What would you give for Kevin Love

[Catlover]

About that Minny pick, if they (Minny) keep Love, they might lose it, if trade they him for it, they not only keep it, but it becomes a much better pick. For rebuilding purposes, it is a smart move.

Of course the Morris twins could be part of a rebuilding plan. In fact, they are still a quality part of our rebuilding plan, its just that they are expendable for the purpose of getting a star player.

The Suns really have no business making any moves right now except for a star player. The team is balanced, young, and has great chemistry. Its where Memphis was several years ago. Its just so hard to make the next move. It is at this point that teams start tweaking and twisting, making sideways moves that end up sending the team backwards (see Diamondbacks). Keep your young talent and let them develop together. Wait patiently for an opportunity to nab a star talent but don't settle for lesser deals.

I agree our goal should be a star player but that doesn't mean we couldn't improve this team incrementally. For example, say Detroit wanted out of their Josh Smith experiment and offered him to us for Channing Frye and a pick. Smith is like Rudy Gay, incredible talent that isn't as good as he should be but he'd still be a nice improvement over Frye. Adding someone like Kaman or Jordan Hill would be nice too.

The Diamondbacks did something much different though. What they did would be the equivalent of sending Goodwin and Len along with the 14th and 17th picks to Golden State for Jermaine ONeal and then send Markieff Morris and the Lakers pick to LA for Steve Nash. Then, we would leak out a story that Eric and Goran were locker room cancers and do a sign and trade for Charlie Villanueva followed by a Dragic for Tyreke Evans deal.

 

[elindholm]

I agree our goal should be a star player but that doesn't mean we couldn't improve this team incrementally. For example, say Detroit wanted out of their Josh Smith experiment and offered him to us for Channing Frye and a pick.

That's a terrible deal for Phoenix. Smith has large negative trade value. Detroit would have to include sweeteners to get any team to take Smith off of their hands.

Adding someone like Kaman or Jordan Hill would be nice too.

Kaman is on his last legs and was lucky to play as many games as he did this year. Hill would be fine.

The Diamondbacks did something much different though.

But baseball is different -- "incremental improvements" are much more feasible than they are in basketball. A basketball team has eight or nine players in their rotation, but they don't all have anywhere near the same impact on the floor; it's really only the top few that matter. If your top three are championship caliber, then upgrading the bench can move the needle those last few critical degrees. If your top three are 50-and-fade level, upgrading the rest of the rotation isn't going to be enough to break through.

 

[Catlover]

That's a terrible deal for Phoenix. Smith has large negative trade value. Detroit would have to include sweeteners to get any team to take Smith off of their hands.

I knew his contract was bad but I didn't realize it had three more years left so yes, the pick should come to us instead of the other way. Still, just from an on court perspective, he should improve us a notch or two either as the starting power forward or the backup three. We could also start him at center just to give someone an aneurism here.

Kaman is on his last legs and was lucky to play as many games as he did this year. Hill would be fine.

Kaman is only 31 and he still moves fine from what I've seen. I see no reason he couldn't give you the spot start here and there along with typical bench minutes. His defense won't win you many games but he can score down low even when it gets physical. I'd prefer Hill but Kaman is the better offensive player and would probably be easier to acquire. I know he's had some injuries along the way but he's only logged 18,000 minutes which is far fewer than Jermaine ONeal or Josh Smith for example. In fact, he's only logged about 4,000 more minutes than Channing Frye who has never been a minutes eater.

But baseball is different -- "incremental improvements" are much more feasible than they are in basketball. A basketball team has eight or nine players in their rotation, but they don't all have anywhere near the same impact on the floor; it's really only the top few that matter. If your top three are championship caliber, then upgrading the bench can move the needle those last few critical degrees. If your top three are 50-and-fade level, upgrading the rest of the rotation isn't going to be enough to break through.

I disagree with most of this. I think you try to improve your team. Sometimes the best way to do that is to keep the roster intact and sometimes you do it by switching out a piece or two. But I don't think you look at a player and then walk away if you're not sure he'll make you a champion. You have to take risks whether you stand still or tweak the roster.

 

[elindholm]

I know he's had some injuries along the way but he's only logged 18,000 minutes which is far fewer than Jermaine ONeal or Josh Smith for example.

Right, I didn't mean that Kaman was old, but that his body is breaking down. He's missed at least 25 games in five out of the last seven seasons.

But I don't think you look at a player and then walk away if you're not sure he'll make you a champion. You have to take risks whether you stand still or tweak the roster.

