead cap money into 2014 - but honestly, wouldn't it just be easier to take the hit next year and move on? The longer dead money stays on the cap, the less money you have to actually invest in the real players you are putting on the field. Or, you do what other teams have done and continually put yourself in a bad future cap position to field a competitive team now - and eventually have to completely blow up your team.

 

[desertdawg]

I think we may have been shopping Kolb around for a minute...with no takers. It would explain the not naming which QB was starting. Contract shmontakk, deals get redone all the time, especially if Kolb wants to bounce after being bested by a 17th round QB. I don't see us getting much value for Kolb, but the money wouldn't hold anything back IMO.

 

[Darkside]

His cap hit in 2013 is set at 14.9 million. We cant pay for that, and no one would take him at even 1/3rd of that rate. Just to cut him after the year it will cost (I beleive k9 calculated) 7.5 million on next year's cap. Its a really bad situation that no team would willingly inherit.

He literally has negative value. To trade him away we would have to give up further assets because basically we are trying to convince a team to take 7+ mil in dead money on their 2013 cap. Whats that worth in compensation? The Cards would be in the position of either taking back a contract as equally awful as Kolb's or of throwing in picks along with Kolb just to be rid of him.

And even if there are injuries I doubt any team could convince themselves that Kolb with no practice and no knowledge of their scheme is worth picking up over their current reserves.

It just wont happen. Anyone who has a morbid curiosity about Kolb could satisfy it next off-season when the Cardinals waive him.

Agree, thanks for clarifying. I hadn't paid much attention to the contract issue, I rarely do. He's like an anchor. That's clear. Eventually we'll be able to cut the line and be free of it. But what a waste. Worst move this regime has made in my opinion, by far.