What is Levi's open market value?
- Thread starter Cbus cardsfan
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Chopper0080
2021 - Prove It
And despite that he is still an upgrade over Jeremy Bridges, and Levi Brown being owed $17 million.
I agree that there is not a perfect solution available, but I believe having watched the Jets and the Cardinals, that Ferguson is an upgrade over Levi Brown. If he became available, the Cardinals would be smart to work out a deal with him until they can develop a better option. While I like the potential of Demetrius Bell, he struggles to stay healthy. Ideally the Cardinals would restructure Levi Brown's contract to 5 million/year, move him to RT, sign Demetrius Bell to a similar deal w/ less guaraunteed money due to his injury issues, play him at LT, draft DeCastro in the 1st, and draft two developmental OTs in the mid to later rounds. It won't happen, but would be a solid plan.
SissyBoyFloyd
Pawnee, Skidi Clan
I don't care what anybody says, Levi is a big part of our team. He has had some very good games recently. He does get beat often when we play those teams with a stud outside rusher, but show me more than a couple of LTs who don't. It is easy to remember those games when he is matched up with those couple of guys who are nearly unblockable. The coaches need to prepare better for those games and give extra help where needed. When you play against Ware or Allen, your QB should know it is going to be a long afternoon and your coach better keep your best blocking back in there on every pass play. Remember Levi played against the top 2 sack artists in the league last year in both Allen and Ware.
Next year we will have the pleasure of stopping Jared Allen again, plus Julius Peppers, Trent Cole, Osi Umenyiora, and Clay Matthews, 5 out of the top 10 sack artists. Some games you just have to accept the fact that your QB, LT, and RT are going to have an extra hard day at work.
If it were my choice, I would sign Levi after restructuring a contract for less money, and insist he take Tai Chi courses to improve his balance. I feel Tai Chi would work wonders for him finding and keeping his center of balance.
Next year we will have the pleasure of stopping Jared Allen again, plus Julius Peppers, Trent Cole, Osi Umenyiora, and Clay Matthews, 5 out of the top 10 sack artists. Some games you just have to accept the fact that your QB, LT, and RT are going to have an extra hard day at work.
If it were my choice, I would sign Levi after restructuring a contract for less money, and insist he take Tai Chi courses to improve his balance. I feel Tai Chi would work wonders for him finding and keeping his center of balance.
AntSports Steve
Cardinals Future GM
I think the Cards should play hardball with Levi.
Step 1 : When practice starts, tell him to stay home until the Cards rework your contract. An injury during football workouts puts the Cards on the hook for his entire 2012 contract.
Step 2 : Delay... Do not even start working on his contract until the Cards have tried to land his free agent replacement, which is hopefully and improvement in both play and salary.
Step 3 : A month or two into free agency (heck, wait until after the Draft) when most of the money has been spent then decide what to do about Levi. If they got his replacement, great, cut him. If the Cards need Levi, then rework his deal, but since most of the other teams have used their salary cap, the amount he will be able to command will be reduced and he will have to accept a lower amount from the Cards than he hoped. Maybe you could offer him more if he will move back to RT (so his feelings won't be hurt as much. He could think, hey, I got more by moving back to RT???).
My feelings are : That is not a very cool way to handle his contract, but, his agent wanted him to potential be a free agent sooner by having an inflated salary for 2012. If his salary were normal, he probably plays out his contract this year and we worry about it next year. I am guessing his agent wanted this "balloon" salary year, so it is only fair that the Cards play hardball also.
In theory, you could keep him on the team as a non-practicing player until training camp starts. If the Cards need him, he will need to practice. The funny thing is this could backfire. If the Cards really need him, but have been trying to get his price down, he could hold out during training camp to try an push his salary back up.
Should be interesting...
Step 1 : When practice starts, tell him to stay home until the Cards rework your contract. An injury during football workouts puts the Cards on the hook for his entire 2012 contract.
Step 2 : Delay... Do not even start working on his contract until the Cards have tried to land his free agent replacement, which is hopefully and improvement in both play and salary.
Step 3 : A month or two into free agency (heck, wait until after the Draft) when most of the money has been spent then decide what to do about Levi. If they got his replacement, great, cut him. If the Cards need Levi, then rework his deal, but since most of the other teams have used their salary cap, the amount he will be able to command will be reduced and he will have to accept a lower amount from the Cards than he hoped. Maybe you could offer him more if he will move back to RT (so his feelings won't be hurt as much. He could think, hey, I got more by moving back to RT???).
