What's the problem with Warner?

[MaoTosiFanClub]

He barely played in the Pittsburgh game so I'll hold off as I don't really remember much about him. He played a bunch against GB while looking like Leinart vs. Oakland circa 2008 and made a few mistakes against SD as well. I'll wait and see what the regular season holds but there are some red flags that cannot be ignored.

 

[Cards232]

My expectations for Warner changed dramatically this summer. The last couple of years, he was the savvy veteran on a relatively modest salary looking to resurrect his career. I took the bad with the good and wrote off his high turnover games as part of the package.

After Warner went on every sports' talk radio/tv show and complained about being underpaid for the last couple of years and repeatedly said he should be paid like a top 5 QB, everything changed. He's now the highest paid player in franchise history. His average annual salary ranks in the top 10 of the league. The guy needs to play like a top 5 QB, and so far this preseason, he isn't. Far from it, actually.

The following are the preseason stats for the top 5 QB's (QB rating) from last year.

Manning 23/31 296 yards 3 TD/0 INT 136.0 rating
Brees 29/40 314 yards 4 TD/0 INT 132.7 rating
Pennington 21/34 271 yards 2 TD/0 INT 106.4 rating
Rivers 10/15 142 yards 0 TD/0 INT 97.1 rating
Warner 22/39 272 yards 0 TD//2 INT 56.8 rating

Sure, it's only preseason, but it's only preseason for the rest of these guys, too, and they don't seem to be struggling. None of them are coming off of surgery, but Brady is, and he's still posting a 106 rating thus far. In fact, Warner has the lowest preseason rating of any starting QB in the league, assuming Culpepper starts in Detroit. Maybe it's nothing. Maybe Kurt is simply struggling with the fading after effects of hip surgery and needs more game planning to really shine. But after the money and commitment this team gave Warner in the offseason, he needs to step it up. Soon.

As Mark Twain once said about the 3 great lies...... There are lies, damned lies, & statistics. Do we know much about the kind of offenses these other teams were running? Were they facing much as far as blitz's are concerned, or just the vanilla defenses most face in the pre-season? Were they throwing to the 1's? What were the coaches trying to accomplish in pre-season games? How many passes were dropped? How many reads by receivers were missed?

You've got a point, Warner signed the big contract that he will have to live up to. Nothing thus far has shown me that won't be the case. With the exception of the second game, he's looked pretty much like Kurt, the one that took us to the SB last year.

 

[Cards232]

He barely played in the Pittsburgh game so I'll hold off as I don't really remember much about him. He played a bunch against GB while looking like Leinart vs. Oakland circa 2008 and made a few mistakes against SD as well. I'll wait and see what the regular season holds but there are some red flags that cannot be ignored.

Do you really feel that Warner looked as bad vs. the Packers as Leinart did vs. the Raiders last year?

I'll reiterate, were his throws off the mark for the better part? Was he missing open receivers? Were his reads bad? Was he hanging in the pocket too long? Were his spirals not tight enough so that his receivers couldn't catch the ball? Poor arm strength? Floating the balls? Accuracy?

Maybe we'll have to agree to disagree. I just didn't see it. Seemed to me like Warner was the least of our problems. It would seem as though Whis. agrees based on his statements.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

Do you really feel that Warner looked as bad vs. the Packers as Leinart did vs. the Raiders last year?

Yes. People including myself just aren't as concerned because he's proven himself int he past. Warner's been really bad. 22/39 for 272, no TD's and two picks ain't good no matter which way you slice it. You can discount statistics until you're blue in the face but they're an integral part of how every NFL team gauges talent so calling them worthless makes you pretty lonely with that argument.

I'll reiterate, were his throws off the mark for the better part? Was he missing open receivers? Were his reads bad? Was he hanging in the pocket too long? Were his spirals not tight enough so that his receivers couldn't catch the ball? Poor arm strength? Floating the balls? Accuracy?

He definitely hung in the pocket too long to the tune of two inexcusable fumbles. Definitely floated at least one ball that was picked off. His accuracy hasn't been there all preseason as he's way below his career completion percentage mark. I don't bring a radar gun with me to game nor am I close enough to gauge spin so those are useless questions.

Maybe we'll have to agree to disagree. I just didn't see it. Seemed to me like Warner was the least of our problems. It would seem as though Whis. agrees based on his statements.

