Whisenhunt and the 3-4 alignment

[The Commish]

Pasquarelli - Cards Adding 3-4 to Defense

Couldn’t post the full article, but here is the small piece on the Cardinals adding the 3-4 to their defense.


Whisenhunt has Cardinals adding 3-4 to defense

By Len Pasquarelli
ESPN.com

First-year coach Ken Whisenhunt is an offensive coordinator by trade, of course, but the most notable differences in the Arizona Cardinals when they convene for their initial three-day minicamp this weekend might actually be on defense.

It's the job of every head coach to impose his fingerprint on every facet of a team, not just his primary area of expertise, and Whisenhunt is aiming to do just that with the Cardinals. And quickly.

Whisenhunt has considerable exposure to the 3-4 defense from his six seasons working with Dick LeBeau in Pittsburgh. And he has now asked holdover defensive coordinator Clancy Pendergast, an innovative guy whose personal preference has been the 4-3 front, to incorporate some 3-4 elements into what the Cardinals do in 2007.

"I want us to be more flexible," Whisenhunt said. "I think it will give us a little different look, and some maneuverability, so we'll see how it works."

The transition to a 3-4, even as a part-time scheme, will mean some changes for Arizona personnel. Tackle Darnell Dockett, who the team feels is ready to emerge as a Pro Bowl performer, will be asked to play some end when the Cardinals jump into a 3-4. Linebacker Karlos Dansby will be stacked more inside. And ends Bertrand Berry and Chike Okeafor, the team's best sack threats, might rush more from a two-point stance, standing up as linebackers. How well the players react to the changes in the minicamps might determine just how ambitious Pendergast becomes during the season.

But it's clear that Whisenhunt, hired in part to get the most out of the Cardinals' array of young talent on offense, understands he's the coach of the entire team. He knows what he wants on defense and is wasting little time trying to enact some of his ideas in that area.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/insi...ist=pasquarelli_len&id=2836372&CMP=ILC-INHEAD

 

[Skkorpion]

isnt that like...improvement? i mean right now were getting torched by EVERY offense, on a weekly basis, no matter what the score is.

besides when was the last time you saw a QB throw for 300+ yds, 4tds against the ravens, patriots or steelers defense? as a matter of fact those three teams were the only ones a guy like peyton manning struggled against. the patriots destroyed manning over and over again. the steelers killed him in 05 when they won the superbowl and the ravens totally shut him down last season (about 150 passing yds, 0 tds)

Watson, it has happened often enough the last few years. I just don't have the time today to look up the stats but I accept your challenge. I'll look it all up tomorrow and I think you'll be surprised.

 

[BigRedArk]

um, no. usually the 3-4 OLBs will rush the passer on passing downs while the ILBs drop back in coverage. of course they mix it up a little from time to time

I was thinking the OLB's would cover because they are faster afoot. Ok thanks.

 

[perivolaki]

Conrad, I'm hoping they are just putting in the 3-4 now because nobody on the Cards has played it under Pendergast and need the learning time. We could still end up playing more 4-3.

That said, a coach deserves to play his way, so we may just have to hope Whisenhunt's offense can carry us to a few more wins than last year.

Hold it a minute, they were basically playing 3-4 at the end of last year. A lot of the time they were operating with 3 down linemen and Chike was standing up. It seemed to be pretty effective when we tried it.

We were kind of forced into it because Berry was hurt and we lost a lot of our pass rush. Chike really seemed to get a lot of pressure on the QB and got several sacks when he was moving around in an upright position.

I think a lot of the players are familiar with the principals of the defense from what they did last year.

 

[JeffGollin]

And he has now asked holdover defensive coordinator Clancy Pendergast, an innovative guy whose personal preference has been the 4-3 front, to incorporate some 3-4 elements into what the Cardinals do in 2007.
This is a far cry from transforming our team totally into a 3 - 4.

There are some benefits to running a hybrid defense incorporating both schemes (sometimes toggling back and forth during the same play):

- You can confuse offensive blockers because they don't know whether someone like Dockett is protecting an inside gap or whether he'll be floating outside to contain the outside run. Or whether Okeafor is coming or whether he'll drop back in coverage.

