Whisenhunt and the 3-4 alignment

[Cbus cardsfan]

I'll come out and say it straight: no linebacker in this class is going to turn out to be as good as Shawne Merriman or DeMarcus Ware, barring injury. Those guys are special talents.

or that 3rd round talent,Terrell Suggs .

 

[JeffGollin]

Wouldn't this defense make Alan Branch a choice in the first round? Or at least more of a choice?

It would help to have a more dominant NT in any of our defenses - a 3-4, a 4-3 or a hybrid. Maybe Watson will grow into dominance, but Branch would be an interesting option. (I think he's suffering from "too much time before the draft" nitpicking syndrome).

But equally as possible might be Carriker if we could trade down a bit. Carriker would make both a terrific large DE as well as a quick, explosive UT..

 

[Heucrazy]

It would help to have a more dominant NT in any of our defenses - a 3-4, a 4-3 or a hybrid. Maybe Watson will grow into dominance, but Branch would be an interesting option. (I think he's suffering from "too much time before the draft" nitpicking syndrome).

But equally as possible might be Carriker if we could trade down a bit. Carriker would make both a terrific large DE as well as a quick, explosive UT..

I think Clancy is a dominant NT. The guy was hurt last year but when he was in he was good.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

I think Clancy is a dominant NT. The guy was hurt last year but when he was in he was good.

Dominant, hardly. Above average maybe, but not dominant in any sense of the word.

 

[Heucrazy]

Dominant, hardly. Above average maybe, but not dominant in any sense of the word.

That whole run defense being better with him in and worse when he's out thing begs to differ.

 

[Mitch]

I think Clancy is a dominant NT. The guy was hurt last year but when he was in he was good.

He (Clancy) came into the league as a NT.

The DT/DE tweeners who could surprise here are Antonio Smith and Chris Cooper whose games translate well into the 3-4 DE position.

The 3-4 depth chart looks like this:

LOLB OKEAFOR, Pace

LDE DOCKETT, Kolodziej

NT CLANCY, Watson, Lewis

RDE SMITH, Cooper

ROLB BERRY, Blackstock, Johnson

LILB DANSBY, Johnson

RILB HAYES, Beisel

LCB ROLLE, Hunter

SS WILSON, Milligan

FS FRANCISCO, Holt

RCB HOOD, Green, Ware

The defensive players in this draft who could really help in the 3-4:

#5 (Round 1)

DE Jamaal Anderson--prototypical 3-4 DE
LB Patrick Willis--tackling machine

#38 (Round 2)

DE Charles Johnson--solid 3-4 DE prospect
NT Tank Tyler--made to order as NFL NT...strong and sturdy
LB David Harris--tough and reliable on the inside
LB Brandon Siler--productive junior is always around the ball
CB Marcus McCauley--super talented, needs coaching
CB Tanard Jackson--tough and aggressive--great upside

#69 (Round 3)

DE Ikaika Alama-Francis--has bulked up to 6-5/280 and is very athletic
DE Baraka Atkins--also 6-5/280--needs technique work--good motor
DE Ray McDonald--6-3/285--talented Gator--raw
LB H.B. Blades--lacks height but is tough and instinctive
LB Stewart Bradley--has size and forces runs well
CB Eric Wright--ex-Trojan with noteworthy skill--character issues?
CB David Irons--is tough and has man-to-man skills

 

[BigWatson]

It would help to have a more dominant NT in any of our defenses - a 3-4, a 4-3 or a hybrid. Maybe Watson will grow into dominance, but Branch would be an interesting option. (I think he's suffering from "too much time before the draft" nitpicking syndrome).

But equally as possible might be Carriker if we could trade down a bit. Carriker would make both a terrific large DE as well as a quick, explosive UT..

branch is NOT a 3-4 nose tackle. hes too tall, not bulky enough. he should lose about 10 pounds and then switch to DE in a 3-4 defense. or he could stay at 320 and play DT in a 4-3. but thats about it. plus he can rush the passer. hes not a 3-4 NT.

