Whisenhunt needs a huge reality check

[RugbyMuffin]

Can't we save the nit picking for Wednesday or later.

Seemed like a good game plan to me since we won.

We should talk about Cardsloco's avatar instead.
:claphat:

 

[CardinalChris]

I can at least 5 plays in this game that old teams would have given up and faded away to a team like the Cowboys. I can care less if he is perfect when he gets a W against a very, very good team. Whatever he is doing, he has my support, imperfections and all.

I swear people complaining today is missing the fact that this is probably one of the top 3 wins this team has had since moving to Arizona. This feeling of beating the Cowboys who are dominant on paper makes me ticked we have a bye!!! It is like a new sports car. I want to take the darn thing out on the freeway and see what it can do. Next hurdle is winning on the road.

 

[CardinalChris]

No kidding....Whisenhunt is the reason we win this game. Whisenhunt instilled that "never give up" attitude into these players that Denny never did.

The only thing that pissed me off was the lack of tackling by our DBs. No way in hell Barber should have scored that TD in the 4th. Wrap him up!!! Grrrr...

Anyways, still hell of a win! GO CARDS!!!!

That was one of the "backbreaker" plays that past teams would have just given up and honestly believed they were doomed to let the win slip away.

 

[Russ Smith]

Yeah, he made some questionable decisions. And, you know what? I don't freaking care!!!! Every game can be second-guessed.

I think the main point to me was the first half it sure looked early like Warner was going to be a turnover machine again and I think because of that, Whiz got conservative. And I think it worked because Kurt in the 2nd half was a different player.

I think if Whiz turns Kurt loose early, we might be having another QB debate today.

 

[lobo]

MM, you need to take a chill pill. Our head coach is the main guy responsible for putting in the game plan that just defeated the Cowboys.
If it weren't for two defensive breakdowns this game would have been deemed a thorough thrashing.

there are some people who see the glass totally empty all the time....it really does not make sense to address obvious silliness...maybe those people will wake up one day and actually watch the game.

 

[SuperSpck]

Warner had all the earmarks of his Hyde personality in the first half.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I think the main point to me was the first half it sure looked early like Warner was going to be a turnover machine again and I think because of that, Whiz got conservative. And I think it worked because Kurt in the 2nd half was a different player.

I think if Whiz turns Kurt loose early, we might be having another QB debate today.

exactly. I think in the first half he was in between a rock and a hard place. The first series was really conservative playcalling, but in the next two series I believe Warner had two turnovers, looking like Hyde Warner. If you don't think that affected the playcallling for the rest of the half, not sure what to tell you. I think Whiz wanted to get out of the half alive without making any more mistakes and then hit the reboot button to see what we could do in the second half.

 

[Russ Smith]

exactly. I think in the first half he was in between a rock and a hard place. The first series was really conservative playcalling, but in the next two series I believe Warner had two turnovers, looking like Hyde Warner. If you don't think that affected the playcallling for the rest of the half, not sure what to tell you. I think Whiz wanted to get out of the half alive without making any more mistakes and then hit the reboot button to see what we could do in the second half.

That was the general consensus on the game thread too, uh oh Kurt looks like bad Kurt.

With any help from the refs it would have been 17-0 or 21-0 in the first half anyways until that late TD by Crayton, the strategy worked we just didn't get the breaks on the fumble calls.

Whiz has figured out sometimes he has to protect Kurt from Kurt.

There was a play late in the game where Kurt audibled to a run and on radio Pasch even said "wow Kurt changed the play to a run."

I kept saying you can't expect Warner to change who he is but I think that may be happening, he may get that protecting the ball is the key.

 

[gusmahler]

You guys are high on excitement right now but I'm not randomly criticizing. The end result doesn't justify every move made during the game and the Card's are going to suffer at some point when the keep it close/fall behind early approach is employed against a better team.

Better team? Aren't the Cowboys probably the 2nd best team in the NFC? (Well, 3rd now ).

I realize this is pissin' on the parade and I apologize for the poor timing but I was very frustrated by Whis and Haley today. I mean, how often can the Cardinals really rely on a truly dominating and stifling performance by the defense?

You do realize that the Cards have scored more points than any team in the NFC? And is only 1 point behind league leading San Diego?

The default approach of run, run 3rd and long is worrisome

Here are the Cards drives yesterday:
1st Half
* run, pass, pass (fumble)
* pass (get 1st down), run, run, pass, punt
* pass (int)
* pass, pass, pass, punt
* run, pass (get 1st), pass, run, pass, punt

2nd Half
* run, pass, pass (get 1st), run, pass, pass (get 1st), pass (get 1st), pass, pass, run (get 1st), pass (TD)
* pass (get 1st), pass (get 1st), pass, run (get 1st), run, pass, run (get 1st), pass (TD)
* pass, pass, pass (get 1st), run, pass (get 1st), run, pass, pass, FG
* run, run, pass (sack), punt

Out of 9 drives, only twice did Arizona run on both 1st and second down. And the second time, Arizona's main goal was running the clock down.

