What do we do with Kolb now?

[Darkside]

I believe with the new CBA they are able to spread it out over 2 years (which could be how k9 arrived at his #). Either way, you take the cap hit and dump him, because it would be similarly brutal to dump him the next year but you would have added another 9 million in salary to the pain.

Really depressing to hash out these numbers. They should have released him in March... they could have gotten out of it so much cheaper. Makes me sick.

Yep, ya'll are making me sick just talking about it. I honestly never pay attention to cap numbers until it negatively impacts us. So depressing.

And I've been watching football forever, and I never pay attention to contracts/or salary cap.

 

[DoTheDew]

I would be on board but I think I heard his cap numbers are so poor it wouldn't make a difference.

FWIW if we cut him after June 1st, 2013 to spread his hit over 2 years, it's not really much of a hit at all. If we cut him before June 1st, we'll pay the price for it with less cap space.

 

[joeshmo]

His cap hit in 2013 is set at 14.9 million. We cant pay for that, and no one would take him at even 1/3rd of that rate. Just to cut him after the year it will cost (I beleive k9 calculated) 7.5 million on next year's cap. Its a really bad situation that no team would willingly inherit.

He literally has negative value. To trade him away we would have to give up further assets because basically we are trying to convince a team to take 7+ mil in dead money on their 2013 cap. Whats that worth in compensation? The Cards would be in the position of either taking back a contract as equally awful as Kolb's or of throwing in picks along with Kolb just to be rid of him.

And even if there are injuries I doubt any team could convince themselves that Kolb with no practice and no knowledge of their scheme is worth picking up over their current reserves.

It just wont happen. Anyone who has a morbid curiosity about Kolb could satisfy it next off-season when the Cardinals waive him.

Hate to do this but none of that is true.

A team that trades for him would not have any dead cap space in 2013 if they cut him. The dead cap space comes from the pro-rated bonus money that we have already paid out and would all count towards this years cap(our cap). If traded, the team that takes on his contract is only liable for the base salary and any bonuses yet to be paid. If a team that trades for Kolb cuts him 2013, they would have zero dead cap space and would get the whole 9 mill in base salary back to their cap.

A team could very easily trade for Kolb, give a low round pick or a conditional pick. They would only be on the hook for his 1 mill salary this year and if they so chose to keep him in 2013 9 mill plus workout bonus or cut him with no cap impact. As for us being able to trade him I am not so sure we have the cap space to absorb the pro rated bonus money on our cap, don't currently know our cap situation after the cuts. If we could it would come at the cost of any sort of extension we may have wanted to do this season, and with next years cap going to be flat again with zero to no increase in total value that would not be smart.

And cutting him now just to spread the cap hit over this year and next would again hurt our chances of extensions, and we would still have dead cap space in 2013. The FAR better fiscal responsible thing to do is to keep him for 1 mill this year and cut him next year before his workout bonus is due.

 

[gmabel830]

FWIW if we cut him after June 1st, 2013 to spread his hit over 2 years, it's not really much of a hit at all. If we cut him before June 1st, we'll pay the price for it with less cap space.

It would theoretically be like $6-7 mil each year in 2013 & 2014 (I'm not sure if you can allocate the dead cap money evenly - tried to do a little research on it but couldn't find the exact answer).

$6-7M a year won't cripple a franchise, but I'd hardly call it "not really much of a hit at all". That was probably true when his original $7M bonus he got this offseason was going to count 100% against this year's cap, but we ended up spreading that amount over the duration of the contract due to us being in a very bad spot with our salary cap early in the offseason.

 

[gmabel830]

Hate to do this but none of that is true.

A team that trades for him would not have any dead cap space in 2013 if they cut him. The dead cap space comes from the pro-rated bonus money that we have already paid out and would all count towards this years cap. If traded, the team that takes on his contract is only liable for the base salary and any bonuses yet to be paid. If a team that trades for Kolb cuts him 2013, they would have zero dead cap space and would get the whole 9 mill in base salary back to their cap.

A team could very easily trade for Kolb, give a low round pick or a conditional pick. They would only be on the hook for his 1 mill salary this year and if they so chose to keep him in 2013 9 mill plus workout bonus or cut him with no cap impact. As for us being able to trade him I am not so sure we have the cap space to absorb the pro rated bonus money on our cap, don't currently know our cap situation after the cuts. If we could it would come at the cost of any sort of extension we may have wanted to do this season, and with next years cap going to be flat again with zero to no increase in total value that would not be smart.

Good call, thanks for the clarification (makes total sense in hindsight) -- I guess that's why you are the "resident capologist"!!

