What was Toronto thinking?

[Errntknght]

Maybe I'm missing something here but they give up Ed Davis and throw in Calderon for the privilege of overpaying Rudy Gay? Are they looking a couple of years ahead when they have to pay Davis big bucks because he's a solid starting PF?

Sheesh the Grizz go looking for the chance to dump Gays salary and they come back with a young PF with a bright future plus Tayshaun Prince and Austin Daye. I'd rather have Tayshaun as old as he is than Gay for the stretch drive this year. Heck Daye is doing pretty good in light duty this year... his shooting stats great.

Why this on a Suns board?
Some folks suggested that the Grizz may drop out of playoffs because they traded away their top scorer, and I thought if they were right, that would make it easier for the Lakers to get in and rob us of a deserved lottery pick. Not very concerned now...

 

[devilalum]

They're still looking to dump Randolph.

 

[Errntknght]

I don't think they're trying to shed Randolph this year, though I don't follow the Grizz enough to really know. Well, getting Davis should make it quite feasible, though I think for this year they're better off keeping Zack and seeing if they can't do something in the playoffs. They are somewhat undermanned at PG but that's not the end of the world in the playoffs.

I just heard Marc Stein discussing the trade and he agrees with with me about it... maybe that's an indication I'm all wet.

 

[Phrazbit]

Toronto is desperate to make the playoffs this year. Colangelo's seat is probably getting warm. Should they miss the playoffs OKC will get their pick, if they make the playoffs Toronto keeps it (it has some really unique protections on it).

Not saying its a good trade, but Toronto had their reasons. But most moves made in desperation work out horribly.

 

[Mainstreet]

I think what Toronto was thinking, they needed to add what they perceive as a star player.

 

[Errntknght]

Toronto with visions of the playoff, surely you jest. I mean they are further from the eighth slot than the Lakers by 1 game... oh my, only one game.

What was Toronto thinking when they put the 'protection' on that draft pick... thats worse than no protection at all.

 

[Phrazbit]

Toronto with visions of the playoff, surely you jest. I mean they are further from the eighth slot than the Lakers by 1 game... oh my, only one game.

What was Toronto thinking when they put the 'protection' on that draft pick... thats worse than no protection at all.

I agree, the pick they gave up was laughable. As for the playoffs, they're a long shot but they have a better chance by virtue of being in the East, especially with the Celtics likely free-fall down the standings.

 

[PhxGametime]

I'd be interested in what players members of this board here are interested in?? It seems every rumor or every player mentioned as possibility gets shot down... I have the worst of memories and I know a lot of members want to preserve capspace, but other than sunsfan88?? wanting Eric Gordon and mention of slinslin liking Eric Bledsoe, and 90% of mb after James Harden... I don't really remember.

I really got upset Suns didn't offer O.J. Mayo the 8-9 million a year in offseason, because to add Dragic, Scola, Beasley, etc. and not go for position (SG) needed to upgrade most was a bit disturbing.

I think half the board wanted Mayo but if not Rudy Gay, Josh Smith, etc. who (if anybody) would draw interest??

PF: Aldridge, Smith, Horford, Millsap, Ibaka, Ilyasova, Gibson, T Robinson, J Hill (injured), Splitter, etc.
SF: Batum, Gay, Iguodala, Turner, Kidd-Gilchrist, T Jones, Singleton, etc.
SG: Mayo, Evans, DeRozan, Afflalo, Ross, Beal, Stuckey, Hayward, etc.

Some of the players I wouldn't mind in the right deal. I'd consider 2 PG's or 1 PG/1 Combo but this message is making my eyes bug out lol

 

[cly2tw]

Now, Gay is overpaid for sure.But Landry Field's is even worse.

 

[Magnus]

I think Toronto improved their team in this deal. After all, Gay was the leading scorer for the Grizzlies, and can be considered a star player. He's no superstar though, but they have a nice, athletic core going.

 

[sunsfan88]

Since when is Ed Davis such a hot commodity?

Rudy Gay is a top 5 SF in this league and a proven, clutch go to scorer. He's overpaid a little bit but that's what it takes for small market teams to get stars like that.