 

[moklerman]

The first series was really conservative playcalling, but in the next two series I believe Warner had two turnovers, looking like Hyde Warner. If you don't think that affected the playcallling for the rest of the half, not sure what to tell you.

I don't think it did since after the interception, it was pass, pass, pass. But in general, I think we're getting a little too literal here. To clarify, when I say "run, run, pass" I'm talking about the conventional sets compounded by predictable playcalling. Neither Leinart, Warner or the offense in general have been fluid, much less productive with that type of offense ever since Whis got here. Nothing's changed.

I can only assume that Whis feels it's a safer way to go but that is backward thinking from what I've seen. Warner in particular turns the ball over far less and has fewer Jekyll moments when in his comfort zone in the spread offense. Taking him out of that comfort zone in the biggest game of the year was a questionable decision.

Better team? Aren't the Cowboys probably the 2nd best team in the NFC? (Well, 3rd now

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).

Giants, Buccaneers & Saints are better and Bears, Packers & Redskins are equal to or better. They're certainly one of the good teams in the NFC and in general, the conference is going to be any given Sunday all year long. My point was, it wasn't a statement game in terms of beating an '84 49ers, '92 Cowboys, '98 Vikings, etc., it was more that the Cardinals overcame their own demons.

You do realize that the Cards have scored more points than any team in the NFC? And is only 1 point behind league leading San Diego?

Yes, as a matter of fact I do. The Cardinals also have the most TD's in the league but that circles us back around to the fact that most of that has all been with the 2nd half offense so why not use it to get a lead instead of letting the game stay close where something bad might happen?

Why purposely put the offense in it's most vulnerable, unproductive mode to start games?

 

[gusmahler]

Yes, as a matter of fact I do. The Cardinals also have the most TD's in the league but that circles us back around to the fact that most of that has all been with the 2nd half offense so why not use it to get a lead instead of letting the game stay close where something bad might happen?

Selective memory. We scored 17 first half points against the 49ers and 24 against Buffalo.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Listen Wisenhunt/Haley frustrated me too with his initial playcalling (I don't think we should EVER run two straight times unless we are grinding the clock) but Kurt didn't do himselves any favors by fumbling and throwing that dead duck INT. I would have scaled it back if I was Wiz too.

Wiz didn't have his best game. The onside kick didn't work, the freezing of the kicker didn't work, and the penalties on the offense were maddening.

But no one is ever going to be 100%. And its very easy to look back and say "oh well since this didn't work we shouldn't have done it". I love his style and most of all I love the "program" he has built.

You saw what happened to Denny teams when odds started stacking against us. Now you see what a Wisenhunt team does.

If he ever gets the road winning and penalties down we will be talking about Super Bowls instead of divisions.

 

[fatfin]

MM, you need to take a chill pill. Our head coach is the main guy responsible for putting in the game plan that just defeated the Cowboys.
If it weren't for two defensive breakdowns this game would have been deemed a thorough thrashing.

Agree entirely. The head coach and his staff are innovative and aggressive. Of course they sometimes make mistakes and its the fans' privilege to second guess. However it makes one chuckle to read some of the comments from some fans who really have only a vague idea of what the coaches are trying to do.
To the credit of the head coach and his staff they have done an amazing job in turning this franchise around in a short period of time.

 

[moklerman]

Selective memory. We scored 17 first half points against the 49ers and 24 against Buffalo.

Sorry, poorly worded. 2nd half vs. Dallas, not 2nd half all year. The Buffalo gameplan is what I'd like to see as the standard.

Listen Wisenhunt/Haley frustrated me too with his initial playcalling (I don't think we should EVER run two straight times unless we are grinding the clock) but Kurt didn't do himselves any favors by fumbling and throwing that dead duck INT. I would have scaled it back if I was Wiz too.

I guess I should reiterate that I'm not anti-Whis in any way. The Cardinals are blessed to have him.

I just disagree with his approach today on offense. Maybe I'm just disappointed because I thought he had moved on from the, what I consider, "bad" offense. The Washington game was mostly conservative as was the first half vs. the Jets. They opened things up in that 2nd half and all game against Buffalo and were rolling. To scale it all back vs. the Cowboys was just too confounding for me. Especially considering how the whole offense looked until they went back to the spread in the 2nd half.

 

[moklerman]

Agree entirely. The head coach and his staff are innovative and aggressive. Of course they sometimes make mistakes and its the fans' privilege to second guess. However it makes one chuckle to read some of the comments from some fans who really have only a vague idea of what the coaches are trying to do.
To the credit of the head coach and his staff they have done an amazing job in turning this franchise around in a short period of time.

I disagree. I'm not being hyper-critical of every poor decision or undesired outcome by Whis and his staff. Your argument seems to be that Whis' decision making is unquestionably right.

In particular, do you feel that the offense in the first half vs. Dallas was more effective than it was vs. Buffalo?

When you think about it, Whis agrees with my sentiment since he made the switch at halftime.

 

[SoCal Cardfan]

Uggh, If the zebras aren't against us the whole game, this could have easily been a Cards blowout win.