So basically, even if we trade him, we are still screwed on our salary cap. And, is anyone willing to give anything of value for Kevin Kolb to be a one year backup? Because no one is going to pay him a $9M salary next year. And another good point made is that I don't think we can spread his cap hit over 2 seasons if we trade him vs. cut him next offseason, so even if we could do this it would probably impair our ability to do another business (so much for that D-Wash extension).

Great post joeshmo!

 

[Phrazbit]

I think we may have been shopping Kolb around for a minute...with no takers. It would explain the not naming which QB was starting. Contract shmontakk, deals get redone all the time, especially if Kolb wants to bounce after being bested by a 17th round QB. I don't see us getting much value for Kolb, but the money wouldn't hold anything back IMO.

Problem is Kolb has (as gmel pointed out) 11 million in guarantees coming his way. I dont doubt Kolb would be fine with restructuring the base salary that he knows he wont ever get, but he isnt going to give up that 11 mil in guarantees when he is in a situation where holding a job the rest of his career is going to be rough, AND he will be getting that 11 million no matter what the Cardinals do with him. So he can get waived next summer, get that entire 11 million and try to get a backup job somewhere else.

So unless Kolb is taking bath salts and is willing to give up what represents most of the money he will make over the remainder of his career, then he is untradeable.

 

[joeshmo]

Good call, thanks for the clarification (makes total sense in hindsight) -- I guess that's why you are the "resident capologist"!!

So basically, even if we trade him, we are still screwed on our salary cap. So then the question becomes - is anyone willing to give anything of value for Kevin Kolb to be a one year backup? Because no one is going to pay him a $9M salary next year.

We are way more screwed if we cut him or trade him now then we are if we just cut him after the season. So just keep him and cut him in February is my opinion.

 

[gmabel830]

Problem is Kolb has (as gmel pointed out) 11 million in guarantees coming his way. I dont doubt Kolb would be fine with restructuring the base salary that he knows he wont ever get, but he isnt going to give up that 11 mil in guarantees when he is in a situation where holding a job the rest of his career is going to be rough, AND he will be getting that 11 million no matter what the Cardinals do with him. So he can get waived next summer, get that entire 11 million and try to get a backup job somewhere else.

So unless Kolb is taking bath salts and is willing to give up what represents most of the money he will make over the remainder of his career, then he is untradeable.

That's way too close to "smel" for my liking!!!

 

[gmabel830]

We are way more screwed if we cut him or trade him now then we are if we just cut him after the season. So just keep him and cut him in February is my opinion.

Yep, that's the unfortunate reality. That's the best way to minimize the damage (which is what it is at this point)

 

[Crazy Canuck]

His total major bonus' was $10M signing and $7M this off-season. Under the CAP the Cards have already for 4 of the intial 10 and a prorated share of the 7 this season. What they would be splitting over two years is the remainder, about 6 per year. Hardly a crippler.

The Cards would be responsible for all bonus' owed in any transaction. The new team is simply responsible for future liabilities and, no doubt, would renegotiate his deal.

We would quite possibly forfeit any opportunity to extend D-wash or LSH if we did this.

Simply put: We're stuck and he has more value to the Cards in 2012

 

[Phrazbit]

Hate to do this but none of that is true.

A team that trades for him would not have any dead cap space in 2013 if they cut him. The dead cap space comes from the pro-rated bonus money that we have already paid out and would all count towards this years cap(our cap). If traded, the team that takes on his contract is only liable for the base salary and any bonuses yet to be paid. If a team that trades for Kolb cuts him 2013, they would have zero dead cap space and would get the whole 9 mill in base salary back to their cap.

A team could very easily trade for Kolb, give a low round pick or a conditional pick. They would only be on the hook for his 1 mill salary this year and if they so chose to keep him in 2013 9 mill plus workout bonus or cut him with no cap impact. As for us being able to trade him I am not so sure we have the cap space to absorb the pro rated bonus money on our cap, don't currently know our cap situation after the cuts. If we could it would come at the cost of any sort of extension we may have wanted to do this season, and with next years cap going to be flat again with zero to no increase in total value that would not be smart.

And cutting him now just to spread the cap hit over this year and next would again hurt our chances of extensions, and we would still have dead cap space in 2013. The FAR better fiscal responsible thing to do is to keep him for 1 mill this year and cut him next year before his workout bonus is due.

Well, then it makes trading or waiving him this year an impossibility. We cant take that hit with our current cap.

 

[Mainstreet]

Just curious. What if he went down with an injury. Would this effect anything?

 

[gmabel830]

Just curious. What if he went down with an injury? Would this effect anything.

I don't think so - it's all the salary cap of accounting for bonus money that has already been paid to Kolb.