You're right. If Whis is fine with him then so am I. But saying there's nothing to be concerned about is illogical. You can always come up with exceptions but most players who suck in the preseason suck in the regular season.

I ultimately think Kurt will be fine but he's worth watching.

 

[Cards232]

Yes. People including myself just aren't as concerned because he's proven himself int he past. Warner's been really bad. 22/39 for 272, no TD's and two picks ain't good no matter which way you slice it. You can discount statistics until you're blue in the face but they're an integral part of how every NFL team gauges talent so calling them worthless makes you pretty lonely with that argument.

He definitely hung in the pocket too long to the tune of two inexcusable fumbles. Definitely floated at least one ball that was picked off. His accuracy hasn't been there all preseason as he's way below his career completion percentage mark. I don't bring a radar gun with me to game nor am I close enough to gauge spin so those are useless questions.

You're right. If Whis is fine with him then so am I. But saying there's nothing to be concerned about is illogical. You can always come up with exceptions but most players who suck in the preseason suck in the regular season.

I ultimately think Kurt will be fine but he's worth watching.

We really are going to have to agree to disagree. Two inexcusable fumbles? On the last fumble, he had what, 2+ seconds to throw the ball before he was plastered by the blitz? He was in throwing motion to boot.

Just to get a better gauge, were Leinart's fumbles inexcusable as well? Are there any fumbles that are excusable?

Listen, we're on the same team, just looking at things from a different perspective. Such is the spice of life. I appreciate your comments & demeanor. I know you hope that Whis is right & that's all that matters. Thanks for the friendly banter. Go Cards.

 

[Dayman]

As Mark Twain once said about the 3 great lies...... There are lies, damned lies, & statistics. Do we know much about the kind of offenses these other teams were running? Were they facing much as far as blitz's are concerned, or just the vanilla defenses most face in the pre-season? Were they throwing to the 1's? What were the coaches trying to accomplish in pre-season games? How many passes were dropped? How many reads by receivers were missed?

You've got a point, Warner signed the big contract that he will have to live up to. Nothing thus far has shown me that won't be the case. With the exception of the second game, he's looked pretty much like Kurt, the one that took us to the SB last year.

I agree that Warner isn't playing under ideal circumstances, but they're no different than every other player in the league. Rodgers was missing Jennings for the majority of Friday's game, and he still did just fine. My main concern is that Warner looks panicked under pressure. After rewatching the first half of the GB game, I noticed that most of his throws were fine when he had time. When he didn't, things turned ugly quick. Kurt's been in the league too long not to secure the ball while he's attempting to scramble. His first fumble was very preventable. No offensive line in the league can give a QB unlimited time. Pressure is something every QB has to deal with, and from what I've watched, Warner hasn't dealt with it very well this preseason.

I sincerely hope he returns to last year's pro bowl form, but this preseason has instilled the fear that he'll revert back to the Warner of 06. There's still plenty of time for him to turn it around, though.

Good job Dayman. Stating your opinion and backing it up with facts, we need more of you around here. Keep it up and post more.

Thanks. I appreciate the opportunity to talk Cardinal football with intelligent, generally non-biased fans. Thirty years of being the only Cardinal fan I know got pretty frustrating.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

We really are going to have to agree to disagree. Two inexcusable fumbles? On the last fumble, he had what, 2+ seconds to throw the ball before he was plastered by the blitz? He was in throwing motion to boot.

Just to get a better gauge, were Leinart's fumbles inexcusable as well? Are there any fumbles that are excusable?

Listen, we're on the same team, just looking at things from a different perspective. Such is the spice of life. I appreciate your comments & demeanor. I know you hope that Whis is right & that's all that matters. Thanks for the friendly banter. Go Cards.

Yeah man but while Mao is taking a "wait and see" approach - which at this point is beyond reasonable as he has looked NOTHING like the guy from last year - you are saying you don't see any reason to be concerned.

Really? Yes there ARE inexcusable fumbles - those are the ones where a 38 year old QB with no mobility takes longer then 4 seconds to get rid of the ball. Warner has looked less then good and I was especially concerned when Stevens-Howling got us to the 9 and Warner STILL couldn't punch it in.

