Whisenhunt and the 3-4 alignment

[RonF]

I have to question where you got that quote. Was that a direct copy and paste of the quote or a summary of what you read. The only thing that mentions Matts shoulder was in Urbans artcicle and it states.

"Quarterback Matt Leinart, who had to rehabilitate his left shoulder after injuring it in Week 16 last season, will participate but will be monitored."

http://eastvalleytribune.com/story/87646

I only ask this becuase I know for a fact that Matt did not need surgery after the season and hasnt got any surgery since.

http://www.azcentral.com/sports/cardinals/articles/1227leinart-ON.html

It was a direct copy, but for the life of me, I can't locate the site that I first read it.

 

[kerouac9]

You have to wonder though would Merriman have been as dominating in a 4-3 as he was in the Chargers 3-4?

DeMarcus Ware put up some fairly good numbers last year as well. 11.5 sacks, 5 FF, and 1 INT.

Could Dansby put up those type numbers in a 3-4? He almost did last year in the 4-3 or whatever the Cards were running. 80 tackles and 8 sacks.

In 14 games, no less. But I don't think Dansby would be as effective. Why? Because Ware outweighs Dansby by almost 10 pounds, and Dansby isn't that much faster than Ware. Ware's able to push around OTs better than Dansby is, who gets protection from Berry or Okeafor on the inside.

The thing about moving Dansby to ILB is that you take away a ton of his playmaking ability. Jonathan Vilma might be the best defensive player the Jets have, but he had 0 sacks and 1 INT last season for them. James Farrior might be the best ILB in the NFL right now, but he only had 80 tackles and 4 sacks. Interior linebackers in a 3-4 are about Dansby's size (Farrior's 243), but they don't get to play in space.

Allowing Dansby to play in space was the whole reason they tried to convert Calvin Pace to an SLB last season.

 

[kerouac9]

I can live with the 2002 draft -- it was a bad one for almost everybody in the nfl.

But to blow a good draft hurts and the Cards have gotten nothing from that draft. Rolle and Eric Green need to step up this season to salvage it.

BTW -- isnt Alex Barron considered a bust, or at least not worth his draft spot? I know when Bulger called out teammates after the Cards beat them -- many thought it was Barron he was referring to.

Rolle, Green, and Arrington need to step up to the plate this season. As of right now, only the biggest homers on the board would rather have them than Carlos Rogers, Lofa Tatupu, and Ryan Moats, who were all selected shortly after them (actually, that would have been a pretty great first day).

On Barron, I think that he's considered pretty good. TSN rates him as "adequate" on the right side, but I think he regressed a little from a very good rookie season. The player that I actually meant to write was Jamaal Brown at that #5 spot, who is one of the more underrated OL in the NFL today.

 

[football karma]

Jamaal Brown is very good --

ironically -- right after the college season -- Brown was considered a better prospect than Barron

after digesting the "measurables" for four months, Barron goes higher.

I think there is a lesson there.

 

[Covert Rain]

Don't look now, SteelDog, but that's exactly what he's trying. Enjoy our crappy defense.

No he's not. He is not going to open the season with our defense primarily playing in the 3-4. If he was I would probably agree with you from the standpoint that we don't have the right guys. That's not was he is doing. Giving an occasional 3-4 look will not make or break this defense. If it sucks it's because of the guys back there and not the occasional scheme change.

 

[Duckjake]

The thing about moving Dansby to ILB is that you take away a ton of his playmaking ability.

Why would Dansby move inside? Both Merriman and Ware are listed at Right outside linebacker. Wouldn't that be where you'd play Dansby?

I guess I need to brush up on the 3-4. Since it hasn't been the Cards main defense I haven't really studied it.

 

[kerouac9]

Why would Dansby move inside? Both Merriman and Ware are listed at Right outside linebacker. Wouldn't that be where you'd play Dansby?

I guess I need to brush up on the 3-4. Since it hasn't been the Cards main defense I haven't really studied it.