 

[Phrazbit]

Just curious. What if he went down with an injury. Would this effect anything?

Throwing him on the IR would, I think, clear a marginal amount of cap space but it wouldnt alter much else.

 

[DoTheDew]

It would theoretically be like $6-7 mil each year in 2013 & 2014 (I'm not sure if you can allocate the dead cap money evenly - tried to do a little research on it but couldn't find the exact answer).

$6-7M a year won't cripple a franchise, but I'd hardly call it "not really much of a hit at all". That was probably true when his original $7M bonus he got this offseason was going to count 100% against this year's cap, but we ended up spreading that amount over the duration of the contract due to us being in a very bad spot with our salary cap early in the offseason.

It's not much at all when you factor in his salary for those seasons.

2013: $9 million (+ $2 million roster bonus due in March), 2014-2016: $10 million,

If you cut him before June 1st (before the March bonus actually), you take the 14m or whatever cap hit minus the 9m salary gained for a net loss of 5m on the cap. If you cut him after June 1st you pay the 9m cap hit (7m+2m roster bonus) minus the 9m salary for a cap neutral cut. The following year you have a 7m cap hit minus the 10m salary saved for a 3m cap gain. So cutting him after June 1st is the only scenario that doesn't reduce our cap space. Cutting him before March saves the most money, but it reduces the amount of room you have to extend DWash/sign FAs. It's going to depend on what the cap is next year. If we can afford to cut him before March and still keep the players on our roster that we want, we will so that 2014 will have 7m more capspace than if we cut him after June 1st.

 

[gmabel830]

His total major bonus' was $10M signing and $7M this off-season. Under the CAP the Cards have already for 4 of the intial 10 and a prorated share of the 7 this season. What they would be splitting over two years is the remainder, about 6 per year. Hardly a crippler.

The Cards would be responsible for all bonus' owed in any transaction. The new team is simply responsible for future liabilities and, no doubt, would renegotiate his deal.

We would quite possibly forfeit any opportunity to extend D-wash or LSH if we did this.

Simply put: We're stuck and he has more value to the Cards in 2012

I don't think it cripples the franchise, but here is a list of the cap number for each player this season: http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/arizona-cardinals/cap-hit/

Only 2 players have a cap hit of over 6M (Fitz/Dockett). If Kolb has a ~6M cap hit in 2013 and 2014, he's probably among the top 5 players - for a guy not on the team. It's not a crippler, but it does have an impact.

 

[gmabel830]

It's not much at all when you factor in his salary for those seasons.



If you cut him before June 1st (before the March bonus actually), you take the 14m or whatever caphit minus the 9m salary gained for a net loss of 5m on the cap. If you cut him after June 1st you pay the 9m cap hit (including roster bonus) minus the 9m salary for a cap neutral cut. The following year you have a 7m cap hit minus the 10m salary saved for a 3m cap gain. So yes, cutting him after June 1st is the only scenario that doesn't reduce out cap space.

Fair points, but you still need to pay someone else to play QB for this team (if Skelton blows up, he'll need to get paid -- or we go with a rookie who probably would have a decent cap number)

 

[DoTheDew]

Fair points, but you still need to pay someone else to play QB for this team (if Skelton blows up, he'll need to get paid -- or we go with a rookie who probably would have a decent cap number)

If you keep him, he counts over 12m against the cap next year (9m salary+2m Roster Bonus+1/6th of his total signing bonus) as opposed to 9m if cut him after June 1st. So then it's a question of if you can find someone for 3m or less that you like as much as a backup QB as him.

Ideally, Lindley earns the job and we can go with some vet minimum guy (Bartel?) as the 3rd QB.

 

[gmabel830]

If you keep him, he counts over 12m against the cap next year (9m salary+2m Roster Bonus+1/6th of his total signing bonus) as opposed to 9m if cut him after June 1st. So then it's a question of if you can find someone for 3m or less that you like as much as a backup QB as him.

Ideally, Lindley earns the job and we can go with some vet minimum guy (Bartel?) as the 3rd QB.

Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting that we keep him - just challenging the notion that the dead cap money we'll have is "no big deal".

And let's not forget that most people think that this team isn't going to be very good next year (5-8 win range easily won the poll). We can probably cut Kolb, extend the guys we want to extend, and plug the holes -- but the dead cap money is money we can't spend actually improving the talent on the field.

 

[Darkside]

Hate to do this but none of that is true.

A team that trades for him would not have any dead cap space in 2013 if they cut him. The dead cap space comes from the pro-rated bonus money that we have already paid out and would all count towards this years cap(our cap). If traded, the team that takes on his contract is only liable for the base salary and any bonuses yet to be paid. If a team that trades for Kolb cuts him 2013, they would have zero dead cap space and would get the whole 9 mill in base salary back to their cap.