 

[BigRedArk]

Some Defensive players are made for the 4-3 and some are made for the 3-4. If I am right about that what type of front 7 guys are the Cards gonna look for in this draft? The ones that are versatile enough to play both or 3-4 guys? If you only consider guys that can play both don't you narrow your pool of draft talent down considerably? I hope they have made this decision before they start drafting guys this year too btw.

 

[BigWatson]

I think Clancy is a dominant NT. The guy was hurt last year but when he was in he was good.

theres a difference between playing NT in a 4-3 and a 3-4. it doesnt really matter what you play in a 4-3 defense. nose tackle, under tackle. not that big of a deal. a lot of teams line up their bigger players at UT instead of NT.

and no, clancy wasnt dominant at all. and i dont want to see this barely 300 lbs guy lining up at NT in a 3-4 defense. he will not be able to occupy 2 or even 3 blockers. hayes and especially dansby need protection. by the end of training camp and pre season watson should be in shape to become our starting NT

 

[Shogun]

I honestly think that Dansby can play outside in the 3-4. He was projected to be able to play that when he came out of the draft.

 

[BigWatson]

NT Tank Tyler--made to order as NFL NT...strong and sturdy

tyler is a 3 technique DT. just like bunkley and okoye

 

[Heucrazy]

That whole run defense being better with him in and worse when he's out thing begs to differ.

theres a difference between playing NT in a 4-3 and a 3-4. it doesnt really matter what you play in a 4-3 defense. nose tackle, under tackle. not that big of a deal. a lot of teams line up their bigger players at UT instead of NT.

and no, clancy wasnt dominant at all. and i dont want to see this barely 300 lbs guy lining up at NT in a 3-4 defense. he will not be able to occupy 2 or even 3 blockers. hayes and especially dansby need protection. by the end of training camp and pre season watson should be in shape to become our starting NT

 

[BigWatson]

That whole run defense being better with him in and worse when he's out thing begs to differ.

hes a solid 4-3 tackle, no doubt about it. but in a 3-4 defense you need guys that can control the middle. in a 3-4 defense he will not have another DT next to him thats going to help him not getting double or even triple teamed on a regular basis. he will not have that guy next to him in a 3-4. and at barely 300 pounds he is just too small to play the NT position. look around the nfl, the best nose tackles are in the 330-350 lbs range. guys like jamal williams, wilfork, hampton and company

 

[Covert Rain]

What are you talking about? The Steelers have been a 3-4 team for seemingly 20 years. As long as I can remember. The example that you might have used effectively was the Baltimore Ravens, who experimented with it for three years before converting to a predominantly 4-3 alignment again to protect Ray Lewis and extend his career. Or the Cowboys, who basically burned an entire draft building up the talent to make it successful two seasons ago. The Chargers had to do essentially the same thing two years ago.

Unfortunately, the Cards have pressing needs on offense that prevents that from happening, and there aren't talents like Marcus Spears, Luis Castillo, Shawne Merriman, etc. available in this draft.

On the other hand, you can try and switch on the fly without investing in personnel, but you end up stinking, like the Falcons defense did a few years ago when they brought in Wade Phillips to orchestrate their defense.

I'm not saying the 3-4 doesn't work. I'm saying that transitioning to the 3-4 requires a step back before you can take two steps forward, and that it takes a few seasons for that to happen, even with a coach that's immersed in 3-4 principles, which Clancy Pendergast is not.

Again, what does that have to do with this team? Your making a generalization. Each team is different. How can you take a step back if you have not even tried it yet? It's not like he is going with a full blown 3-4 scheme. I think by putting in some 3-4 looks, he is doing exactly what he should be doing and taking it slow. Most of those teams that failed didn't take the same approach the Whiz is. So comparing the two approaches makes no sense.

Also, basically I said the same thing about our personel. I think the teams needs to make changes over the next couple years to even get there. I don't think anybody wants to see a full blown 3-4 with the guys we have. If Whiz was trying that then I think you would have a point.

