Which draft move was worse? 2 choices

[earthsci]

And I will continue to say it was a stupid trade because it was...a stupid trade! You're seriously not defending this travesty of a trade, are you? Sure, we would have had one lousy player instead of two, but who knows who we draft in the 4th? Even considering who we would have taken, we'd have had a shot at more.

Bottom line: Stupid, stupid trade. Care to outright disagree?

We wouldn't have had a shot at more. It would have been the same amount of picks. Who would you gamble on finding two good football players, the team with a #6 and a 4th rounder, or a team with the #17 & #18 picks?

I'm not defending this trade like it was a great move, I'm just pointing out that it wasn't the horrible, travesty that you always make it out to be...our picks were.

 

[THESMEL]

yes whis is

I don't doubt Whiz- He kept and started DA over Leinart, THT over Edge and Beanie, Faneca over Reggie Wells, and Porter over Cody Brown!
Mcfadden over Hood and on and on.

He may get it right this year? or knot?

In 2007 Edge had the 2nd most rushing attempts in the entire league. With how well AP carries the ball he would have gotten playing time. We are not talking about the mediocre players who revolve in and out of his dog house, AP is a hall of fame player. No matter what anyone thinks of Whiz I doubt he is dumb enough to not notice the talent.

 

[Phrazbit]

I don't doubt Whiz- He kept and started DA over Leinart, THT over Edge and Beanie, Faneca over Reggie Wells, and Porter over Cody Brown!
Mcfadden over Hood and on and on.

He may get it right this year? or knot?

In which of those situations was he holding back a future hall of famer?

 

[1DS]

wendel bryant and bryan johnson instead of terrel suggs.. the worst move ever

Calvin Pace and Bryant Johnson.

 

[52brandon]

I don't doubt Whiz- He kept and started DA over Leinart, THT over Edge and Beanie, Faneca over Reggie Wells, and Porter over Cody Brown!
Mcfadden over Hood and on and on.

He may get it right this year? or knot?

also took this organization further than it ever has gone before. But he benched Matty to do it... If coach woulda just put him in that game. I bet he could throw a football over those mountains

 

[Stout]

We wouldn't have had a shot at more. It would have been the same amount of picks. Who would you gamble on finding two good football players, the team with a #6 and a 4th rounder, or a team with the #17 & #18 picks?

I'm not defending this trade like it was a great move, I'm just pointing out that it wasn't the horrible, travesty that you always make it out to be...our picks were.

Our picks were bad, and the trade was just as bad. How often have you heard of a team that was trading BACK being the ones giving up several more things? You don't. Maybe a low round swap, like a 5th for a 6th, but not swapping back in the 2nd and giving up a 4th. Just plain stupid, no matter how much you say it isn't so. Ask the board. This isn't rocket science.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

In which of those situations was he holding back a future hall of famer?

+1

I understand that point that he was trying to make, but he has to show better examples cause a lot of those decisions look like the right ones to me.

But that is just me, I always want to see production over potential. It is easier to have faith in what a person has done, then what they "will" do. A bird in hand is worth two in the bush, etc., etc.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

I respect your opinion dude. You have to realize, it's not like I'm saying AP sucks, or isn't the best back in the league, I don't feel like I should have to preface every post with that, but the fact is Levi is going to outlast him and I don't think you or anyone can grade him yet. At the midway point of his career, he should just now start hitting his prime, in my opinion, and he played well last year and I'm hoping plays well this year. And even better in years to come.

I am. I can. He sucks. I am a little sad that he is even on the team. I'd rather start an undrafted rookie and take my chances. Seriously.

 

[THESMEL]

The EDGE

the edge is HOF for sure, probably first ballet, is top 10 all time in carries, yards and yards from scrimmage. Playoff games, Peyton Manning ect.. My gosh he put 2 1000 yard years together for the Cardinals, We gave like 2 other 1000 yard years in AZ, and everybody kicked Edge for not getting more- big silly's

Better examples of the worse moves in the entire NFL! did you even see DA play? I did , he should not have even been playing at all! He got rolled up and smoked in the Preseason by Leinart. I believe in encouraging and supporting my HC, but not in career suicide! I don't know how Whiz is still standing! I hope he turns it around but few survive that crap.

