What does Frank want. . .

[JCSunsfan]

in a center.

He wants a big burly finesse center, that can run the break after he rebounds and outlets the ball. He needs to be able to block shots, lay a body on Shaq, and shoot the 15 footer with a dead eye.

He needs to be fairly young, with some upside, but 8-10 years of experience is also essential. He has to be a defensive juggernaut that blocks shots but doesn't get up in the air too often so he doesn't commit too many fouls.

He needs to produce rebounds, points, and jumpshots whether or not he gets any minutes.

Until he can find this guy, he'll just play skill ball. After all, these kind of guys are rather tough to come by.

 

[BC867]

Originally posted by JCSunsfan
in a center.

He wants a big burly finesse center, that can run the break after he rebounds and outlets the ball. He needs to be able to block shots, lay a body on Shaq, and shoot the 15 footer with a dead eye.

He needs to be fairly young, with some upside, but 8-10 years of experience is also essential. He has to be a defensive juggernaut that blocks shots but doesn't get up in the air too often so he doesn't commit too many fouls.

He needs to produce rebounds, points, and jumpshots whether or not he gets any minutes.

Until he can find this guy, he'll just play skill ball. After all, these kind of guys are rather tough to come by.

Your post is right on . . . but did it really begin with Frank Johnson?

How about Scott Skiles, or Danny Ainge, or Paul Westphall. Or Dick Van Arsdale or John Wetzel. Or John MacLeod, and his 212-lb Center, Alvan Adams.

Cotton Fitzsimmons seems to be the only Coach in the Suns history who knew the value of size in the frontcourt, but he got to use it only against the Suns, while Coaching the KC Kings.

Can our frustration of playing Forwards at Center be pinned on 4QF, and all of the other Head Coaches in our 35-year history?

Or is it the doing of the Common Denominator? I think his name might translate to Spastic Gelatin . . . no wait, that's Colon Jello . . . no, it's Colangelo. That's it.

 

[JCSunsfan]

In JC's defense, his worst personnel moves have always involved trying to get the elusive center.

Rick Robey, Hot Rod Williams, Luc Longley, and many more.

The best true center the Suns probably ever had was James Edwards (maybe Neal Walk) but he got dealt in the drug scandal house-cleaning.

If this Tony Battie thing is for real, what it shows is that they believe the Memphis trade was a mistake. The reason for the Memphis trade was cap room. Now they give up that cap room for a marginal center. I think I'd rather have big Jake.

At lease we have a decent pf. A pf that plays inside is almost as rare for the Suns as a center.

Haven't you and I had this same conversation before?

 

[3rdside]

If this Tony Battie thing is for real, what it shows is that they believe the Memphis trade was a mistake. The reason for the Memphis trade was cap room. Now they give up that cap room for a marginal center. I think I'd rather have big Jake.

I was going to say the same thing...

So we lose Bo and Jake and save a million bucks this season and then, by virtue of having Knight instead of Bo we save ten million dollars next season. The cost though is that we lose a starting centre and a forward who could fill a role.

If, however, we pick up Battie, whatever savings gain we made with Bo is negated by this new trade. From memory, Bo and Battie have three years left on their contracts so we are precisely no better off financially speaking.

But, we do get a serviceable centre (as far as i can tell). The question is then, does (assuming no one else goes to Boston as well) swapping Bo Outlaw and Jake Tsakalidis for essentially Tony Battie sound fair to you?

I'm not sure myself though having Battie and Voskhul is probably better than Tsakalidis and Voskhul. Bo's minutes might have also been cut as we now have Zarko, so he may have been an irrelevant player anyway. The downside of course is that he brought a lot of hustle to the club which seems to be missing from the team this preseason. Not to mention the chemistry disruption that comes from making trades such as these.

It's definitely debatable.

One more thing to consider - would Boston even make this trade considering how badly we we jipped them by taking JJ? I'm not sure they would.

 

[capologist]

Originally posted by the3rdside
One more thing to consider - would Boston even make this trade considering how badly we we jipped them by taking JJ?

That’s nothing compared to how they gypped us by taking DJ.

 

[3rdside]

Oh. Didn't realise they had robbed us already. Only been a suns fan since the Hardaway trade. (But am now stuck with the suns for life; for better or for worse )

 

[hcsilla]

Originally posted by the3rdside
The question is then, does (assuming no one else goes to Boston as well) swapping Bo Outlaw and Jake Tsakalidis for essentially Tony Battie sound fair to you?

It does.I really like Tony Battie.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by JCSunsfan
What does Frank want in a center?

Easy.

He doesn't want one.

 

[Errntknght]

BC867 was certainly on target when he traced the 'soft middle' of the Suns back to the Colangeli - if nothing else they choose the coaches, and they only choose ones that think the same way they do - at least, ones that won't stand up to them if they happen to think differently. As far as I can remember, and I go back to when the Suns began, there's never been as much as a rumor that the Suns were considering an established, strong minded coach.