My feelings are : That is not a very cool way to handle his contract, but, his agent wanted him to potential be a free agent sooner by having an inflated salary for 2012. If his salary were normal, he probably plays out his contract this year and we worry about it next year. I am guessing his agent wanted this "balloon" salary year, so it is only fair that the Cards play hardball also.
In theory, you could keep him on the team as a non-practicing player until training camp starts. If the Cards need him, he will need to practice. The funny thing is this could backfire. If the Cards really need him, but have been trying to get his price down, he could hold out during training camp to try an push his salary back up.
Should be interesting...
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Well, the point of these mind games is lost on me, and probably the Cards FO.
THESMEL
Smushdown! Take it like a fan!
I think Levi is a 5 star, SB caliber LT = almost 10 mill a year
Keith is a 2 star
http://profootball.scout.com/a.z?s=127&p=9&c=12&yr=2012&nid=83&lnid=83&rc=16&pid=3
Keith is a 2 star
http://profootball.scout.com/a.z?s=127&p=9&c=12&yr=2012&nid=83&lnid=83&rc=16&pid=3
BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA have you watched football before?
http://www.profootballfocus.com/blo...ot-offensive-tackle-pass-blocking-efficiency/
see if you can find Levi on the list...
AntSports Steve
Cardinals Future GM
by Crazy Canuck
The point is, you don't cut him until you have a replacement. If you end up needing him, you wait until there is no money left anywhere else for him and get him as cheap as you can.
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... and in the meantime you have $18M caught up in Levi that you can't spend...
THESMEL
Smushdown! Take it like a fan!
Ba Ha HA
I explained why a cards oline can't be measured traditionally ad nauseum. Watch what he gets if we cut him Ba Ha Ba HA
http://www.spotrac.com/top-salaries/nfl/tackle/
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I explained why a cards oline can't be measured traditionally ad nauseum. Watch what he gets if we cut him Ba Ha Ba HA
http://www.spotrac.com/top-salaries/nfl/tackle/
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Jake LongatTackle$11,200,0002
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Trent WilliamsatTackle$11,000,0003
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Marcus McNeillatTackle$10,500,0004
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Jason SmithatTackle$10,000,0005
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D'Brickashaw FergusonatTackle$9,985,0006
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Jordan GrossatTackle$8,500,0007
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Levi BrownatTackle$8,300,0008
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Jason PetersatTackle$7,900,000
Treefiddy
Richard Cranium
Isn't there a date in which we are on the hook for his money by not cutting him? Isn't that the day the new season starts which is also the start of Free Agency?
Chopper0080
2021 - Prove It
This just basically tells me that non playoff teams generally overspend on mediocre talent at LT. Long is solid. Trent Williams got suspended. McNeill sat out because of back and might retire. Jason Smith has been terrible. Ferguson is decent at best. Jordan Gross is pretty good. Levi Brown is inconsistent. Jason Peters is pretty good.
So, I guess we shouldn't spend top money or a top pick on a LT because it wil just be over paying for average talent. I don't see New England, Pitt, Houston, NY Giants, Cowboys, Saints, Falcons or Packers on this list and those are the types of teams that I want to be associated with. Cut Levi, spend 6 mil on a top OG and 5 mil on a prospective OT( D Bell or Collins), trade back in the first round, and take OT's with a mid round picks.
kerouac9
Klowned by Keim
That doesn't tell you that. What Smel's chart shows is how dumb the players were to allow a rookie salary scale. Four of the top 5 OT salaries are Top 10 rookie deals.
If you actually think the above bolded is true, then you definitely don't know what you're talking about when it comes to offensive line play in the NFL and your opinion shouldn't be considered by anyone when it comes to re-making the offensive line for the Arizona Cardinals. You just saying that makes me reconsider whether DeCastro should be a first-round pick at all.
Jake Long is the best offensive tackle in the NFL right now. Him and Joe Thomas are the ONLY proven, elite offensive tackles in the NFL today. In 4 NFL seasons, Long has missed only 2 games, committed 22 penalities, and given up just 19 sacks while protecting the blind side of quarterbacks who could charitably be described as mediocre and a receiving corps that could generously be described as lackluster.