 

[Duckjake]

Because everyone knew that those guys were talented when they came out? I was hoping that the Cards would draft Shawne Merriman that year instead of Antrel Rolle.

Merriman was basically an afterthought in '05 in Cardinal draft discussions. Hardly mentioned at all other than to talk about how physically talented he was and whether he was going to Cleveland or Dallas.

Probably because he wasn't on the Cards radar which was so focused that many people had predicted the Cards taking Rolle in the first and JJ in the 2nd.

BTW: K9 What happened to Sione Pouha, did he have knee problems last season?

 

[kerouac9]

Merriman was basically an afterthought in '05 in Cardinal draft discussions. Hardly mentioned at all other than to talk about how physically talented he was and whether he was going to Cleveland or Dallas.

Probably because he wasn't on the Cards radar which was so focused that many people had predicted the Cards taking Rolle in the first and JJ in the 2nd.

BTW: K9 What happened to Sione Pouha, did he have knee problems last season?

Why was that? Oh, I remember! It's because we were forced to draft for need, and so we ended up with Antrel "Don't Call Me Tommy Knight" Rolle instead of the best defensive player in that draft. Who's excited to go through that again?

I don't know about Pouha. He was inactive all season for the Jets. Scouts, Inc said that he suffered a preseason knee injury. I actually kind of hate the Jets so I don't follow them.

 

[kerouac9]

Also, basically I said the same thing about our personel. I think the teams needs to make changes over the next couple years to even get there. I don't think anybody wants to see a full blown 3-4 with the guys we have. If Whiz was trying that then I think you would have a point.

Don't look now, SteelDog, but that's exactly what he's trying. Enjoy our crappy defense.

 

[football karma]

Merriman was basically an afterthought in '05 in Cardinal draft discussions. Hardly mentioned at all other than to talk about how physically talented he was and whether he was going to Cleveland or Dallas.

Probably because he wasn't on the Cards radar which was so focused that many people had predicted the Cards taking Rolle in the first and JJ in the 2nd.

BTW: K9 What happened to Sione Pouha, did he have knee problems last season?

Both Merriman and Ware were viewed as perfect for 3-4 teams -- but a ? for 4-3 teams -- undersized for end, unknown as OLBs

As I recall, the real debate was if the Cards should take Derrick Johnson, who was viewed as more of a pure 4-3 OLB.

It will be interesting to see how Merriman plays post steriod suspension

 

[football karma]

Why was that? Oh, I remember! It's because we were forced to draft for need, and so we ended up with Antrel "Don't Call Me Tommy Knight" Rolle instead of the best defensive player in that draft. Who's excited to go through that again?

Merriman was the fifth defensive player taken --

its revisionist history to suggest that the Cardinals knowingly passed on the best defensiver player in the draft because the needed a cb

Everybody had Rolle as one of the top 3 defensive players in that draft

 

[earthsci]

Merriman was the fifth defensive player taken --

its revisionist history to suggest that the Cardinals knowingly passed on the best defensiver player in the draft because the needed a cb

Everybody had Rolle as one of the top 3 defensive players in that draft

Stop it. That doesn't work for K9.

 

[Duckjake]

Why was that? Oh, I remember! It's because we were forced to draft for need, and so we ended up with Antrel "Don't Call Me Tommy Knight" Rolle instead of the best defensive player in that draft. Who's excited to go through that again?

I don't know about Pouha. He was inactive all season for the Jets. Scouts, Inc said that he suffered a preseason knee injury. I actually kind of hate the Jets so I don't follow them.

I thought maybe you had kept up with him because you had mentioned him in 2005 as one of your favorite guys and I was looking around the league comparing other guys drafted that year to our draftees. But then I tend to stop following guys once the draft is over too so no big deal.

As for Merriman hardly anyone was talking about him on ASFN at all not just as a potential pick for the Cards. Most likely because he was projected as a 3-4 LB. A lot of people talked about drafting DJohnson and Merriman's name wouldn't even come up in those threads.