 

[Errntknght]

Since when is Ed Davis such a hot commodity?

Rudy Gay is a top 5 SF in this league and a proven, clutch go to scorer. He's overpaid a little bit but that's what it takes for small market teams to get stars like that.

Davis is not a hot commodity of course, but he's a legit PF on a rookie contract who shoots 55%, gets 6.7 reb in 23.7 mpg, a block a game and doesn't turn the ball over much. Would that we had such a player.

If Toronto had traded Fields instead of Davis for Gay I wouldn't have mentioned it.

Still the way they ran over the Clippers(minus Paul) last night I have some egg on my face... it will get worse if they do make the playoffs. I wouldn't put Gay in the top 5 SFs though I did some further checking and he's better than I had thought. Still 17M per annum seems way too much but if he's what it takes to ignite Toronto, I'll have to concede they made a good move. If the Grizz collapse without him, I'll have to eat serious crow.

 

[Superbone]

They're thinking "Wow, what a trade! We just killed the Clippers and Rudy Gay scored 20."

 

[HoodieBets]

I honestly think Rudy Gay is the difference between a bottom 3 team to a 6th seed team if he was on this suns team. We arent going to get better in the draft I have no faith in that.

 

[Phrazbit]

I honestly think Rudy Gay is the difference between a bottom 3 team to a 6th seed team if he was on this suns team. We arent going to get better in the draft I have no faith in that.

We are not getting anywhere near a playoff spot this year, no matter who we could potentially get. Rudy Gay not only cripples us in draft position but also obliterates our salary cap. If the ultimate goal is to contend for a fringe playoff spot then Rudy Gay is a guy who can help get you there, but he also ensures that you have no hope of getting further.

He might be better than whoever we draft, he might not, but is he better than both high lotto picks AND 17 million in cap space? Almost certainly not. You can find a lot better use of 17 million, especially with the new CBA, than to dump it on a non-star like Rudy Gay.

 

[AzStevenCal]

We are not getting anywhere near a playoff spot this year, no matter who we could potentially get. Rudy Gay not only cripples us in draft position but also obliterates our salary cap. If the ultimate goal is to contend for a fringe playoff spot then Rudy Gay is a guy who can help get you there, but he also ensures that you have no hope of getting further.

He might be better than whoever we draft, he might not, but is he better than both high lotto picks AND 17 million in cap space? Almost certainly not. You can find a lot better use of 17 million, especially with the new CBA, than to dump it on a non-star like Rudy Gay.

Other than a small handful of players (3?,4?), this is true of every player in the league. Harden for example, great player but not great enough to lift you to the top if you have to give away assets AND pay max dollars. But, the question is, what do you do while you're waiting for that Tim Duncan, Michael Jordan, Lebron James kind of player to come along.

History shows that simply being horrible each year is no way to rebuild. At some point, you might as well be as good as you can be and take it from there. I'd love to have Rudy Gay on this team. Add him at the start of the season and we probably make the playoffs. I wouldn't want to lose key players in the process but if I could choose between Gay and the LA + Minnesota picks, I'd choose Rudy.

Steve

 

[Phrazbit]

I'm not talking about tanking every year. I have no problem with the team being good. But I want the team to be aiming for something sustainable. Not moves that make them competitive for one year but screw them for the next several.

And its not about waiting for a lucky draft pick, its also keeping your team in a position to make improvements through free agency, the draft and through trades. Getting Rudy Gay and his gargantuan contract severely impedes a teams ability to improve in all of the stated areas. And he is not a player that remotely guarantees even a low playoff seed.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I'm not talking about tanking every year. I have no problem with the team being good. But I want the team to be aiming for something sustainable. Not moves that make them competitive for one year but screw them for the next several.

And its not about waiting for a lucky draft pick, its also keeping your team in a position to make improvements through free agency, the draft and through trades. Getting Rudy Gay and his gargantuan contract severely impedes a teams ability to improve in all of the stated areas. And he is not a player that remotely guarantees even a low playoff seed.