I know that it's the Year of the Quarterback and everything, but more attention should be paid to how and why the talent base at the OT position is so very poor these days. The second-most important position in an NFL offense, and no one notices that there are fewer elite players at that position than any other in the League, including quarterback.
Chopper0080
2021 - Prove It
Correct, so my point is why would you pay a player who has proven to produce average OT play 8 million/year when you can pay a similar player (production wise) 5-6 million per year, and then try to develop a LT witho a younger player through the draft. My point is not to state that LT is not important, it is to state that LT play in the NFL is so down it is stupid to invest 7 million on average play. The difference between Jeff Backus, Levi Brown, and MAx Starks is why I bring this up.
As far as the bolded "Long is solid" is my way of saying that he is a rock. I guess I can see how is could be misconstrued. I agree that Jake Long and Joe Thomas are the best LTs in the league. I believe in Jake Long's talent so much I want to draft his less talented brother Joe Long in the 6th or 7th round because I can't see the apple falling that far from the tree.
If that's the case then maybe Left Tackle isn't that important anymore?
The Cards most prolific and successful offenses had Mike Gandy and Jeremy Bridges at LT. The Saints scored 547 points with Jerome Bushrod. Green Bay scored even more with Marshall Newhouse starting 13 games at LT. The Chargers were 6th in points per game with Brandyn Dombrowski and Marcus McNeil at LT. Carolina was 5th in points last season with Jordan Gross who keeps switching from RT to LT and back.
Of course the reason that there aren't any elite LTs coming out of college is that they're worn out from pass blocking 1000 times a season for 4 years.
Chopper0080
2021 - Prove It
2012 Playoff Starting LTs
New England-Matt Light
Baltimore-Bryant McKinnie
Houston-Duane Brown
Denver-Ryan Clady
Pitts-Max Starks
Cincy-Andrew Whitworth
Green Bay-Chad Clifton
San Fran-Joe Staley
New Orleans-Jerome Bushrod
NY Giants-David Diehl
Atlanta-Will Svitek
Detroit-Jeff Backus
New England-Matt Light
Baltimore-Bryant McKinnie
Houston-Duane Brown
Denver-Ryan Clady
Pitts-Max Starks
Cincy-Andrew Whitworth
Green Bay-Chad Clifton
San Fran-Joe Staley
New Orleans-Jerome Bushrod
NY Giants-David Diehl
Atlanta-Will Svitek
Detroit-Jeff Backus
football karma
Michael snuggles the cap space
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interesting
most of those guys could be best described as "good..... enough"
Clady is probably the best of that bunch
after that............
kerouac9
Klowned by Keim
I get that, but you're also pointing to playoff teams who have elite quarterbacks. Joe Staley and Ryan Clady are IMO near-elite talents at OT (they're both former Pro Bowlers)--they're the OT equivalents of Karlos Dansby. You wonder why those teams sub-mediocre passers were able to do just enough to win division titles?
Bryant McKinnie was voted to the Pro Bowl two years ago and is a former 1st round pick. He got caught up in a restructuring of a coaching staff and lost weight throughout the season in Baltimore.
Matt Starks was bad enough to get his quarterback killed all season long. Matt Starks is one of the few players in the NFL Levi Brown is better than, IMO.
The question that you have to ask yourself is whether $6 million a year will be enough to pry Backus away from Detroit. I don't think so. Backus's last contract was 6 years, $38 million.
The other question you have to ask yourself is if you want to grow an offensive line for the next decade, or muddle around for a few years until you pay the next free agent. Russ Grimm isn't a guy who's going to develop a 6th round pick into a starting tackle. He's never been that guy. When he tries, you end up with Brandon Keith. Where Grimm has succeeded is when he's given good talent and then gets them to play up to their talent level/draft status.
I don't think that Levi Brown needs elite quarterback play to look adequate. He can be Backus-level with merely average play behind him. He's been made to look worse than his is--especially this season.
A restructuring of Brown would put him at around $6 million per year, guaranteeing those salaries the first two years along with signing/roster bonuses to recoup some of what he loses in the restructure.
When was this? In Pittsburgh?