Sounds like Warner doesn't take the preseason to seriously and he made a comment on how he doesn't step into his throws in the preseason so I will take a wait and see approach myself. But if he struggles in games one and two you better believe the alarms in Cardinal Nation will go off and there will be a strong push to bring in Matt after the bye.

But thats a ways away. And Kurt had a good enough year last year where he deserves the benefit of the doubt. But to say you are watching and don't think anything is wrong is easily myopic and more likely just seeing what you want to see.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

My expectations for Warner changed dramatically this summer. The last couple of years, he was the savvy veteran on a relatively modest salary looking to resurrect his career. I took the bad with the good and wrote off his high turnover games as part of the package.

After Warner went on every sports' talk radio/tv show and complained about being underpaid for the last couple of years and repeatedly said he should be paid like a top 5 QB, everything changed. He's now the highest paid player in franchise history. His average annual salary ranks in the top 10 of the league. The guy needs to play like a top 5 QB, and so far this preseason, he isn't. Far from it, actually.

The following are the preseason stats for the top 5 QB's (QB rating) from last year.

Manning 23/31 296 yards 3 TD/0 INT 136.0 rating
Brees 29/40 314 yards 4 TD/0 INT 132.7 rating
Pennington 21/34 271 yards 2 TD/0 INT 106.4 rating
Rivers 10/15 142 yards 0 TD/0 INT 97.1 rating
Warner 22/39 272 yards 0 TD//2 INT 56.8 rating

Sure, it's only preseason, but it's only preseason for the rest of these guys, too, and they don't seem to be struggling. None of them are coming off of surgery, but Brady is, and he's still posting a 106 rating thus far. In fact, Warner has the lowest preseason rating of any starting QB in the league, assuming Culpepper starts in Detroit. Maybe it's nothing. Maybe Kurt is simply struggling with the fading after effects of hip surgery and needs more game planning to really shine. But after the money and commitment this team gave Warner in the offseason, he needs to step it up. Soon.

Great Post.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

This is the comparison that scares me.

http://www.nfl.com/players/randallcunningham/profile?id=CUN664464

I hope Cunningham's 1998 and then 1999 isn't mirrored by Warner's 2008 - 2009.

 

[Cards232]

Yeah man but while Mao is taking a "wait and see" approach - which at this point is beyond reasonable as he has looked NOTHING like the guy from last year - you are saying you don't see any reason to be concerned.

Really? Yes there ARE inexcusable fumbles - those are the ones where a 38 year old QB with no mobility takes longer then 4 seconds to get rid of the ball. Warner has looked less then good and I was especially concerned when Stevens-Howling got us to the 9 and Warner STILL couldn't punch it in.

Sounds like Warner doesn't take the preseason to seriously and he made a comment on how he doesn't step into his throws in the preseason so I will take a wait and see approach myself. But if he struggles in games one and two you better believe the alarms in Cardinal Nation will go off and there will be a strong push to bring in Matt after the bye.

But thats a ways away. And Kurt had a good enough year last year where he deserves the benefit of the doubt. But to say you are watching and don't think anything is wrong is easily myopic and more likely just seeing what you want to see.

First of all, I agree w/ the wait & see approach, not the Warner looks like hell we're doomed approach. The reasons I'm not concerned AT THIS POINT, are due to the points delineated earlier.

Second, there are inexcusable fumbles, my question however was are there excusable fumbles (you're getting a little too excited here AF) & you seemed to have missed the point that on the last fumble, Warner had about 2+ seconds to unload the ball before he was plastered by an untouched blitzer & he was in throwing motion to boot. It was not 4 seconds w/ plenty of time to throw. Ever see Brady do that? Yep. Rothlisberger? Yep. Manning? Yep. Montana? Young? Yep. The point? Not sure. The sky is falling?

And lastly, perhaps you can answer the questions previously posed. Were his throws off the mark for the better part? Was he missing open receivers? Were his reads bad? Was he hanging in the pocket too long? Were his spirals not tight enough so that his receivers couldn't catch the ball? Poor arm strength? Floating the balls? Accuracy?

Do we know what plays Whis was calling? Do we know what Whis wanted Kurt to do? Where the Cards (including coaching staff) caught off guard by the non vanilla defenses thrown at them? Do we know if the receivers executed routes & reads properly? We know on many occasion they weren't catching properly. Whis seemed to be much more concerned about the play of his receivers than his qb. Wonder why that is? Could it be that the crusty ole vet was doing exactly what his coach was asking him to do? Whis doesn't seem to play favorites. If Warner was playing as poorly as some of you say, wouldn't one think he would have a comment about it as he has w/ others?