I think Rudy Gay is a top 15 player when you consider current value and expected future value (not hoped for but reasonably expected). If you accept that as a given, what's your position then? Also, assuming you contest the top 15 status, where do you put him?

Steve

 

[Errntknght]

Steve:

I wouldn't want to lose key players in the process but if I could choose between Gay and the LA + Minnesota picks, I'd choose Rudy.

I dunno Steve, the most exciting thing this year is watching that LA pick flitting about...

 

[Phrazbit]

I think Rudy Gay is a top 15 player when you consider current value and expected future value (not hoped for but reasonably expected). If you accept that as a given, what's your position then? Also, assuming you contest the top 15 status, where do you put him?

Steve

Top 15 in the entire league or at his position? He is a top 15 SF, yes, but I wouldnt put him anywhere near the top 15 among all players in basketball, future value or otherwise.

 

[Phrazbit]

How much better is Rudy Gay than players like Gallinari, Chandler Parsons, Evan Turner, Paul George, Thadius Young... is he even better than all those guys?

I think he belongs somewhere within that group of players. Other than the hard to quantify ability of "clutch" he does nothing to separate himself from that pack and is in several areas of lower quality than a lot of those guys. And he makes far more money than any of them do.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Top 15 in the entire league or at his position? He is a top 15 SF, yes, but I wouldnt put him anywhere near the top 15 among all players in basketball, future value or otherwise.

I think this is always one of the things that needs to be agreed upon before we get too far with the other aspects of this kind of conversation. I think he's roughly top 15 in the league going forward although some of that is based on my belief his shooting efficiency will improve soon. He really destroyed that shoulder and has struggled somewhat since his return but just prior to the injury he was playing at an all NBA level IMO. He was right there on the step below Lebron and Durant and I expect him to return to form. That Rudy Gay is worth max dollars.

Steve

 

[Errntknght]

Top 15! He must be incredibly clutch and a defensive stopper because the typical stats don't back that up at all. #25 among SFs in PER rating and +.6 in own-opp +/-... thats maybe good for #15 among SFs. Bear in mind #15 at any position means an average starter so that wouldn't push us into the playoffs. (I didn't see the last 2 prior posts before I wrote this.)

 

[AzStevenCal]

Top 15! He must be incredibly clutch and a defensive stopper because the typical stats don't back that up at all. #25 among SFs in PER rating and +.6 in own-opp +/-... thats maybe good for #15 among SFs. Bear in mind #15 at any position means an average starter so that wouldn't push us into the playoffs. (I didn't see the last 2 prior posts before I wrote this.)

He entered the league as a very underdeveloped talent and began a steady rise and for a very short time, he reached top 15 status (IMO). Since shoulder surgery he has struggled to regain his form but even still I wouldn't put him lower than top 50 right now. I see no reason why he can't get back to his 2011 form and perhaps even improve, he's not that old. The guy can get his shot off against anyone in the league and he has every shot in the book. When he was playing at his best, he was THE star for that team and they were looking like a true championship contender until he went down.

Steve

 

[Phrazbit]

I think this is always one of the things that needs to be agreed upon before we get too far with the other aspects of this kind of conversation. I think he's roughly top 15 in the league going forward although some of that is based on my belief his shooting efficiency will improve soon. He really destroyed that shoulder and has struggled somewhat since his return but just prior to the injury he was playing at an all NBA level IMO. He was right there on the step below Lebron and Durant and I expect him to return to form. That Rudy Gay is worth max dollars.

Steve

Personally, i dont think he ever was at that level. He is/was a good scoring forward but not ever near a top 15 player. I'd put him a notch above the inefficient scorers like Monta Ellis but he is not anywhere near the class of player that LeBron or Durant are. Gay, even at his best, always made me think of less well rounded version of Danny Granger.

I think it would be very hard to construct a consistently good team with a player like Rudy Gay on a max contract, especially if even more assets were surrendered just to get him on that overpaid contract. At his level of play he needs to be paid more inline with Gallinari's contract... which is a good 7 million less per year than his current rate.

When future value is considered I am not sure exactly where I'd put Gay among the league rankings but I think he would easily fall outside of my top 50.