Some people just can't be pleased.

 

[moklerman]

Some people just can't be pleased.

C'mon, now. I'm just questioning the decision to once again go with an offensive approach that has continually put the team in unappealing situations. There's no call for Whis' head on a platter or demands that he be fired. It isn't even only about this particular game. I'm a very big fan of Whis and what he's done for the Cardinals and have said so many times.

 

[gusmahler]

Sorry, poorly worded. 2nd half vs. Dallas, not 2nd half all year. The Buffalo gameplan is what I'd like to see as the standard.

Obviously, we were more successful in the Buffalo game. But we had 5 run plays and 11 pass plays in the first half against Dallas. It wasn't really that conservative.

 

[D-Dogg]

Here are the Cards drives yesterday:
1st Half
* run, pass, pass (fumble)
* pass (get 1st down), run, run, pass, punt
* pass (int)
* pass, pass, pass, punt
* run, pass (get 1st), pass, run, pass, punt

2nd Half
* run, pass, pass (get 1st), run, pass, pass (get 1st), pass (get 1st), pass, pass, run (get 1st), pass (TD)
* pass (get 1st), pass (get 1st), pass, run (get 1st), run, pass, run (get 1st), pass (TD)
* pass, pass, pass (get 1st), run, pass (get 1st), run, pass, pass, FG
* run, run, pass (sack), punt

Out of 9 drives, only twice did Arizona run on both 1st and second down. And the second time, Arizona's main goal was running the clock down.

I can't believe he's still arguing with you after that.

Game. set. match. Gusmahler wins.

 

[moklerman]

I can't believe he's still arguing with you after that.

Was the offense the same in the 2nd half as it was in the 1st half? Any change in sets, personnel, etc.?

Game. set. match. Gusmahler wins.

What does one win? If I'd known there were prizes I might just start passing out the Kool-Aid.

I'll bet my A$FN bucks against anyone that wants to take the conventional, Edge featured approach taken by the Cards in the first half vs. the spread, passing based offense that was switched to in the 2nd half. We can figure out what the points and turnovers are worth if anyone wants to take the bet.

 

[NeverSayDieFan]

Hey, M.M. Some GOOD points...

When you have an EXPLOSIVE offense like ours the 1st thought is FULL-THROTTLE from the get go!! STRIKE HARD--STRIKE FAST!! Now, I have NO coaching experience but I get the feeling that the 1st quarter is a chess-match. BOTH sides are looking at match-ups, "testing" plays, setting up others... Part of me agrees with the "Bombs away" approach BUT the bottom-line is WINNING. We're (4-2). 1st Place! My BIGGER concern is with a secondary that has now given up (12) TD's thru the air. Course, (6) were in (1) game. ...And I'm NOT taking ANYTHING away from our over-all D performance. They played HUGE!! BUT if I'm game-planning to beat us, I'm thinking PASS!! GO CARDS!!

 

[PoolBoy]

wow, molkerman isn't happy with the way something happened? thats crazy

 

[moklerman]

Very valid thoughts NSDF. I pretty much have to consider the decision by Whis to be just what you described if I'm to have any peace of mind on the subject. I still don't agree with it because I feel that the pass first mentality used in the Buffalo game wasn't a "bomb's away" mindset, but an alternative extension to a running game. Which I think is what the Cardinals should have as their fulltime offense.

The pro set just seems to bring to the surface too many weaknesses of the offense. Warner doesn't look comfortable, the line doesn't block as well, more sacks, more penalties...just everything.

I'm sure everyone's sick of my point of view on the subject though so I'll drop it. It seems that it's being taken as a condemnation of the big win and I don't want to further spoil everyone's enjoyment by exploring or defending my thoughts on the matter.

 

[D-Dogg]

Was the offense the same in the 2nd half as it was in the 1st half? Any change in sets, personnel, etc.?

Oh, I get it. You are using a malleable argument. Since he blew your "all this run, run, pass all the time...angry mad angry" argument out of the water, you shifted gears to something else.

Ok, carry on.

 

[moklerman]

Oh, I get it. You are using a malleable argument. Since he blew your "all this run, run, pass all the time...angry mad angry" argument out of the water, you shifted gears to something else.

No, I clarified that earlier. My use of "run, run, pass" or "run, run, third & long" has always been in reference to the conventional set/predictable playcalling of the base offense that has never functioned well under Whis. It was never intended to be a recounting of the actual plays or sequence in which they were called.

On top of the fact that he proved my point more than disprove it.

Here are the Cards drives yesterday: (red text indicates missing/incorrect info from previous post)
1st Half
* penalty, run, run, pass(third and long) (this drive was left off for some reason)
* run, pass, pass (fumble)
* pass (get 1st down), run, run, pass(third and long), punt
* pass (int)
* run(holding penalty - 1st & 20) pass, pass, pass, punt
* run, pass (get 1st), pass, run, pass, punt

I see 4 of 6 drives that started with a run and another that was run, run, 3rd & long after the drive started with a pass for first down.