AP does not suck, but Beanie is more feared by defenders. Beanie is a widow maker at RB, His best is yet to come, and beanie has not been targeted- it aint that He can't catch- He has caught all catchables balls but 1 in 3 years. including from WR position. Beanie can play WR and 2ndary's can not tackle him without Mucho pain.

In which of those situations was he holding back a future hall of famer?

 

[52brandon]

AP does not suck, but Beanie is more feared by defenders

no

 

[NJCardFan]

I don't get the Rice/Ogden debate. It isn't like Rice was a bust while we had a pretty decent offensive line in those late 90's teams. And knowing this team's M.O., do you think he would have stayed around? Worse yet, like all offensive linemen we draft, they are completely misused.

 

[Phrazbit]

the edge is HOF for sure, probably first ballet, is top 10 all time in carries, yards and yards from scrimmage. Playoff games, Peyton Manning ect.. My gosh he put 2 1000 yard years together for the Cardinals, We gave like 2 other 1000 yard years in AZ, and everybody kicked Edge for not getting more- big silly's

Better examples of the worse moves in the entire NFL! did you even see DA play? I did , he should not have even been playing at all! He got rolled up and smoked in the Preseason by Leinart. I believe in encouraging and supporting my HC, but not in career suicide! I don't know how Whiz is still standing! I hope he turns it around but few survive that crap.

AP does not suck, but Beanie is more feared by defenders. Beanie is a widow maker at RB, His best is yet to come, and beanie has not been targeted- it aint that He can't catch- He has caught all catchables balls but 1 in 3 years. including from WR position. Beanie can play WR and 2ndary's can not tackle him without Mucho pain.

You've said some crazy things but this statement might take the cake.

 

[Duckjake]

I don't get the Rice/Ogden debate. It isn't like Rice was a bust while we had a pretty decent offensive line in those late 90's teams. And knowing this team's M.O., do you think he would have stayed around? Worse yet, like all offensive linemen we draft, they are completely misused.

1995 Offensive line: Ernest Dye, Duval Love, Ed Cunningham, Anthony Redmond and Larry Tharpe. Dave Krieg was sacked 53 times.

1996 Offensive line: Lomas Brown, Duval Love, Mike Devlin, Anthony Redmond and Joe Wolf.

In 1997 the Cards offensive line consisted of 34 year old Lomas Brown, Rob Selby, Mike Devlin, Anthony Redmond, and James Dexter along with Joe Wolf, Matt Joyce and Aaron Graham. Cards QBs were sacked 78 times.

1998 they bolstered the line by adding Chris Dishman and Lester "Duck Jake!" Holmes. The 1999 line was Matt Joyce, Dishman, Graham, Holmes and Anthony Clement.

'97 and '98 Plummer was sacked 100 times. 1997 the Cards averaged 3.2 ypc rushing.

Pretty decent? Ugly would be a better description. With the exception of Lomas Brown they made our current offensive line look like 5 All-Pros.

Of course the stock answer in any discussion of players the Cards should have drafted is: They wouldn't have been any good in Arizona anyway. And there is a lot of merit to that argument since the Cards would go 5-11 with 'em and 5-11 without 'em year after year.

The big thing for me with Rice vs Ogden is attitude. All reports are that Rice was a malcontent and never wanted to be in Arizona. Would Ogden have been the same and how did Rice's attitude affect the Cards who, after the '98 playoff season, went on to play some horrendous football the next 5 years winning only 25 of 80 games and finishing bottom 5 in offense and defense 4 of the 5 seasons?

 

[CardLogic]

Thanks for reminding us of those glory years, Dj!

Ugh, like a punch to the gut.