A team could very easily trade for Kolb, give a low round pick or a conditional pick. They would only be on the hook for his 1 mill salary this year and if they so chose to keep him in 2013 9 mill plus workout bonus or cut him with no cap impact. As for us being able to trade him I am not so sure we have the cap space to absorb the pro rated bonus money on our cap, don't currently know our cap situation after the cuts. If we could it would come at the cost of any sort of extension we may have wanted to do this season, and with next years cap going to be flat again with zero to no increase in total value that would not be smart.

And cutting him now just to spread the cap hit over this year and next would again hurt our chances of extensions, and we would still have dead cap space in 2013. The FAR better fiscal responsible thing to do is to keep him for 1 mill this year and cut him next year before his workout bonus is due.

Nice post, thanks.

 

[Darkside]

Well, then it makes trading or waiving him this year an impossibility. We cant take that hit with our current cap.

I agree, after reading all these capologists. Pisses me off. We have to eat everything we paid for him, can't even trade him.

 

[Phrazbit]

Oh don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting that we keep him - just challenging the notion that the dead cap money we'll have is "no big deal".

And let's not forget that most people think that this team isn't going to be very good next year (5-8 win range easily won the poll). We can probably cut Kolb, extend the guys we want to extend, and plug the holes -- but the dead cap money is money we can't spend actually improving the talent on the field.

The dead money isnt good but its more affordable than paying him in 2013. And its only delaying the inevitable. You dont cut him next summer and instead pay him that crazy contract, now in 2014 you still have him with an insane salary figure and are still looking at roughly 6-7 million just to kick him to the curb.

Delaying it only makes it worse. Do it as soon as the cap allows and get it over with. Restructuring that bonus in march (and paying it at all) was unconscionably stupid.

 

[gmabel830]

The dead money isnt good but its more affordable than paying him in 2013. And its only delaying the inevitable. You dont cut him next summer and instead pay him that crazy contract, now in 2014 you still have him with an insane salary figure and are still looking at roughly 6-7 million just to kick him to the curb.

Delaying it only makes it worse. Do it as soon as the cap allows and get it over with. Restructuring that bonus in march (and paying it at all) was unconscionably stupid.

Agree on all accounts -- I was never suggesting we don't cut him after this season. Was only disagreeing with those who said that doing so wouldn't be that big a deal. It still will have an impact on what this team can do to improve going forward, but by no means do you pay Kolb $9M next year.

 

[Darkside]

I'm sorry I started this thread, it's mega depressing.

 

[CardsFan88]

I say if you can find a capable backup. Garrard, Wallace, Moore...then cut bait when you sign any of those guys. It all depends on who is out there.

If any of the above were available, I'd do it. No way Kolb is on this team next year. If you already know that, and we should at this point, then it's best to see if a potential backup for you is available now.

Skelton should have enough leeway for the first half of the season or thereabouts, and anyone who we might replace him would have enough time to learn the system enough by then to compete.

Of course I think the Cardinals will keep him for the 2012 season, but, who knows. If they see a guy they like, maybe not. Another advantage of naming a starter on the day of cuts, is we have time to make a decision regarding someone else, and Kolb doesn't learn he's not the starter with a pink slip, but by being told he's not the starter. If something else happens after that then the Cards at least did him that courtesy.

I think they'll keep him, but I wouldn't bet on that. Again, if someone is available, and zero sum there are plenty of options, but realistically just a few that make sense, then make the move.

Even if Kolb comes in say in game 6....plays the rest of the season without injuries or concussions sidelining him. Doesn't self destruct like most of the preseason it looked like he was doing, and threw 15 td's for 2500 yards, maybe more, he wouldn't be kept imo.

With him not being the starter, and knowing his flaws, and our line being what it is (hopefully better with the recent tweaking), I don't think there is a realistic shot for him to play well enough to earn his salary next year.

...and exactly Joe, that any team that were to trade (or pick up on waivers) would only be subject to the base salary and any unpaid future bonuses. This makes a trade for Kolb a much better deal then what we currently have to deal with. But that said, who would want Kolb for even that much money? The league has seemingly figured him out, and while I'm sure he could find his way onto a roster for around the minimum, no one is going to pay him his base numbers he's receiving on the contract for the next four years.

Also since we'd be spreading the cap hit over two years most likely, I think it's better to take the hit this year and next, rather than next year and the year after. We have guys needing to be re-signed like Wash by the end of next year, and PP the year after. I don't want to lose PP because of Kolb's dead money still hitting our cap in 2014.

But again, we'll probably keep him, so.....