elindholm
edited for content
So you are using points per game? Come on man.
What's wrong with Nash?
- Thread starter Gaddabout
- Start date
So you are using points per game? Come on man.
You name it. The Suns are bottom feeders. Opposing Points per game. Opposing Points per 48. Opposing 3 Point FG%. We give up most offensive rebounds in the NBA. 2nd worst in steals in the NBA. 4th worst at giving up points in the paint.
Robin is going to help shore some of that up but "much higher"?! Really, I will give Robin credit. He has been playing very well. However, we are so bad in so many defensive categories it's not like we will even break the bottom half of the league. This teams problems are much deeper then who are center is.
P.S. Since when is PPG meaningless? I can show you mounds of evidence that teams that give up the most PPG or close to it have very little to no success winning NBA titles.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2005
- Posts
- 46,314
- Reaction score
- 11,958
Nash is 2nd in the league in assists. He must be the 2nd best point guard.
When you use stats like this, you pigeon hole.
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2005
- Posts
- 46,314
- Reaction score
- 11,958
Points per possession is the stat I like to look at.
When you play against the Suns, you have more possessions because the pace is so fast. PPG is skewed compared to a team like Boston that uses all 24 seconds of the shot clock each play.
I like to look at both sides of the ball. Do you? Last season I posted Nash's turnover problems all season long. He led the league last year in assists but also battled for the most turnovers all season long.
Nash is an offensive genius but a defensive pariah. I would never call Nash the best PG in the NBA. I would call him one of the most offensively talented PGs in the NBA. There is a difference.
Just like I would call the Suns the best offensive team in the NBA but but one of the worst defensive.
Last edited:
elindholm
edited for content
The problem is that if you don't look at the numbers carefully, you can come to incorrect conclusions. The Suns are better than average in opposition FG% and opposition points per shot. But yes, they are terrible at defensive rebounding (second worst in the league) and in turnover differential (tied for worst). If you want to make a quick fix, go after the defensive rebounding and turnovers, not the first-shot defense.
By the way, point in the paint is terribly misleading, because free throws don't count as "in the paint," even if the offensive player was about to make a layup. So a team can keep its points in the paint low just by fouling at the rim all the time.
Ugh, what a tired argument. The Suns aren't going to win a title regardless. Yes, the NBA prefers a grinding style in the playoffs, which makes it difficult for running teams to compete. But the Suns' shortcomings with respect to being title contenders are so deep and varied that it really makes no sense to harp specifically on opposition scoring.
By the way, last year's Lakers were right in the middle of the pack for opposition PPG. Of course, no one ever points that out, because it's too easy to regurgitate "defense wins championships" over and over like some halfwit parrot.
I pointed it out. In fact, I listed the last 15 to 20 NBA Title winners stats in a thread last year. At the very least each team (if I recall) was at the very least very competent defensive teams. Many of those teams led the NBA in other defensive statistical categories. Many of those teams were blessed with some shutdown defenders.
I realize PPG is not the be all end all. However, it's not out of whack either when you look at there have been no teams finishing top 10 or worse in giving up PPG winning NBA titles. Now factor in the other categories, I think the picture is clear that as tired as the cliche is....defense does win championships....you at the very least must be competent. The Suns are not right now.
I have hopes though. With Robin playing well and adding guys to our roster like Dudley and with those guys being young, I think they can be 2 big pieces to helping this team improve. I just think we need a lot more before it's all said and done. I have hard time believing that this team found the defensive light switch and all of the sudden is going to break into the leagues bottom half which is what I am disputing and define as "much higher".
Last edited:
Sunburn
ASFN Lifer
It's Points Per Possession that is the key defensive statistic. More points are going to be scored in a fast paced game then a slow paced game, that's a fact. There will be more possessions, therefore your opponent will score more points. Doesn't mean fast paced teams play bad defensive however. If a fast paced team allows an opponent to score 100 points but only put up on average 1 point per possession, while a slow paced team's opponent puts up only 90 but is allowed 1.3 points on average per possession, the fast paced team is the better defensive team. But I do think the Suns play terrible defense. Robin has helped.
elindholm
edited for content
But you have to be competent at everything. You also won't find any championship teams that were in the bottom of the league in three-point shooting, or in assists, or in previous playoff experience, or in salary management ... you name it. The league is too competitive. We hear "defense wins championships" because it's one of those things that the converted say to one another to show that they belong in the club, like "Jesus loves you" or "I hate merlot." But terrible defense is no more a crippling weakness than any other glaring flaw.
Of course! This team is miles away. I can almost guarantee that no one on the current roster will be around when the Suns are fortunate enough to stumble into their next contending cycle. This last one started about ten years after the Barkley/Johnson one wrapped up, and that's probably the minimum interval in most cases. (The Lakers got a shortcut when the Grizzlies gave them Gasol, but other than that, you'll be hard pressed to find exceptions.)
The difference for me is that you can have the best defensive team in the NBA with a suspect offensive and still have a shot. I don't believe the opposite is true and why I think that saying has some legitimacy.
Sad but you are probably right. I do think though that if the Suns get into the mode of adding defensive minded players now, it could set the philosophy for future teams down the road.