 

[THESMEL]

physically

Beanie hits people harder more often, I seen Beanie target that Packer and the packer just dropped to the fetal position rather than tackle beanie. I don't see them do that for AP. That is all I meant.

Beanie is punishing, and the only time he got 27 carries He wore out a defense with cards all time rush game. Until he gets 20-25 carries regularly you won't see the best of Beanie, Levi, Kolb or Fitz.

AP has outperformed Beanie- But tacklers fear to tackle Beanie more. IMO

You've said some crazy things but this statement might take the cake.

 

[AsUpRoDiGy]

Beanie hits people harder more often, I seen Beanie target that Packer and the packer just dropped to the fetal position rather than tackle beanie. I don't see them do that for AP. That is all I meant.

Beanie is punishing, and the only time he got 27 carries He wore out a defense with cards all time rush game. Until he gets 20-25 carries regularly you won't see the best of Beanie, Levi, Kolb or Fitz.

AP has outperformed Beanie- But tacklers fear to tackle Beanie more. IMO

I'm going to assume that's a biased opinion based on the fact that you probably watch every Cards game and get to see Beanie on a regular basis -- where as AP is in a completely different market and you probably don't get to see him snap for snap like Beanie. AP not only runs ppl over, but he can also break your ankles on the daily -- 100 out of 100 defenders would rather go up vs Beanie --that, I can assure you.

 

[gmabel830]

Beanie hits people harder more often, I seen Beanie target that Packer and the packer just dropped to the fetal position rather than tackle beanie. I don't see them do that for AP. That is all I meant.

Beanie is punishing, and the only time he got 27 carries He wore out a defense with cards all time rush game. Until he gets 20-25 carries regularly you won't see the best of Beanie, Levi, Kolb or Fitz.

AP has outperformed Beanie- But tacklers fear to tackle Beanie more. IMO

I don't even know why I bother, but that equates to at least 320 carries a year - exactly 1 running back got that many carries last year (MJD) - and that was because his team was devoid of any other offensive weapons. I want this team to have a balanced offense - having a RB in the top 3 in the league in carries doesn't translate to the type of balanced offense that currently exists in the NFL. Beanie was 9th in the NFL in carries/game average last year. With a better complimentary back (hopefully Ryan Williams this year) and more consistent QB play (we all hope), I don't see the number of attempts Beanie is getting as the issue that is holding this team back.

And if we are going to cherry pick stats, it's worth noting that in the 6 games where Beanie had at least the 20 carries you suggest he needs, half the time he failed to gain more than 67 yards.

I'm all for a more balanced offense (especially if we are behind but still in striking distance early in games), but your never ending insistence that the team should move so far over to the other end of the spectrum in terms of run vs. pass is something that I'll just never understand.

 

[THESMEL]

I appreciate that

Beanie was 9th with 240 carries, the cards were like 24th out of 31. and many of them were Kolb and skelton scrambles. But they improved over last in attempts and yards the 3 previous years and it did help our defense.

I mean 389 rushes to 550 passes with skolbton is better than 320 rushes to 561 with DA/Hall/Skelton/Bartel but not by a hell of a lot- in my book. That puts great pressure on the OLine, QB, Defense and ST. It just does, I am tired of harping but it is still less than 40% with unsettled QB's.

link
http://www.nfl.com/teams/arizonacardinals/statistics?season=2011&team=ARI&seasonType=

Good coaches on good teams don't do that, No offseason, short camp. I mean look no further than the Patriots and the Colts- They never had great running games - BUT they ran it when they qwon SB's. Same with Giants, last in rushing but tey ran it none the less.

The best case study is our cardinals 112 rushes in the 08 playoffs, THT had 143 as the starting RB in reg season in 08 and 09! I think with a lil more patient playcalling we would have more than 10 rushes in the SB loss and the Saints destruction of our franchise.

sorry can't win consistant with less than 40% rushing, You can find the occasional GB but even they want to run it more, And they have no Beanie Wells. Its feast or famine in all phases of the NFL game when you pass like your hair is on fire.