Mike Gandy 3rd round 2001
Reggie Wells 6th round 2003
Lyle Sendlein Undrafted, Duece Lutui 2nd 2006, Levi Brown 1st 2007 and Jeremy Bridges 6th round 2003 are still on the team!
Grimm is a good old boy hire. Nothing more.
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kerouac9
Klowned by Keim
Pittsburgh. When it comes to free agent veterans, they're already established NFL players and their draft status doesn't matter as much. Grimm developed neither Mike Gandy nor Reggie Wells. Lutui played to his draft status as a second-rounder (maybe better than it, IMO), but failed to improve when Grimm came on board.
I'd even argue that Gandy was just barely mediocre when he was here--Warner's quick release dramatically reduced the number of sacks, but the Cards still were tops of the league in QB hits and knockdowns.
I remember reading in Lindy's Pro Football Previews after Lutui's rookie and second years that he was on the cusp of becoming a Pro Bowl Player.
Pittsburgh. When it comes to free agent veterans, they're already established NFL players and their draft status doesn't matter as much. Grimm developed neither Mike Gandy nor Reggie Wells. Lutui played to his draft status as a second-rounder (maybe better than it, IMO), but failed to improve when Grimm came on board.
I'd even argue that Gandy was just barely mediocre when he was here--Warner's quick release dramatically reduced the number of sacks, but the Cards still were tops of the league in QB hits and knockdowns.
I remember reading in Lindy's Pro Football Previews after Lutui's rookie and second years that he was on the cusp of becoming a Pro Bowl Player.
And that's the point. The offensive line is no better now than it was in 2007 when Grimm came on board in 2007.
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kerouac9
Klowned by Keim
I don't think that's the case. Because it's not just sacks. Levi Brown was actually pretty solid at RT before he got moved over. Sendlein has been the only player to improve. Lutui IMO is a mild upgrade over Rex Hadnot (who does nothing well except apparently make weight), and Colledge is probably worse than Reggie Wells was when he was a captain of the unit (!!).
It's remarkable that we've invested so much in the offensive line through free agency and received no improvement whatsoever. What has the investment of some $8 million in Russ Grimm over the past five or six years reaped?
I amend my previous post. I found some expired Barro's pizza coupons I would be willing to throw into the pot.
THESMEL
Smushdown! Take it like a fan!
come on duck
Jake Duck Grimm has been a good ole boy with more sB rings than any other Cardinal maybe in history? as Player and coach, I loved his HOF Speech.
So Grimm went to crap with Levi Brown, how about Grimm asking this oline to do something never done before? Daring defenses to blitz Levi every single down! We might trick em with a run but we plan to pass like our hair is on fire and let opposing defenses know it up front!
Now no other Oline including Long and Thomas are asked to read defenses like the Cardinals oline, This offense leans on the Oline more so the QB has less responsibility and worries.
You think the pre snap read determining whether Kolb drops in to a 3-5-7 step drop is difficult for Kolb! What about feach olineman actually having the same read responsibility and when they all don't read it exactly the same- jailbreak!
But when this oline all reads the same and clicks on all cylinders, Fitz and Kurt have HOF careers with playoff and SB records! We get to our first SB! Kurt Warner breaks completion game records!
You know all the things that tackles Long and Thomas and Staley may never experience. they are trying to get where Levi has already been!
Grimm may upgrade our HC and GM if the truth be told!
Jake Duck Grimm has been a good ole boy with more sB rings than any other Cardinal maybe in history? as Player and coach, I loved his HOF Speech.
So Grimm went to crap with Levi Brown, how about Grimm asking this oline to do something never done before? Daring defenses to blitz Levi every single down! We might trick em with a run but we plan to pass like our hair is on fire and let opposing defenses know it up front!
Now no other Oline including Long and Thomas are asked to read defenses like the Cardinals oline, This offense leans on the Oline more so the QB has less responsibility and worries.
You think the pre snap read determining whether Kolb drops in to a 3-5-7 step drop is difficult for Kolb! What about feach olineman actually having the same read responsibility and when they all don't read it exactly the same- jailbreak!
But when this oline all reads the same and clicks on all cylinders, Fitz and Kurt have HOF careers with playoff and SB records! We get to our first SB! Kurt Warner breaks completion game records!
You know all the things that tackles Long and Thomas and Staley may never experience. they are trying to get where Levi has already been!
Grimm may upgrade our HC and GM if the truth be told!