Just food for thought. Remember, the whole picture, not just the snap shots, or what we think the picture is. I trust Whis & Warner a lot more than the arm chair guys here. Seems like the wise thing to do. If Warner struggles in the first few in the regular season, then I'll start worrying. I've been around football too long to start worrying now, when I, nor anyone here, really know what the real story is. We rarely do in the pre-season.

I respect your opinion though.

 

[Cards232]

This is the comparison that scares me.

http://www.nfl.com/players/randallcunningham/profile?id=CUN664464

I hope Cunningham's 1998 and then 1999 isn't mirrored by Warner's 2008 - 2009.

Just out of curiosity, do you feel that Cunningham's football acumen, mind, & maturity were ever even close to Warner's? Cunnigham was a great athlete but will never be confused w/ being a great qb by most even though he may have had some very good years. Warner is headed to the HOF. Cunnigham will only get in w/ a general admission ticket. Why? Mostly the mind. Of course, just my opinion.

 

[Duckjake]

Just out of curiosity, do you feel that Cunningham's football acumen, mind, & maturity were ever even close to Warner's? Cunnigham was a great athlete but will never be confused w/ being a great qb by most even though he may have had some very good years. Warner is headed to the HOF. Cunnigham will only get in w/ a general admission ticket. Why? Mostly the mind. Of course, just my opinion.

There are numerous HOF QBs who had great seasons at 35,36,37 and then just cratered the next year. The problem with guys 38 is that you just don't know when they are going to hit the wall. The ancient Wariner could have yet another fantastic season. He could also go south on us at any time like Farve did with the Jets last season.

We just ride him until there's nothing left and then we bring in the young gun and keep right on going. Nice position to be in and the Cards had the millions to pay for it.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

First of all, I agree w/ the wait & see approach, not the Warner looks like hell we're doomed approach. The reasons I'm not concerned AT THIS POINT, are due to the points delineated earlier.

Second, there are inexcusable fumbles, my question however was are there excusable fumbles (you're getting a little too excited here AF) & you seemed to have missed the point that on the last fumble, Warner had about 2+ seconds to unload the ball before he was plastered by an untouched blitzer & he was in throwing motion to boot. It was not 4 seconds w/ plenty of time to throw. Ever see Brady do that? Yep. Rothlisberger? Yep. Manning? Yep. Montana? Young? Yep. The point? Not sure. The sky is falling?

And lastly, perhaps you can answer the questions previously posed. Were his throws off the mark for the better part? Was he missing open receivers? Were his reads bad? Was he hanging in the pocket too long? Were his spirals not tight enough so that his receivers couldn't catch the ball? Poor arm strength? Floating the balls? Accuracy?

Do we know what plays Whis was calling? Do we know what Whis wanted Kurt to do? Where the Cards (including coaching staff) caught off guard by the non vanilla defenses thrown at them? Do we know if the receivers executed routes & reads properly? We know on many occasion they weren't catching properly. Whis seemed to be much more concerned about the play of his receivers than his qb. Wonder why that is? Could it be that the crusty ole vet was doing exactly what his coach was asking him to do? Whis doesn't seem to play favorites. If Warner was playing as poorly as some of you say, wouldn't one think he would have a comment about it as he has w/ others?

Just food for thought. Remember, the whole picture, not just the snap shots, or what we think the picture is. I trust Whis & Warner a lot more than the arm chair guys here. Seems like the wise thing to do. If Warner struggles in the first few in the regular season, then I'll start worrying. I've been around football too long to start worrying now, when I, nor anyone here, really know what the real story is. We rarely do in the pre-season.

I respect your opinion though.

FWIW I am in the wait and see mode and will give Warner time to show whether the preseason performance is something to be concerned about.

I will say I am excited to see Matt get a chance to play. But I cheer for the team first and as of now, Kurt gives us the best chance to win it all.

 

[Gaddabout]

You guys are going to make Brenda mad. You won't like Brenda when she's mad.

 

[Cards232]

You guys are going to make Brenda mad. You won't like Brenda when she's mad.