As for drafting for need, the Cards have always had so many holes they couldn't do anything else in the first round. The only time in recent years they haven't had to do that was in '04 when they took Fitz as part of Denny's employment package. Heck, even Leinart was a need pick.

 

[Pariah]

Why was that? Oh, I remember! It's because we were forced to draft for need, and so we ended up with Antrel "Don't Call Me Tommy Knight" Rolle instead of the best defensive player in that draft. Who's excited to go through that again?

None of the experts even casted a sideways glance at the Cardinals for taking Rolle. That was a fine pick at the time. Looking back is Merriman the best defensive player in the draft? Hell yeah. But it certainly wasn't a consensus at the time.

For a guy who jumps down anyone's throat when they color their world with their own biases, you sure seem to have a lot of your own. How's that working out for you?

 

[kerouac9]

I thought maybe you had kept up with him because you had mentioned him in 2005 as one of your favorite guys and I was looking around the league comparing other guys drafted that year to our draftees. But then I tend to stop following guys once the draft is over too so no big deal.

As for Merriman hardly anyone was talking about him on ASFN at all not just as a potential pick for the Cards. Most likely because he was projected as a 3-4 LB. A lot of people talked about drafting DJohnson and Merriman's name wouldn't even come up in those threads.

As for drafting for need, the Cards have always had so many holes they couldn't do anything else in the first round. The only time in recent years they haven't had to do that was in '04 when they took Fitz as part of Denny's employment package. Heck, even Leinart was a need pick.

Oh, I think you're thinking of the season before, when I really wanted Isaac Sopoaga, who plays NT for the 49ers. He actually had a great season last year, 1.5 sacks, 3 passes defensed, and a fumble. I wanted that kid bad. This was the 2005 draft.

I remember Russ Smith being in love with Derrick Johnson in that draft. He's been a good player for the Chiefs, but I don't think he's developed into the playmaker that Russ was expecting. He's a guy that's due for a huge breakout year this year, I think.

We didn't take a look at Merriman that season because Bert Berry'd had his great season and we'd signed Chike Okeafor to his huge contract. If you ran that draft over again, though, is there any question that Merriman would have gone #1 overall? Where would Antrel Rolle (Whom I didn't like at the time) have gone? Would he even be in the Top 10?

1. Shawne Merriman (the 49ers had the first overall and were changing to a 3-4--Mike Nolan must kick himself every day)
2. Carnell Williams
3. Ronnie Brown
4. Alex Smith
5. Alex Barron
6. Carlos Rogers
7. Jamaal Brown
8. Derrick Johnson
9. Braylon Edwards
10. DeMarcus Ware

Something like that? The funny thing is that--just based on his play--Adam Jones would have been Top 5 on that list. He had a better return average than Devin Hester last season.

You know, that 2005 draft was laden with talent. There were some crappy picks here and there (CB Justin Miller? Who is that?), but that was a really great draft, depth-wise. Teams that had a lot of selections in that draft are going to be good for a while.

 

[Duckjake]

Looking back is Merriman the best defensive player in the draft? Hell yeah. But it certainly wasn't a consensus at the time.

You have to wonder though would Merriman have been as dominating in a 4-3 as he was in the Chargers 3-4?

DeMarcus Ware put up some fairly good numbers last year as well. 11.5 sacks, 5 FF, and 1 INT.

Could Dansby put up those type numbers in a 3-4? He almost did last year in the 4-3 or whatever the Cards were running. 80 tackles and 8 sacks.

 

[football karma]

You know, that 2005 draft was laden with talent. There were some crappy picks here and there (CB Justin Miller? Who is that?), but that was a really great draft, depth-wise. Teams that had a lot of selections in that draft are going to be good for a while.

I can live with the 2002 draft -- it was a bad one for almost everybody in the nfl.

But to blow a good draft hurts and the Cards have gotten nothing from that draft. Rolle and Eric Green need to step up this season to salvage it.

BTW -- isnt Alex Barron considered a bust, or at least not worth his draft spot? I know when Bulger called out teammates after the Cards beat them -- many thought it was Barron he was referring to.