What kind of team do you want to see the Suns build?

[sunsfan88]

Even since Len has been starting, the Suns have given up an awful amount of offensive rebounds.

CLE, who isn't known for its rebounding, had a field day against us on the offensive glass. Same with Minnesota.

It's all about boxing out. Especially for the front court guys.

 

[Chaz]

Seems like the Suns often box out well and then just fail to secure the ball.
Frustrating to watch

 

[Covert Rain]

Well...

You are likely associating running with not rebounding and playing defense. I believe that a team that is built appropriately can be successful even when playing at a faster tempo.

I feel that the current rules with defense (some zone allowed, can't back down your opponent, limited time in the lane for the offensive player) combined with the increased height and athleticism of the players make it harder to score in the half court set. Your offensive efficiency rises sharply when you are able to run.

Golden State leads the league in three things right now:

Pace, Defensive efficiency, and record. Playing at a high pace with good defense has translated to an .861 win percentage.

Will it translate into playoff success? Not sure, but the formula has been dominant so far this year.

Really the poll to me is do you want the team geared towards "Slow, Medium, or Fast" pace (since the poll associates pace in two of three options)

The ironic thing is that San Antonio has been in the top 10 in pace a few times and not so in others. Trying to associate a specific team to pace doesn't really work.

I have no doubt that it can rack up wins. Just like 7 seconds or less. Many teams even tried to emulate. All eventually jumped shipped because it doesn't translate into titles. The playoffs slow down and teams that play good defense and are efficient and methodical seem to do the best. I never said a team can't run once in a while. However, almost all the teams in the last 10 years have one thing in common. They can play half court slow down offense come playoff time.

In terms of defense, running the ball and pushing down the court requires you to get guys running out usually on the wing. Since you can't be in two places at once, those guys tend to cheat which means they are not around the rim. You truly have to have some exceptional other players to dominate those boards when you have guys leaking out down the court and they leave you on an island. Also, isn't Golden state like 25th of something in the league at total rebounds and the bottom half at rebounds per game? That might kill them in the playoffs with fewer shot opportunities and if things slow down.

Golden State might be that freak of a team that comes along once in a while that can do it. However, you don't model yourself after the once every 25 to 30 year model IMO. Personally it would be awesome if it was the "norm" for title teams because that brand of basket is so much fun to watch.

 

[Phrazbit]

Since the teams listed in association with Pace are the Suns, San Antonio, and Memphis...lets look at since 2010.

2010

Suns: 8th San Antonio: 14th Memphis: 15th

2011

Suns: 9th San Antonio 7th Memphis 18th

2012

Suns: 9th San Antonio 6th Memphis 29th

2013

Suns: 8th San Antonio 12th Memphis 30th

2014:

Suns 3rd San Antonio 19th Memphis 30th

Average over 5 seasons:

Suns: 7.4 San Antonio: 11.6 Memphis: 24.4

So Memphis really does slow it way down but prior to this season San Antonio and the Suns ran very similar paces.

Also worth noting that San Antonio and their slower pace this year has translated, so far, into a significantly worse team from the previous couple seasons when they were pushing 60 wins.

As to the main topic, I don't see why this is a black or white issue. I want the Suns to run the system that best fits their personnel. If the Suns could get a dominant interior man, or some legit pick and pop/catch and shoot guys then I'd want them to alter their play style accordingly.

 

[Phrazbit]

Also, isn't Golden state like 25th of something in the league at total rebounds and the bottom half at rebounds per game? That might kill them in the playoffs with fewer shot opportunities and if things slow down.

Golden State might be that freak of a team that comes along once in a while that can do it. However, you don't model yourself after the once every 25 to 30 year model IMO. Personally it would be awesome if it was the "norm" for title teams because that brand of basket is so much fun to watch.

I'd worry more about rebound differential than totals. Golden State is currently 15th in rebound differential (tied with Memphis!). Last year's finals teams were 13th and 26th respectively in rebound differential, the year before Miami and the Spurs were 19th and 20th.

They're playing really good offense and really good defense, I don't think its a stat Golden State needs to sweat.

 

[Covert Rain]

Also worth noting that San Antonio and their slower pace this year has translated, so far, into a significantly worse team from the previous couple seasons when they were pushing 60 wins.

As to the main topic, I don't see why this is a black or white issue. I want the Suns to run the system that best fits their personnel. If the Suns could get a dominant interior man, or some legit pick and pop/catch and shoot guys then I'd want them to alter their play style accordingly.

San Antonio is getting old. Last year they were the exception not the rule and they still are one of the best half court set teams in the NBA come playoff time. They have Tim Duncan one of the greatest players to ever play in the middle. Getting that kind of caliber player is the holy grail.

 

[slinslin]

Golden State basically modeled themselves after the Suns.

Their year this season is similiar to the Nash lead Suns teams which for the most part actually ranked decently defensively unless you were judging defense by nothing more than points allowed.

Golden State can win it this year, Suns were good enough that they could have won in in a few of these years but to win it all you sometimes also need to get lucky like Dallas.

I want run and gun while still playing defense. Bledsoe and Len fit that mold, Goodwin could eventually.

 

[BC867]

you sometimes also need to get lucky like Dallas.

Was it luck? Or was it was adding Tyson Chandler to the mix? He was the difference maker.

Hopefully, Len's development and health can take him to the level. But it is still going to take a solid Power Forward taking pressure off him. And vice versa.

 

[Phrazbit]

Was it luck? Or was it was adding Tyson Chandler to the mix? He was the difference maker.

Hopefully, Len's development and health can take him to the level. But it is still going to take a solid Power Forward taking pressure off him. And vice versa.

They also rotated both of their guard positions between 3 guys typically cast as point guards.

GASP!!!