I'm not in the "championship or bust" camp, but on the other hand, I don't see the point in improving a 48-win roster to a 51-win one. Who really cares? They'll be equally fun to watch and will have about the same degree of success in the postseason.

Unless you're talking about a change with the heart of the roster, tweaking is just what it sounds like -- idle fiddling destined to achieve no more than a small effect. As an example, look at what happened to the Thunder after they let Harden go in exchange for other (to them) third-wheel pieces: Not much. They are Durant, Westbrook, and above-average role players, and that adds up to around 60 regular-season wins per year, tweaked or not. That's the other direction from what you're talking about with the Suns, but the principle is the same. You are defined by your two or three best players, and the rest are interchangeable so long as they meet an appropriate threshold of competence and compatibility.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Right, I didn't mean that Kaman was old, but that his body is breaking down. He's missed at least 25 games in five out of the last seven seasons.



I'm not in the "championship or bust" camp, but on the other hand, I don't see the point in improving a 48-win roster to a 51-win one. Who really cares? They'll be equally fun to watch and will have about the same degree of success in the postseason.

Unless you're talking about a change with the heart of the roster, tweaking is just what it sounds like -- idle fiddling destined to achieve no more than a small effect. As an example, look at what happened to the Thunder after they let Harden go in exchange for other (to them) third-wheel pieces: Not much. They are Durant, Westbrook, and above-average role players, and that adds up to around 60 regular-season wins per year, tweaked or not. That's the other direction from what you're talking about with the Suns, but the principle is the same. You are defined by your two or three best players, and the rest are interchangeable so long as they meet an appropriate threshold of competence and compatibility.

I think this year will be the true test of the theory that "not much" changed for the Thunder after losing Harden. With the big 3, they made it to the Finals, overcoming an even better Spurs team then they'll have to face this year. Last year was a wash with Westbrook's injury, but I think we'll see if they have enough playmakers to get by a SA now that Harden is gone.

 

[Catlover]

I'm not in the "championship or bust" camp, but on the other hand, I don't see the point in improving a 48-win roster to a 51-win one. Who really cares? They'll be equally fun to watch and will have about the same degree of success in the postseason.

Unless you're talking about a change with the heart of the roster, tweaking is just what it sounds like -- idle fiddling destined to achieve no more than a small effect. As an example, look at what happened to the Thunder after they let Harden go in exchange for other (to them) third-wheel pieces: Not much. They are Durant, Westbrook, and above-average role players, and that adds up to around 60 regular-season wins per year, tweaked or not. That's the other direction from what you're talking about with the Suns, but the principle is the same. You are defined by your two or three best players, and the rest are interchangeable so long as they meet an appropriate threshold of competence and compatibility.

I don't think anyone says "hey, let's improve our team by 3 wins". You take steps to try and improve and you really don't know how it will play out. And it's not "idle fiddling". You add Gerald Green to your roster and maybe nothing happens. Or maybe he's the reason you win it all. You just don't know until you do it.

None of this really matters in this conversation though because of your last comment. We have players that do not meet the appropriate threshold of competence. I really don't think there is a team in the league with as weak of a front court as we have. Tucker is a great role player but he shouldn't be an everyday starter. Plumlee would be a nice backup. I don't know what Frye is but he either has to play a whole season the way he played the first few months or he has to be replaced in the starting lineup.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

I agree our goal should be a star player but that doesn't mean we couldn't improve this team incrementally. For example, say Detroit wanted out of their Josh Smith experiment and offered him to us for Channing Frye and a pick.

Wow...can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not here. Do you realize how bad Josh Smith is at this point? Here's a taste...

"Josh Smith: Helped get a first-year coach and a once-great GM fired (it’s coming); drained Detroit’s salary cap; is completely and totally untradable; probably launched somewhere between 700 and 750 truly reprehensible shots; enraged the advanced metrics nerds; nearly broke the SportVU cameras and Goldsberry’s shot charts; sucked the life out of Detroit’s fan base; was disowned by the no. 1 Defender of All Lefties (Jalen Rose); couldn’t have been less fun to watch. Did I miss anything? Oh, wait — his old team (the Hawks) played better without him. And he achieved the advanced metrics triple crown, with his PER dropping from 17.7 to 14.1, his win shares per 48 minutes dropping from .075 to .021, and his sulks per 48 minutes skyrocketing from 8.2 to 14.8. If the LVP trophy changed sizes depending on the season, then Josh Smith’s 2014 season is a 40-pounder. He did everything short of getting arrested. The good news — we still have five days to go."