- Instead of limiting yourself to certain types of players who either fit a 3 -4 mold or a 4 -3, you can be flexible and versatile enough to tweak your defense according to the abilities of the guys you've already got.

Accordingly, I wouldn't get hung up on such things as whether Dansby can't play as well as Ware on the weakside in a 3- 4 (Right now, Pendergast has him lining up inside anyway). Or how much we'll need to depend on a 330 (vs. 299) lb nose tackle. We'll determine what fronts work best with the guys we've got and employ those.

(Note - Other than Branch, this isn't a particularly deep draft year for big widebodies. Then again, it seldom is - there aren't that many 330 lb people (who are more than "BFG's" - big fat guys) on the planet. Right now the only really big NT we've got is Watson - and Clancy is currently listed ahead of him on the early depth chart). Don't look for much help here in the draft. 328 lb Louis Leonard is a late round or UDFA possibility, but he profiles as an underacheiving BFG).

 

[BigWatson]

we are set at NT. watson should start and clancy adds excellent depth. we could use another 3-4 DE and a pass rushing DE/OLB (woodley etc) but thats about it. IMO.

 

[JeffGollin]

we are set at NT. watson should start and clancy adds excellent depth. we could use another 3-4 DE and a pass rushing DE/OLB (woodley etc) but thats about it. IMO.

Just wondering - But are you "the" Gabe Watson? Just a big Watson fan? Or what?

Before last year's draft, I considered Gabe to represent a huge potential upside to our defensive future due to his size and strength inside should we draft him. Now that we have, I'm hoping he'll live up to that expectation, but either he didn't have that many opportunities to showcase his talents in his rookie season or simply just didn't dominate the way I had hoped he would.

Not to worry - new season/clean slate. The proverbial "they" say that rookies typically improve considerably more between their first and second seasons than they do in their rookie year (when their minds are zero'd-in on fitting in as a team member).

 

[BullheadCardFan]

Not to worry - new season/clean slate. The proverbial "they" say that rookies typically improve considerably more between their first and second seasons than they do in their rookie year (when their minds are zero'd-in on fitting in as a team member).

I am one of those "they" that believe that a player will have a better chance to excel in his 2nd year due to being able to work out with the team in the offseason, knowing what to expect for camp and TC, knowing the extra work that needs to be done to be in tiptop shape and not have to worry about contract issues ...

 

[BigWatson]

Just wondering - But are you "the" Gabe Watson? Just a big Watson fan? Or what?

Before last year's draft, I considered Gabe to represent a huge potential upside to our defensive future due to his size and strength inside should we draft him. Now that we have, I'm hoping he'll live up to that expectation, but either he didn't have that many opportunities to showcase his talents in his rookie season or simply just didn't dominate the way I had hoped he would.

Not to worry - new season/clean slate. The proverbial "they" say that rookies typically improve considerably more between their first and second seasons than they do in their rookie year (when their minds are zero'd-in on fitting in as a team member).

just a fan.

the only knock on him is that he wasnt in great shape when he came out of michigan. he wasnt able to play an entire game but when he was out there he did dominate. i mean just watch the bears game, he dominated both of their pro bowlers (ruben brown, olin kreutz). watson is impossible to move. he just needs to get in better shape. im pretty sure he will be able to do that with another offseason/training camp (especially under whiz) under his belt. plus i really dont want to see clancy in there at NT, he is way too small and not strong enough

 

[BigRedArk]

And he has now asked holdover defensive coordinator Clancy Pendergast, an innovative guy whose personal preference has been the 4-3 front, to incorporate some 3-4 elements into what the Cardinals do in 2007.
This is a far cry from transforming our team totally into a 3 - 4.

There are some benefits to running a hybrid defense incorporating both schemes (sometimes toggling back and forth during the same play):

- You can confuse offensive blockers because they don't know whether someone like Dockett is protecting an inside gap or whether he'll be floating outside to contain the outside run. Or whether Okeafor is coming or whether he'll drop back in coverage.

- Instead of limiting yourself to certain types of players who either fit a 3 -4 mold or a 4 -3, you can be flexible and versatile enough to tweak your defense according to the abilities of the guys you've already got.

Or you could wind up not playing either formation very well.