Sorry, but what an ignorant & stupid comment! Brenda & your comment have what to do w/ this civil discussion we're having here? There are some that just love to stir the pot for no reason. There's one on every board.

 

[Gaddabout]

Sorry, but what an ignorant & stupid comment! Brenda & your comment have what to do w/ this civil discussion we're having here? There are some that just love to stir the pot for no reason. There's one on every board.

Would it help if I noted my snickers as I typed it? Or is that topic just taboo around here.

 

[conraddobler]

Would it help if I noted my snickers as I typed it? Or is that topic just taboo around here.

I'd say you could mark that down as a misinterpretation.

If it helps, I laughed.

 

[Rats]

I laughed also, so don't take it to personally...what I also laugh at is how worked up some get over the stats in preseason. Everyone knows what we have in Kurt. An aging QB that, with a great supporting cast ,can win games in the NFC WEST. If anyone believes that Kurt at this point in his career should be highstepping in the preseason then they are fooling only themselves. He signed a 2 year deal based on his last 2 seasons with the Gridbirds that pays him a lot of money. He earned that by taking this team to the Super Bowl and giving them the best chance to win every Sunday. There would have been a huge backlash had the Cards sent him packing. Those that want to make a Qb controversy out of the preseason should find no willing participants in Cardsville after last seasons mercurial exploits by our Kurt Warner lead offense.

Matt may be a keeper just like Boldin says Kurt is. He may get his opportunity as early as this season if Kurt is injured and can't go. If healthy, Kurt gets the nod on every scorecard except those that want to make the preseason more than what it is. There was not a competition this preseason for the starting Qb. It will take injury or a really crappy start, like 0-4, to get a new Qb under center. The only ones asking for Matt after the preseason are those that always wanted Matt rather than Kurt. Even a Super Bowl season couldn't get them out of there debilitated way of thought. Kurt at this point in there careers is simply the best QB on the roster. The Defense is of far more concern than the Offense anyways. We will need to avg 29 pts a game with this defense. We should count our blessings that we have 2 starting caliber Qb on the roster after what we have seen thru the years.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Sorry, but what an ignorant & stupid comment! Brenda & your comment have what to do w/ this civil discussion we're having here? There are some that just love to stir the pot for no reason. There's one on every board.

Official warning.

This type of comment is not acceptable.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Would it help if I noted my snickers as I typed it? Or is that topic just taboo around here.

I laughed too. I have cartoon-esque thoughts of Brenda morphed with Itchy & Scratchy.

 

[jefftheshark]

Would it help if I noted my snickers as I typed it? Or is that topic just taboo around here.

I just wish that you and some others on this board (who I could mention by name, but I won't...........okay, I will, it's JTS) would treat the subjects at hand with the gravity and seriousness they deserve.

This is not a forum for "having fun", "kidding around" or "making jokes", it's for discussing football, dammit, and as everyone here knows, there's no laughing in football.

So the next time you feel an overwhelming urge to "crack a joke" or make some inane comment designed only to make someone smile, well then I very strongly suggest you take a moment to remember where you are, and then take that comment and post it in a place where it's far more appropriate.

Like the P&R board.

JTS

 

[Cards232]

Official warning.

This type of comment is not acceptable.

With other comments I find on this board, your warning comes as somewhat suspicious. I heed your warning none the less. I don't find ad hominem attacks against Card players or their families very amusing but to each his own. Apparently that's acceptable here. I can understand why my comments are not. I will abide by the forum rules. Have a good one.

 

[Gaddabout]

With other comments I find on this board, your warning comes as somewhat suspicious. I heed your warning none the less. I don't find ad hominem attacks against Card players or their families very amusing but to each his own. Apparently that's acceptable here. I can understand why my comments are not. I will abide by the forum rules. Have a good one.

Hey, you were offended and I'm sorry. I actually like Brenda, having met her more than once. I was riffing on perception, not reality. This is what I was actually thinking as I typed it:

"People are actually dividing over who should be QB? That never turns out well, and I would hate if Warner had a few down moments early on and got booed at his own stadium. That would suck. I'll interject a little humor here so maybe people will lighten up."

Wasn't an attack, and the other people who've commented in this thread know me well enough to know I always have my "plucky comic relief" schtick locked and loaded. I took for granted not everyone knows me so well, so I'm very sorry.

Hope you will come back in good faith and good spirits. Blessings!