The lesson as always - you don't compete for championships by overpaying average talent - Josh Smith and Rudy Gay are everything you don't want on a team - me first guys that chuck way too many shots and never do the little things to win.

 

[Catlover]

Wow...can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not here. Do you realize how bad Josh Smith is at this point? Here's a taste...

"Josh Smith: Helped get a first-year coach and a once-great GM fired (it’s coming); drained Detroit’s salary cap; is completely and totally untradable; probably launched somewhere between 700 and 750 truly reprehensible shots; enraged the advanced metrics nerds; nearly broke the SportVU cameras and Goldsberry’s shot charts; sucked the life out of Detroit’s fan base; was disowned by the no. 1 Defender of All Lefties (Jalen Rose); couldn’t have been less fun to watch. Did I miss anything? Oh, wait — his old team (the Hawks) played better without him. And he achieved the advanced metrics triple crown, with his PER dropping from 17.7 to 14.1, his win shares per 48 minutes dropping from .075 to .021, and his sulks per 48 minutes skyrocketing from 8.2 to 14.8. If the LVP trophy changed sizes depending on the season, then Josh Smith’s 2014 season is a 40-pounder. He did everything short of getting arrested. The good news — we still have five days to go."

The lesson as always - you don't compete for championships by overpaying average talent - Josh Smith and Rudy Gay are everything you don't want on a team - me first guys that chuck way too many shots and never do the little things to win.

No, actually I don't. I don't know much about him at all other than I've watched him tear us apart a few times. I know he's very talented and typically underperforms but he was on a team that underperformed for a living and now he's on an almost equally dysfunctional team. I wouldn't be shocked to learn he's the main reason for that dysfunction in both cases. I'm not pushing to get him, I just used his name as an example and it kind of mushroomed. I really can't say much about him but if he helped get Dumars fired than he's at least earned some of that contract. If you take Wallace off of his resume it's one scary resume.

 

[HooverDam]

I don't know much about him at all

Yet you're making the case the Suns should pursue him.

Trust everyone else, you don't want Josh Smith. He's a ball stopper and a chucker, he'd kill the wonderful chemistry PHX has.

We need front court help, Josh Smith isn't the answer.

See here:

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[JCSunsfan]

I agree our goal should be a star player but that doesn't mean we couldn't improve this team incrementally. For example, say Detroit wanted out of their Josh Smith experiment and offered him to us for Channing Frye and a pick. Smith is like Rudy Gay, incredible talent that isn't as good as he should be but he'd still be a nice improvement over Frye. Adding someone like Kaman or Jordan Hill would be nice too.

The Diamondbacks did something much different though. What they did would be the equivalent of sending Goodwin and Len along with the 14th and 17th picks to Golden State for Jermaine ONeal and then send Markieff Morris and the Lakers pick to LA for Steve Nash. Then, we would leak out a story that Eric and Goran were locker room cancers and do a sign and trade for Charlie Villanueva followed by a Dragic for Tyreke Evans deal.

I used to be high on Josh Smith, but not interested now--age and a degenerated game. I would rather have Frye. And I don't like his contract.

I just don't see and incremental improvement as that much of an improvement.

 

[Catlover]

Yet you're making the case the Suns should pursue him.

Trust everyone else, you don't want Josh Smith. He's a ball stopper and a chucker, he'd kill the wonderful chemistry PHX has.

We need front court help, Josh Smith isn't the answer.

No, I'm not. Maybe you skipped a few posts? I just offered it as a possible example of how you could make incremental improvements as opposed to doing nothing if a star wasn't available. Toss away Smith and insert the name of some other stretch four that's better than Frye but something less than a star. I'm just arguing that the right move doesn't have to be a choice between do nothing or add a star. There are other options.

 

[HooverDam]

^ OK I'm glad you've recanted on Smith. I just find it odd when people say "lets bring in player X" and then we come to find out the poster isn't really familiar with player X.

Here's a great piece by Kirk Goldsberry on Josh Smith and Brandon Jennings from today:

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/t...nd-josh-smiths-brick-laden-season-in-detroit/

 

[Cheesebeef]

so, let me ask y'all this. What if by some crazy stroke of luck, God is completely asleep at the wheel on lottery day and the Suns actually DO get a top 3 pick. Would you step on the accelerator and see if we could trade that top 3 pick, plus Minnesota's pick, plus maybe one more first rounder (Pacers, Washington or Laker's next year) and filler contracts to get Love? I'd have to figure that offer would get Love. If they lose him, they have to build from scratch again and what better way to do that then get one of the top 3 picks in this draft?