Chaplin
Better off silent
A team like the Suns gets its points on a lot more possessions than normal. Suns opponents also almost always get more possessions then THEIR normal, so it goes to show that any team that plays a team with a high number of possessions will have a higher PPG. In other words, it's a useless statistic for an uptempo, many-possession team like the Suns.
Like several have said, it's points per POSSESSION, not game, that is more important.
Like several have said, it's points per POSSESSION, not game, that is more important.
OP
OP
If no team was going to throw any reasonable draft pick at Phoenix for Stoudemire, you KNOW you're going to get any reasonable draft pick for Nash. What would be the point of trading him away? Trading Stoudemire for a lottery pick is the only hope if rebuilding today because the Suns don't have a first-round pick otherwise.
So you want to trade Nash away and do what? Start Dragic and wear him down, too?
Might as well keep Nash until his contract runs out. At least then you stand to see some decent basketball until the Suns can actually begin rebuilding again.
elindholm
edited for content
But the opposite is true, as the Lakers proved just last year. Their defense was nowhere near the level of many other top teams, including Orlando, Cleveland, Boston, San Antonio, and Portland. One could argue that they lucked out quite a bit by (a) drawing Denver, whose defense was just as marginal, in the WCF, and (b) getting a completely inexperienced and psychologically overwhelmed Magic team in the Finals.
Which is moot in this case or any case when a team is bad as the Suns defensively.
The Suns score 1.5 points per 100 possessions.
The Suns give up 1.4 points per 100 possessions.
So even in an uptempo style, the Suns give up as much as they make even at a faster pace. Points per possession only helps you look at Net efficiency. While we are going there...the Suns rank 10th in the NBA in overall NET but 5th worst team in defensive points per possession. I am not sure how points per possession really helps the defensive argument here?
Last edited:
The Lakers were competent in defense all season long. They also played some shut down defense in many quarters that I watched in the playoffs. Again, key word is competent. When the Suns shut someone down it's usually for a possession or two. When teams like the Lakers do, they do it for an entire quarter. The Lakers were competent and far from the top 10 worst teams defensively which to me is what I call "suspect".
elindholm
edited for content
Okay, but then we're back to my other point, which is that you won't find any champions who are bottom-ten in any significant category.
I can buy that. Just merely stating that you have a much better chance with a team on the defensive end of the spectrum then you do an offensive one. Defense will keep you in a game when shots don't fall if you are a defensive minded team. If you are offensive minded and your shots don't fall your SOL like the Suns have demonstrated in countless examples.
cly2tw
Registered User
- Joined
- Oct 26, 2002
- Posts
- 5,832
- Reaction score
- 0
Statistics win championship, not defense! 
mojorizen7
ASFN Addict
What does it matter what statistics one uses?
If you know anything about basketball(which you certainly do E) you don't need statistics to arrive at the fact that the SUNS defense is and has been piss poor. Not average, very much below average and certainly not in the ballpark of championship caliber.Are you here to dispute the obvious for the sake of..........?
I'm not sure of your age and how far back you go in terms of watching playoff basketball games on television etc.., but Larry Bird was not a poor defender. I'm not sure how Larry got dragged into a conversation about Nash anyway....both great players. Bird was hardly a one dimensional player if thats your argument.
mojorizen7
ASFN Addict
Maybe if you can manage to post an opinion and stick your neck out on something, rather than reacting to others by safely replying as to how ridiculous or ludicrous it is.....if you can do that i'll hold off on the 2011 trade deadline talk.
Fair enough?Errntknght
Registered User
I read a while back that the best predictor of a championships is average point differential. If defense has particular merit, one should find that point differential divided by 'points scored multiplied by opponents points scored ' is an even better predictor. The reason for points scored in the denominator is that dividing by points scored normalizes differential to a percentage of points scored. Statistically, you'd expect the normalized differential to be better than the raw differential but I suspect that was not tested. I guess I ought to say that if defense is of particular importance then normalized differential divided by opponents points scored should be a better predictor of championships than normalized differential.
mojorizen7
ASFN Addict
Yes titles are won by players. Players who are coached....in a system. None of those teams cultures were based on on a system designed to just go out there and simply outscore their opponent at all costs regardless of shot selection,tempo etc...
You can have your 20 footers and I'll take my layup's all night long my friend.
.I expect a higher % thru more selective shot selection in an offense....an offense that begins with a strong post up game,that utilizes the perimeter shooters based on how the defense reacts....supported by a strong team defense of course.
^This can't happen while Nash is here. We know this(Terry Porter knows this
,Steve Kerr must know this too).....hence the reason why i'd prefer to see Nash moved in favor of a different style or culture of basketball.This is a pick and pop,screen and roll jump shooting offense(and as long as Nash is here it should be).
Chaplin
Better off silent
Maybe if you can manage to post an opinion and stick your neck out on something, rather than reacting to others by safely replying as to how ridiculous or ludicrous it is.....if you can do that i'll hold off on the 2011 trade deadline talk.
You're not serious, are you? I am the most hated guy on this forum precisely because I DO stick my neck out on things!
elindholm
edited for content
I take it you haven't followed the rest of the thread.