I don't even know why I bother, but that equates to at least 320 carries a year - exactly 1 running back got that many carries last year (MJD) - and that was because his team was devoid of any other offensive weapons. I want this team to have a balanced offense - having a RB in the top 3 in the league in carries doesn't translate to the type of balanced offense that currently exists in the NFL. Beanie was 9th in the NFL in carries/game average last year. With a better complimentary back (hopefully Ryan Williams this year) and more consistent QB play (we all hope), I don't see the number of attempts Beanie is getting as the issue that is holding this team back.

And if we are going to cherry pick stats, it's worth noting that in the 6 games where Beanie had at least the 20 carries you suggest he needs, half the time he failed to gain more than 67 yards.

I'm all for a more balanced offense (especially if we are behind but still in striking distance early in games), but your never ending insistence that the team should move so far over to the other end of the spectrum in terms of run vs. pass is something that I'll just never understand.

 

[gmabel830]

Beanie was 9th with 240 carries, the cards were like 24th out of 31. and many of them were Kolb and skelton scrambles. But they improved over last in attempts and yards the 3 previous years and it did help our defense.

I mean 389 rushes to 550 passes with skolbton is better than 320 rushes to 561 with DA/Hall/Skelton/Bartel but not by a hell of a lot- in my book. That puts great pressure on the OLine, QB, Defense and ST. It just does, I am tired of harping but it is still less than 40% with unsettled QB's.

link
http://www.nfl.com/teams/arizonacardinals/statistics?season=2011&team=ARI&seasonType=

Good coaches on good teams don't do that, No offseason, short camp. I mean look no further than the Patriots and the Colts- They never had great running games - BUT they ran it when they qwon SB's. Same with Giants, last in rushing but tey ran it none the less.

The best case study is our cardinals 112 rushes in the 08 playoffs, THT had 143 as the starting RB in reg season in 08 and 09! I think with a lil more patient playcalling we would have more than 10 rushes in the SB loss and the Saints destruction of our franchise.

sorry can't win consistant with less than 40% rushing, You can find the occasional GB but even they want to run it more, And they have no Beanie Wells. Its feast or famine in all phases of the NFL game when you pass like your hair is on fire.

I don't disagree we need to get more balance, but I do disagree that giving a RB who still hasn't proved he can stay healthy over the long haul 25 carries every game is the solution. Getting more production from a complimentary back (Williams) and more consistent QB play will solve more problems than running Beanie into the ground.

 

[THESMEL]

well taken

I agree . I just think you give Beanie what he wants 7 early carries to feel out the defense and set the tone like AP gets? Nobody can deny that our playcallers have not gave Beanie the featured back carries - which eliminates the best part of Beanies game. The single time they did HE BROKE THE FRANCHISE ALL TIME RECORD on one leg.

I applaud and support the Bean for that against anybody anywhere anytime. Even if they are Card fans sitting in our stands. THe 09 GB playoff game was a stand out performance against the #1 rush defense. Lost is the Warner-Rodgers pass fest - but we had a 3 score lead at the end of the first quarter = beanie produced so the play action passing ruled.

14 for 91 against the number 1 rush defense in the playoffs. I think our coaches and playcallers overthink crap every game. We will see what the playcaller (fomer PGC) does with a defense he can trust. I hope for the best.

but hurt or not The Bean must be given the chance to establish the run to maximize his effectiveness. And he has been neutered into a streak performer looking for the big play to get more carries, instead of appreciated for moving the chains, wearing down a defense and throwing the defense down and having his way with them in the 4th 1/4. They deserved to be beaned! They are the opponent! for hell's sake.

I don't disagree we need to get more balance, but I do disagree that giving a RB who still hasn't proved he can stay healthy over the long haul 25 carries every game is the solution. Getting more production from a complimentary back (Williams) and more consistent QB play will solve more problems than running Beanie into the ground.