Dansby's too small to play on the outside. Again, Ware and Merriman outweigh Dansby by 10-15 pounds each.

From Somer's Blog, April 11, 01:42 a.m.:

This weekend's minicamp is voluntary, and players aren't allowed to wear pads or have much contact. Still, it's going to be an interesting three days.

It's the first time we get to see Ken Whisenhunt and his coaching staff in action. And we should get an idea of some of the plans for 2007.

I'll be most intrigued to see how the defense lines up. There are growing indications that the club will be using the 3-4 more than the 4-3, with Karlos Dansby and Gerald Hayes inside and Chike Okeafor and Bertrand Berry as outside linebackers.

The minicamp is closed to the public but the media is allowed to watch. I'll try to give you updates here after practices, which are in the mornings and afternoons on Friday and Saturday and just in the morning on Sunday.

So, there you go. Your move, SteelDog.

DJ, here's some stuff I found on 3-4 defense principles:

Football 101 Defensive Line Adjustments
Chuck Lambert on Principles of the 3-4 Defense

The Steelers were so good at implementing the 3-4 for so long because they could get great value on the tweener prospects that no one else wanted. Now, there are a lot of teams that run a 3-4 primary look (Cleveland, Pittsburgh, San Francisco, San Diego, Dallas, New York Jets--with the Ravens and Raiders throwing in doses of the 3-4 as well) that those players are a lot more coveted and go earlier in the draft.

The only teams that I can think of that do a good job of switching between the 3-4 and 4-3 are the Raiders and Ravens, and they both have DCs with the last name of Ryan, and I can't believe that that's a coincidence.

 

[BigWatson]

The thing about moving Dansby to ILB is that you take away a ton of his playmaking ability.

3-4 OLBs dont do too much. they blitz or they stop the run, thats about it. ILBs however they blitz, stop the run and they cover a lot, and thats one of dansbys strengths. like i said, at ILB he can have the same type of season bart scott had last year. 100+ tackles, close to 10 sacks and a couple of interceptions

Jonathan Vilma might be the best defensive player the Jets have, but he had 0 sacks and 1 INT last season for them. James Farrior might be the best ILB in the NFL right now, but he only had 80 tackles and 4 sacks. Interior linebackers in a 3-4 are about Dansby's size (Farrior's 243), but they don't get to play in space.

Allowing Dansby to play in space was the whole reason they tried to convert Calvin Pace to an SLB last season.

farrior almost won the d-mvp award in 04 as a 3-4 ilb. last season he had 126 tackles, 4 sacks and an interception. thats pretty good.

 

[BigRedArk]

Man I hope they can figure out how to go between the 4-3 and the 3-4 but it seems like the con's could outweigh the pro's of it. Seems like we could really make ourselves vulnerable by asking Berry and Okeafor to go into pass coverage. I prefer to do one or the other. That way you're not as likely to play guys out of position which the opposing Offense could exploit. Eh what do I know?

 

[kerouac9]

farrior almost won the d-mvp award in 04 as a 3-4 ilb. last season he had 126 tackles, 4 sacks and an interception. thats pretty good.

In comparison to what? Dansby had 8 sacks, 72 tackles, forced 2 fumbles and had 2 passes defensed in 14 games last season.

Farrior had an incredible year in 2004, but that's not common for 3-4 ILBs, which makes it all the more impressive.

I don't know where you get the idea that it's the ILBs in a 3-4 defense who make the plays, though.

Joey Porter was the star for the Steelers and collected far more sacks than Farrior did over the last four seasons. Without question Merriman is the star of the Chargers' 3-4; he collected 8 passes defensed last season to go along with his 17 sacks (in 12 games!!!!).

DeMarcus Ware was even more of a playmaker in Dallas's 3-4 lineup, collecting 11.5 sacks, forcing 5 fumbles, defensing 6 passes, and taking his lone INT to the house. Akin Ayoele and James Brady didn't come close to that.