That way, we'd be able to bring our entire team back next year and add Love to it...which would make us pretty freaking good, IMO. Or do you draft the budding superstar to go with the team?

Dragic
Bledsoe
Tucker
Love
Plumlee (but hopefully Len with a year under his belt)

with a bench of:

Green
The Morri
Plumlee
Goodwin

That teams probably won't be great defensively...hell, it'll probably look a hell of a lot like the 1988-1992 Suns, but they'd be pretty damn good in the West.

 

[HooverDam]

^ We know Love is a star, we don't know Wiggins, Parker, or whoever will be. Unless you're extremely high on the guy available at your spot, I'd likely go for Love. But you also have to have some kind of assurances that Love will extend.

It's all academic anyhow, the Suns have a .5% chance of moving up. The biggest jump ever was when the Bulls got Rose and they had 3x better chance than us.

Your right that team wouldn't be great defensively (unless Len makes an unforeseen leap to become a rim protector) but they'd win 50+ and be super fun. I'd take it.

 

[Cheesebeef]

^ We know Love is a star, we don't know Wiggins, Parker, or whoever will be. Unless you're extremely high on the guy available at your spot, I'd likely go for Love. But you also have to have some kind of assurances that Love will extend.

oh yeah...I wouldn't make that deal if Love didn't extend.

It's all academic anyhow, the Suns have a .5% chance of moving up. The biggest jump ever was when the Bulls got Rose and they had 3x better chance than us.

call me completely crazy...but I have this super odd feeling we're gonna win it this year. yes...I'm completely crazy, but a man can dream until he wakes up!

Your right that team wouldn't be great defensively (unless Len makes an unforeseen leap to become a rim protector) but they'd win 50+ and be super fun. I'd take it.

and they'd still have pieces to make one more big trade if they thought they eventually needed to, ala the Barkley trade with Markieff, the Lakers pick...even Bledsoe and hopefully Goodwin as really nice trade chips.

 

[HooverDam]

call me completely crazy...but I have this super odd feeling we're gonna win it this year. yes...I'm completely crazy, but a man can dream until he wakes up!

Not that I believe in conspiracy theories (but you always kinda wonder) but I'd have a better feeling about the Suns winning with super long odds if one of the top 3 picks was a kid from Phoenix, or even a ASU or UofA star.

That's what happened with Rose, and LeBron too (though the Cavs had good odds).

Anyhow the Suns still have a better chance than in the actual lottery.

 

[Phrazbit]

I think our chances of moving up are a tad higher than that.

We have a .5% chance of getting the first pick, but we also have a .6 and .7% chance of getting the 2nd and 3rd picks... so a little under a 2% chance of jumping into the top 3.

And if we did jump up there, I think if Parker, Embiid and Wiggings all declare then I think I'd want to keep the pick, let the team grow the old fashioned way. We'd get one of those dudes who not only have superstar potential but all fit one of our desperately needed holes, jumping up would also give us the Minnesota pick THIS year.

So we'd be stocked. We wouldnt have to make up our minds about pulling the trigger on a superstar trade because we'd have so much trade assets with growth potential that we could wait a season to decide if we want to cash them in.

I firmly believe we wont move up, because nothing that amazing ever happens to us, but IF we did I think our chances of luring LeBron over become much more realistic, as in they go from having a .000001% chance to about 10%.

 

[sunsfan88]

My first born son.

 

[Errntknght]

I don't have any great desire to lure Love away from the Twolves. If they're smart they'll want Len and Goodwin and I think we'd live to regret giving them up. If we got them to throw in Dieng then it would be considerably less painful, certainly in the short run - our defense would be about the same but we'd get a tremendous boost in rebounding - fueling our fast break. Love upgrades our half court offense substantially - spacing the floor when we need it as the cherry on top.

One reason I'm so lukewarm on Love is that he has no playoff history and as far as I'm concerned a guy is really not a 'star' if he has done nothing in the playoffs.

Hopefully, Dieng gives Kevin a good reason to stay in Minnesota and if he doesn't want to leave I doubt their GM pushes him out the door.

 

[KloD]

so, let me ask y'all this. What if by some crazy stroke of luck, God is completely asleep at the wheel on lottery day and the Suns actually DO get a top 3 pick. Would you step on the accelerator and see if we could trade that top 3 pick, plus Minnesota's pick, plus maybe one more first rounder (Pacers, Washington or Laker's next year) and filler contracts to get Love? I'd have to figure that offer would get Love. If they lose him, they have to build from scratch again and what better way to do that then get one of the top 3 picks in this draft?