 

[BigRedArk]

isnt that like...improvement? i mean right now were getting torched by EVERY offense, on a weekly basis, no matter what the score is.

besides when was the last time you saw a QB throw for 300+ yds, 4tds against the ravens, patriots or steelers defense? as a matter of fact those three teams were the only ones a guy like peyton manning struggled against. the patriots destroyed manning over and over again. the steelers killed him in 05 when they won the superbowl and the ravens totally shut him down last season (about 150 passing yds, 0 tds)

We got torched but we were still in a lot of games we played last year and could have won a lot of them with merely some good game planning, motivated players, and execution on the field. Wouldn't it be better to build on what the defense did well last year and work on improving what they didn't?

Instead it is better to switch guys around and hope they can play out of position? Spend a year seeing which guys are suited for the new style of defense and get rid of the rest? Doesn't that seem like an attempt at putting a square peg in a round hole?

 

[BigWatson]

We got torched but we were still in a lot of games we played last year and could have won a lot of them with merely some good game planning, motivated players, and execution on the field. Wouldn't it be better to build on what the defense did well last year and work on improving what they didn't?

Instead it is better to switch guys around and hope they can play out of position? Spend a year seeing which guys are suited for the new style of defense and get rid of the rest? Doesn't that seem like an attempt at putting a square peg in a round hole?

not really. the jets were in the same position last year when mangini arrived and look what happened. they went from being the worst team to a playoff contender.

 

[BigRedArk]

not really. the jets were in the same position last year when mangini arrived and look what happened. they went from being the worst team to a playoff contender.

I didn't know the Jets went from a 4-3 to a 3-4 once Mangini arrived?

 

[BigWatson]

they did. there are also some similarities. bryan thomas was a bust for them at DE but when they moved him to OLB he became one of their best defensive players and they signed him to a huge contract last season. calvin pace should be able to do the same thing for us as a 3-4 OLB

 

[BigRedArk]

they did. there are also some similarities. bryan thomas was a bust for them at DE but when they moved him to OLB he became one of their best defensive players and they signed him to a huge contract last season. calvin pace should be able to do the same thing for us as a 3-4 OLB

Ok well I guess we are likely gonna find out. I have very strong reservations about the 3-4 defense. I think it bears repeating that the novelty of the 3-4 could very well be wearing off as more and more teams go to it. Offensive coordinators learn how to adjust to it and figure out the various blitz packages and then drool at the thought of exploiting D's that don't have the fast and furious LB's and at least 2 monster NT's for all of this to work.

I also have been around long enough to remember when the 3-4 was all the rage for about 5 or 6 years in the late 70's and early 80's. The Cards of course followed the trend only after all of the O coordinators had learned how to exploit it. Also they weren't able to acquire the LB's and a couple of mean-ass NT's to pull it off either. Then it of course fell out of favor and most everybody went back to the 4-3. Guess what happened then? I'll tell ya. The Cards were behind the curve on that shift as well and spent 2 or 3 years rebuilding their defensive roster back to the 4-3. I will spare you the details of all the pain that ensued from the shifting tides.

Seems to me that for this to work the Cards need to be a team ahead of the curve and not behind it. I fear we will be in the latter category this time around as well as we struggle to find LB's and NT's to make all of this work. Just MHO.

 

[kerouac9]

not really. the jets were in the same position last year when mangini arrived and look what happened. they went from being the worst team to a playoff contender.

They also had the easiest schedule in football, by far. Let's see them do it when they don't have to face off against the AFC South and the NFC North.

 

[ItsInTheCards]

I didn't know the Jets went from a 4-3 to a 3-4 once Mangini arrived?

they even went from the Tampa 2 to 3-4 which is even more impressive

 

[BigWatson]

They also had the easiest schedule in football, by far. Let's see them do it when they don't have to face off against the AFC South and the NFC North.

thats just not true. about 7 or 8 teams had an easier schedule last season. the jets have to play the patriots at least twice a year. last season they played them 3 (!) times. they beat the patriots in the regular season and they lost to the colts by only 3 points. the raiders beat us 22-9, the jets beat them 23-3. the packers beat us 31-14, the jets killed them 38-10. we lost to the vikings, the jets beat them. they gave up an average of 10 points per game in the 2nd half of the season, thats terrific. they gave up only 1 rushing TD in the final 8 games. whats with the hate? it would be awesome if we could have the same type of success next season. and who cares what kind of schedule they had? the bears had by far the easiest schedule in football last season. i dont think anyone bashed them because of that.