Again, placing Jonathan Vilma in a 3-4 probably stunted his development. He hasn't been the same player since the Jets transitioned after a rookie season in which he collected 2 sacks and 3 INTs playing MLB.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

I think Merriman would've been drafted much higher if the league knew he going to hit the juice as hard as he has. How do you think Luis Castillo got into round 1? He,at least, showed pre-draft that he was willing to juice and made himslef millions of follars.But he did say sorry . Funny, another Charger there.

 

[ajcardfan]

Another thing, most of you have been wanting the cardinals to switch to the 3-4 for years. They are actually doing it and now you are complaining about it. Get a grip people.

Since when is Mitch "most people"?

 

[BigRedArk]

It's good to utilize the talents of your players...

I just hope that Whis and Pendy don't get so "tricky" that they are confusing their own players more than the opposition!

Me too.

 

[BigWatson]

In comparison to what? Dansby had 8 sacks, 72 tackles, forced 2 fumbles and had 2 passes defensed in 14 games last season.

Farrior had an incredible year in 2004, but that's not common for 3-4 ILBs, which makes it all the more impressive.

I don't know where you get the idea that it's the ILBs in a 3-4 defense who make the plays, though.

Joey Porter was the star for the Steelers and collected far more sacks than Farrior did over the last four seasons. Without question Merriman is the star of the Chargers' 3-4; he collected 8 passes defensed last season to go along with his 17 sacks (in 12 games!!!!).

DeMarcus Ware was even more of a playmaker in Dallas's 3-4 lineup, collecting 11.5 sacks, forcing 5 fumbles, defensing 6 passes, and taking his lone INT to the house. Akin Ayoele and James Brady didn't come close to that.

Again, placing Jonathan Vilma in a 3-4 probably stunted his development. He hasn't been the same player since the Jets transitioned after a rookie season in which he collected 2 sacks and 3 INTs playing MLB.

sorry, i really dont know what your point is. you pretty much said dansby will be useless at ILB. i said you are wrong, and thats a fact. look at bart scott, james farrior, zach thomas, donnie edwards, ray lewis (03), brandon moore...basically on every 3-4 defense you have an ILB who puts up ridiculous stats. and dansby will be the one on our defense. he will cover, he will blitz and he will stop the run. like i said, he could easily get 100+ tackles, close to 10 sacks and some picks next season

 

[BigRedArk]

3-4 OLBs dont do too much. they blitz or they stop the run, thats about it. ILBs however they blitz, stop the run and they cover a lot, and thats one of dansbys strengths. like i said, at ILB he can have the same type of season bart scott had last year. 100+ tackles, close to 10 sacks and a couple of interceptions



farrior almost won the d-mvp award in 04 as a 3-4 ilb. last season he had 126 tackles, 4 sacks and an interception. thats pretty good.

ILB'S cover instead of OLB's in the 3-4? I thought it would be just the opposite.

 

[BigWatson]

ILB'S cover instead of OLB's in the 3-4? I thought it would be just the opposite.

um, no. usually the 3-4 OLBs will rush the passer on passing downs while the ILBs drop back in coverage. of course they mix it up a little from time to time

 

[Skkorpion]

I hate the 3-4. When it really matters, the good passing attacks torch it.

 

[ajcardfan]

I hate the 3-4. When it really matters, the good passing attacks torch it.

I don't like it either Skkorp. And, I certainly hope we aren't using it too much this season. Our front 7 is a miserable match for a 3-4 scheme.

 

[kerouac9]

Ray Lewis begged his team to convert back to a base 4-3, and they did it for him. His stats took a beating when they switched schemes. Especially his sack stats.

Has Zach Thomas gone to a Pro Bowl since the Dolphins adopted a 3-4? He was never as good as he was reputed to be. He wasn't a pass rusher, so he wasn't asked to do much.

I'm not really sure what you mean by "ridiculous stats". Do you mean straight tackle numbers? Ronald McKinnon and Pat Tillman put up silly tackle numbers here, but it didn't make them suck any less. In most of the other impact metrics (sacks, INTs, PDs, Forced fumbles), you're looking at outside linebackers who make the plays.