That way, we'd be able to bring our entire team back next year and add Love to it...which would make us pretty freaking good, IMO. Or do you draft the budding superstar to go with the team?

Dragic
Bledsoe
Tucker
Love
Plumlee (but hopefully Len with a year under his belt)

with a bench of:

Green
The Morri
Plumlee
Goodwin

That teams probably won't be great defensively...hell, it'll probably look a hell of a lot like the 1988-1992 Suns, but they'd be pretty damn good in the West.

I gave this some thought and although I'm sure I stand nearly alone on this, but no I'd hold onto the draft choices. I realize the gamble we get a player of Love's caliber is slim at best, but I really like the idea of building this team out of unproven talent. Last summer I likely would have been on board, but I really enjoyed this team and how it's being built. I find it more attractive to draft someone and have them grow up with the team rather than to bring in someone proven and see how they mesh. I know it's probably not the best idea, nor the "smart" way to go, but I like to gamble and I'm a bit old school in my fandom. I like the idea of building through the draft. Having the team grow together. I realize many on this team were not drafted by the Suns, but all of hem were unproven and we saw huge growth by most of them this season. They did this together with a rookie coach. Bringing in a "blue chip" doesn't mean I'd be upset or anything close, but if I had the choice I'd keep the pick.

 

[BC867]

Bringing in a "blue chip" doesn't mean I'd be upset or anything close, but if I had the choice I'd keep the pick.

If we go through another season weak at Center AND Power Forward, we're going to duplicate this season. That would be a step backward because expectations are now higher. As they say, if you don't move ahead, you're falling behind.

It takes a "big" longer to develop. If we don't bring in an experienced big man, it will be years before we move up from this season's finish -- one of the best records to not make the playoffs.

And the Suns would be stuck, once again, in the 50-and-fade mode. Not bad enough to get good picks and not good enough to be a legitimate playoff team. As a fan, I wouldn't be satisfied with that. For yet another decade.

 

[KloD]

If we go through another season weak at Center AND Power Forward, we're going to duplicate this season. That would be a step backward because expectations are now higher. As they say, if you don't move ahead, you're falling behind.

It takes a "big" longer to develop. If we don't bring in an experienced big man, it will be years before we move up from this season's finish -- one of the best records to not make the playoffs.

And the Suns would be stuck, once again, in the 50-and-fade mode. Not bad enough to get good picks and not good enough to be a legitimate playoff team. As a fan, I wouldn't be satisfied with that. For yet another decade.

I realized all of that when I was giving this thought and I realize my choice is not popular or even the smart way to go. But, giving it's not predictable. i had huge hopes when they brought Penny in to team with Kidd. Look how that turned out. Obviously the odds of improving the Suns are best by bringing in a proven guy, obviously. But, we could also give all those assets for Love and he blows out his knee in the first month. Like I said, I'd still be thrilled if that proposed trade I responded to happened, but I'd still take the gamble and keep the pick. Maybe it's the thought of the Suns actually beating the odds and getting a top 3 pick in this draft and not keeping it, like we weren't listening to the Gods or something stupid like that. I'd want it to play out and see what the player picked brought to the team. Hey, just be thankful I'm not the GM.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I gave this some thought and although I'm sure I stand nearly alone on this, but no I'd hold onto the draft choices. I realize the gamble we get a player of Love's caliber is slim at best, but I really like the idea of building this team out of unproven talent. Last summer I likely would have been on board, but I really enjoyed this team and how it's being built. I find it more attractive to draft someone and have them grow up with the team rather than to bring in someone proven and see how they mesh. I know it's probably not the best idea, nor the "smart" way to go, but I like to gamble and I'm a bit old school in my fandom. I like the idea of building through the draft. Having the team grow together. I realize many on this team were not drafted by the Suns, but all of hem were unproven and we saw huge growth by most of them this season. They did this together with a rookie coach. Bringing in a "blue chip" doesn't mean I'd be upset or anything close, but if I had the choice I'd keep the pick.

I don't think you'd stand alone. I'd be really on the fence...mostly because I'm not enamored with Love and the fact that defensively, this team would be a sieve.

 

[splitsecond]

We aren't going to give away pieces to get him. In fact, I don't think anyone will considering there is no way in the world of non-fiction that he is re-signing with Minny. Keep building here and make it place he would like to sign so he can win and have a shot at a title.

 

[Bufalay]

call me completely crazy...but I have this super odd feeling we're gonna win it this year. yes...I'm completely crazy, but a man can dream until he wakes up!

You're crazy. Don't you know how these things work? Minnesota is going to move up to the top 3, not the Suns.