 

[JCSunsfan]

They also rotated both of their guard positions between 3 guys typically cast as point guards.

GASP!!!

Jason Terry 6-2, 176
Jason Kidd, 6-4, 205
Jose Berea, 6-0, 175
Roderique Beaubois, 6-0, 170

I think Dirk helped that team a bit.

 

[Mainstreet]

So much was expected of Roderique Beaubois but injuries prevented him from being the player Dallas expected.

 

[Chaz]

From today's Coro orange slices:

Cole Mickelson's Stone Cole Fact o' the Day:*Eric Bledsoe, Goran Dragic and Isaiah Thomas could become the first NBA trio of teammates who are all 6 feet 3 or shorter to have double-digits scoring averages for a season since the Detroit Pistons' Bad Boys trio of Joe Dumars, Vinnie Johnson and Isiah Thomas.

But small ball will never win a championship!

 

[BC867]

From today's Coro orange slices:


But small ball will never win a championship!

Not when it pushes your Small Forward to Power Forward and light players to Center in the 4th quarter to accommodate your three smallest players.

Speed and energy are important at the end of the game, but not at power positions.

 

[Covert Rain]

From today's Coro orange slices:


But small ball will never win a championship!

Having multiple guards on your team who can play and playing them primarily on the court together as your primary offense is not the same thing. How many teams have one NBA titles with a 3 guard lineup (6'3" guys) as their go to strategy compared to those with a traditional lineup?

 

[Chaz]

Having multiple guards on your team who can play and playing them primarily on the court together as your primary offense is not the same thing. How many teams have one NBA titles with a 3 guard lineup (6'3" guys) as their go to strategy compared to those with a traditional lineup?

How is it the Suns primary strategy? They have closed some games with those 3 but far less than the primary lineup.
I think people are making more of the guard situation than is there.

Plus, you may have missed the lol and smiley.
Those Detroit guys were hof level players. Almost any strategy works if the players are good enough.

 

[Ronin]

Run n Gun with a mix of defense.

 

[slinslin]

Vinnie Johnson has no noteworthy accolades at all, our current Isaiah Thomas is probaby better or at least close.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/johnsvi01.html

And Dumas might not have made it into the HOF without the championships.

It's not like Thomas, Dumas and Johnson was equivalent to Westbrook, Harden and Curry.

I don't think our PG Hydra is THAT far below them in terms of talent and production and Bledsoe and Thomas are only 25 years old. Thomas was 28, Dumars 26 and Johnson 33 when the Pistons won their first championship.

That Pistons team still had Dennis Rodman 9/9, Bill Laimbeer 14/10, Mark Aguirre 16/4 and so on..

 

[Covert Rain]

How is it the Suns primary strategy? They have closed some games with those 3 but far less than the primary lineup.
I think people are making more of the guard situation than is there.

Plus, you may have missed the lol and smiley.
Those Detroit guys were hof level players. Almost any strategy works if the players are good enough.

Some people are calling for small ball run and gun. Typically that means using 3 guards, sliding the SF to PF and PF to center. The Suns are guard heavy.

I am not saying the Suns are doing that primarily now but I don't think you can truly have a run and gun team unless you are playing guys out of position. Which is what I am saying. How often has that been successful versus a traditional lineup?

To your point...I think the Suns most effective defensive lineups in terms of differential have Plumlee and Len on the floor.

 

[sunsfan88]

Some people are calling for small ball run and gun. Typically that means using 3 guards, sliding the SF to PF and PF to center. The Suns are guard heavy.

Yup we've been ending a lot of games with the IT, Bledsoe, Dragic, Tucker, Kieff lineup this season.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Yup we've been ending a lot of games with the IT, Bledsoe, Dragic, Tucker, Kieff lineup this season.

We had done very little of it until 18 games ago, at which time it became the closing lineup of choice.

Steve

 

[BC867]

We had done very little of it until 18 games ago, at which time it became the closing lineup of choice.

Steve

So, unless it changes, it is the status quo. Despite Len emerging as our starting Center during this period.

 

[AzStevenCal]

So, unless it changes, it is the status quo. Despite Len emerging as our starting Center during this period.

What can I say? Len is still in the early stages of his growth as a player and apparently there are limits on his minutes. We are 14 - 4 since we moved Len into the starting lineup and began using our trio of combo guards regularly. Sometimes we match them with Keef and Len and other times we go with Tucker and Keef. I don't see why they would be motivated to go back to a more traditional lineup given that this one has worked so well. And if you are watching other teams you'll realize it's happening around the league.

I don't think you can succeed longterm if this is your only way to outscore your opponent but that isn't the case for us. There's a possibility that this lineup and our success are merely coincidental. We've had a fairly easy stretch of games and perhaps we're only winning because of the quality of our opponent. We're about to find out if that's the case. And if that is the case I expect we'll be trading Thomas or maybe even Goran over the All Star break. I only include Goran on the off chance that the front office has concluded he'll be difficult to retain.

Steve

 

[Chaz]

I would like to see numbers on how much those three are on the floor together. My impression is it isn't as much as some people think.

 

[elindholm]

I would like to see numbers on how much those three are on the floor together. My impression is it isn't as much as some people think.

At least 77 minutes so far, and my impression is that it has been happening more as the season goes on.

http://www.82games.com/1415/1415PHO2.HTM

(See lines 5 and 12; there may be other lineups that didn't crack the top 20.)

 

[Chaz]

At least 77 minutes so far, and my impression is that it has been happening more as the season goes on.

http://www.82games.com/1415/1415PHO2.HTM

(See lines 5 and 12; there may be other lineups that didn't crack the top 20.)

I would agree it has been more frequent as they have become more comfortable playing together.
For most of the year it has been 2 of 3 at all times but all 3 has been less frequent.