Are you really going to tell me that ILBs are greater impact players than OLBs in a 3-4 defense when I just pointed out to you that Merriman collected 17 sacks in 12 games last season?

Right now, for this personnel, a switch to a base 3-4 defense will result in poor defensive play and a 2-14 record. Who was the last 3-4 ILB to collect 10 sacks? What year?

 

[conraddobler]

I hate the 3-4. When it really matters, the good passing attacks torch it.

These little things are starting to give me some indigestion about Whis and CO.

On the one hand I like the guy and what he says, although I've heard all this stuff before.

On the other hand I'm starting to think he thinks he can remake us into the Steelers West. I'm not smart enough to predict how that's going to play out but it worries me.

First of all the Steelers are well the Steelers, I'm not saying you can't take basic principles from them and improve our team, I'm just saying in our circumstance it's an odd model to use and it's even more odd if you expect to win this year.

At first your rebuild theory didn't seem likely, now it not only seems likely, it's almost looking inevitable and wow, that's just not smart we as a fanbase considering the new stadium do not have the patience for that.

The 3-4 works, but a lot of the shine wanes on it once more and more teams use it, then the pendulum swings back but our personell are just not there to play it, combine that with wanting to be a run first team with a dufus Oline and I see some major danger ahead.

I hope Whis is a real wiz, he's going to have to be to overcome this stuff, they say our schedule is easy, to me it looks pretty tough, I think we could legitimately lose 4 of 5 games to start the year and dig a huge hole that will blast any honeymoon all to heck.

I'm not doom and gloom but wow things are starting to align badly IMO, luckily I'm wrong so often this all could be a good thing and I hope so.

I wanted Norm Chow the most simply because I think the guy would have improved on what we have and not blown it up heading off in any one direction, I think he would have maximized the strenghts and covered the weaknesses where he could.

Time will tell on Whis but the omens are bad IMO, teams reflect the city they come from, Pittsburg is tough blue collar and loves the run smashmouth game, what about Arizona says that to you?

To me a high tech passing offense based on precision would fit the areas personality much better and the fans would respond much more, I think you couldn't go in a more wrong direction in other words, again I hope I'm wrong.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Time will tell on Whis but the omens are bad IMO, teams reflect the city they come from, Pittsburg is tough blue collar and loves the run smashmouth game, what about Arizona says that to you?

there's a lot of blue hairs in Sun City - but that's about it.

 

[Shogun]

Has Zach Thomas gone to a Pro Bowl since the Dolphins adopted a 3-4? He was never as good as he was reputed to be. He wasn't a pass rusher, so he wasn't asked to do much.

Yes, in 2006 and in '05 he led the team with 150+ tackles despite only playing 14 games.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

i don't mind Whiz going to a 3-4. If that's his philosohy then so be it. A coach should do what he believes in. THe problem is getting the personnel to switch will take some time. That's why i think it will be a gradual transition because you have to adapt your philosphy to your personnel,somewhat, and he seems to be doing that.

 

[BigWatson]

I hate the 3-4. When it really matters, the good passing attacks torch it.

isnt that like...improvement? i mean right now were getting torched by EVERY offense, on a weekly basis, no matter what the score is.

besides when was the last time you saw a QB throw for 300+ yds, 4tds against the ravens, patriots or steelers defense? as a matter of fact those three teams were the only ones a guy like peyton manning struggled against. the patriots destroyed manning over and over again. the steelers killed him in 05 when they won the superbowl and the ravens totally shut him down last season (about 150 passing yds, 0 tds)

 

[Skkorpion]

Conrad, I'm hoping they are just putting in the 3-4 now because nobody on the Cards has played it under Pendergast and need the learning time. We could still end up playing more 4-3.

That said, a coach deserves to play his way, so we may just have to hope Whisenhunt's offense can carry us to a few more wins than last year.