 

[kerouac9]

thats just not true. about 7 or 8 teams had an easier schedule last season. the jets have to play the patriots at least twice a year. last season they played them 3 (!) times. they beat the patriots in the regular season and they lost to the colts by only 3 points. the raiders beat us 22-9, the jets beat them 23-3. the packers beat us 31-14, the jets killed them 38-10. we lost to the vikings, the jets beat them. they gave up an average of 10 points per game in the 2nd half of the season, thats terrific. they gave up only 1 rushing TD in the final 8 games. whats with the hate? it would be awesome if we could have the same type of success next season. and who cares what kind of schedule they had? the bears had by far the easiest schedule in football last season. i dont think anyone bashed them because of that.

Are you serious? Here were the Jets' games last season:

Sep 10 @Tennessee Won 23-16 When Kerry Collins was starting, this was easily the worst team in the NFL
Sep 17 New England Lost 17-24 A good team at home, but the Pats never blow anyone out. Still a quality loss, if that is such a thing.
Sep 24 @Buffalo Won 28-20 Horrible team that couldn't stop anyone on defense.
Oct 1 Indianapolis Lost 28-31 Quality loss at home again, to a good opponent that wasn't blowing anyone out this season
Oct 8 @Jacksonville Lost 0-41 J-ville barely made the playoffs and blew the doors off of this squad.
Oct 15 Miami Won 20-17 Miami was a shambles this season on both sides of the ball, and the Jets squeaked by them at home.
Oct 22 Detroit Won 31-24 A home game against the lowly Lions and the mighty jets barely pull it out by a TD.
Oct 29 @Cleveland Lost 13-20 Um...
Week 9 BYE
Nov 12 @New England Won 17-14 This win looks better than it should because the Pats were coming off a heartbreaking loss to the Colts the previous week
Nov 19 Chicago Lost 0-10 Another home loss. Right now, the Jets were 5-4 with one win against a quality opponent
Nov 26 Houston Won 26-11 6-4, one quality win
Dec 3 @Green Bay Won 38-10 7-4, and they've only beat the Pats
Dec 10 Buffalo Lost 13-31 7-5, a bad loss to a bad football team
Dec 17 @Minnesota Won 26-13 8-5. This team is a virtual lock to make the playoffs at this point, having not beaten anybody
Dec 25 @Miami Won 13-10 Another team picking in the Top 15 of the NFL draft
Dec 31 Oakland Won 23-3 Apparenly this is a quality in in your book, even though it's at home and this team is picking first in two weeks.
Jan 7 @New England Lost 16-37 Wasn't able to show up and be competitive in the playoffs.

Yes, the Jets had to play New England twice during the regular season, but they didn't have to play anyone else. Take out the Bears from the NFC North and the Colts from the AFC South and the Jets' opposite divisions were 14 games under .500. Their at-large games were against teams picking 1st and 3rd overall in the NFL draft. They faced off against three of the worst five teams in the NFL and 6 of the bottom 10 (and one of those teams twice in Miami).

EDIT: The Bears did have an easy schedule, but they also beat three of the four playoff teams that they faced during the regular season, thrashing the Seahawks at home and beating the Jets and Giants in the Meadowlands in back-to-back weeks before losing their third East Coast road game in a row. That's a lot like the Jets.

EDIT: For as "good" as the Jets allegedly were, they were 20th in the NFL in total defense despite being 6th in the NFL in scoring defense. Maybe that's because they were playing bad teams that couldn't find the end zone. At the same time, the Jets finished 2006 25th in overall offense and right in the middle of the NFL in scoring offense.

How about this: The Tennessee Titans beat more quality opponents (@PHI, NYG, IND, JAC) than the New York Jets were. When all is said and done, the New York Jets are going to be the worst playoff team since the 1997-8 Arizona Cardinals. This season they play the AFC North and NFC East. Wanna bet that they finish no better than 8-8 with that schedule?

 

[Chris_Sanders]

The Cardinals are going to play 5 defensive linemen. Is this really not a hybrid of the "Joker" defensive set where the 5 DLs were down?