In their defense I will say that they have never passed on an obviously promising center in the draft - like Shaq, DRob, or Hakeem. On the other hand they have never maneuvered to be in position to draft one. It isn't just the spectacular failures like Robey and Longley that show their inability to choose big men it's all the minor mistakes... John Shumate who was brawny and athletic but had a bad heart. Truck Robinson was supposed to be a guy that would give us toughness inside but though he looked the part, he was a jump shooter who shied away from contact. Then there was Xavier McDaniel who was tough but Cotton wouldn't play him. We drafted Mark Eaton and Charles Jones and let them both go. Armon Gilliam(#2 pick) had the body for it but he was a finiesse player - much like Rodney Rogers. Around the same time as Gilliam we had some other good picks that we used on bigs, Ed Pinckney(10), William Bedford(6) and Tim Perry(7) - Bedford was a total disaster while the other two were just not strong enough. Then we drafted Jayson Williams who was actually tough inside but we bungled signing him.

To me, drafting CJ at #22 was a typical Suns minor mistake - it was a fluke year and there were several promising 'bigs' still on board. Boozer and Gadzuric for sure and, I think, Baxter. None of them would solve our problem at center in a single stroke but we'd be better stocked with interior players. I'd be a lot less concerned about Amare playing C, if we had a sturdy guy like Boozer next to him at PF - instead of Marion or JJ.

 

[Joe Mama]

IMO Casey Jacobsen is a bust. But in the Phoenix Suns defense they needed a sharpshooter as badly as anything in that draft. There outside shooting was just as big a problem and is their lack of an inside presence in 2001-02. It allowed opposing teams to collapse the lane making it much tougher for guys like Marbury and Shawn Marion to go inside.

They simply reached too far for Casey Jacobsen. It's now quite clear they would have been better off drafting somebody like Gadzuric or Carlos Boozer or Prince and signing a sharpshooter.

Joe Mama

 

[capologist]

Originally posted by Errntknght
In their defense I will say that they have never passed on an obviously promising center in the draft - like Shaq, DRob, or Hakeem. On the other hand they have never maneuvered to be in position to draft one.

They did pass on Jermaine O’Neal.

 

[Phill11]

We need to bring back Oliver Miller!!
LOL

 

[Joe Mama]

Originally posted by capologist
They did pass on Jermaine O’Neal.

I don't think he was an "obviously promising" center at the time he was drafted. They also passed on Zydrunas Ilgauskas in 1996 (the same year). Of course they did get Steve Nash.

Joe Mama

 

[JCSunsfan]

JO was a toothpick of a hs kid when he was drafted. He was the poster child for why a kid should go to college. He sat on the end of the Portland bench for several season before he started to blossom.

He was not even promised to BE a center, let alone a promising one.

 

[JCSunsfan]

This whole Suns center thing does make you wonder if Jerry made a deal with the devil somewhere along the line.

Jerry: "Give me a team, an NBA team and I'll do whatever you ask"

Devil: "OK, I'll give you a team, but on one condition. You'll never have a true center. I'll use whatever means necessary."

Lew Alcindor--coin flip.
Nick Vanos--plane crash.
James Edwards--drug scandal
Hot Rod Williams--car accident
Oliver Miller-pizza addiction
Dikembe Mutombo--league disapproved trade


You gotta admit, that list goes beyond just not wanting a center. That list is almost proof of a curse.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

refresh my memory on the deke thing........

 

[JCSunsfan]

It was a 3 way trade involving Denver, Houston, and Phoenix. Basically:

Denver was going to get Cassell, Horry, and Brown.

We were going to get Mutombo.

Houston was going to get Barkley.

It was agreed upon by all parties--even Chucky--but for some reason, the league disallowed the trade. I can't remember exactly why.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Originally posted by JCSunsfan
This whole Suns center thing does make you wonder if Jerry made a deal with the devil somewhere along the line.

Jerry: "Give me a team, an NBA team and I'll do whatever you ask"

Devil: "OK, I'll give you a team, but on one condition. You'll never have a true center. I'll use whatever means necessary."

Lew Alcindor--coin flip.
Nick Vanos--plane crash.
James Edwards--drug scandal
Hot Rod Williams--car accident
Oliver Miller-pizza addiction
Dikembe Mutombo--league disapproved trade


You gotta admit, that list goes beyond just not wanting a center. That list is almost proof of a curse.

we lost david robinson on a coin flip also. no one ever remembers that. we got the hammer instead. woo-friggin'-hoo.

 

[sunsfn]

JCSunsfan said,
-----------------------------------------------------
It was a 3 way trade involving Denver, Houston, and Phoenix. Basically:

Denver was going to get Cassell, Horry, and Brown.

We were going to get Mutombo.

Houston was going to get Barkley.

It was agreed upon by all parties--even Chucky--but for some reason, the league disallowed the trade. I can't remember exactly why.
---------------------------------------

They did not allow it because there was lots of talk about the trade and the league said some tampering was going on.

That is one of the reasons that the suns will not mention a word of pending trades until they happen.

 

[elindholm]

So why didn't the Suns then turn around and send Cassell, Horry, and Brown to the Nuggets for Mutombo?

 

[capologist]

Originally posted by Ouchie-Z-Clown
we lost david robinson on a coin flip also.

That was actually a lottery, rather than a coin flip, but I guess the principle is the same.

The grand prizes in the first three lotteries were Patrick Ewing, Brad Daugherty, and the Admiral. We participated in all three, but didn’t win any of them. We ended up with Ed Pinckney, William Bedford, and Armon Gilliam. Ouch.

we got the hammer instead. woo-friggin'-hoo.

In all honesty, that was just a bad pick. There were at least five future All-Stars on the board when we selected Gilliam.