Whiz blames players and defense again not Miller and self.

[daves]

For as long as i can remember, people have been blaming a tired defense on passing too much and running too little.

I'm curious whether anyone has any evidence that running plays give the defense more rest than passing plays. Sure, the game clock stops after incomplete passes, but do passing plays really take any less real time than running plays?

What really gives the defense a chance to rest are stopping the other team's offense, and long, sustained drive by the team's own offense. If the other team's defense is playing to stop the run, it may very well be the case that more passing gives a better chance of sustaining a drive. In fact, based on Kolb's quote, when he got to the line of scrimmage he felt that changing some of the running plays that were called to passes would be successful.

You can second-guess the play-calling based on what you think would've been more successful, but not based on what would've given the defense more rest. If you think the team should deliberately gain fewer yards per play in order to stretch out the length of a drive, then you probably think the 73-yard TD pass to Fitzgerald was a mistake.

(Now if the team is trying to run out the game clock, that's a whole other argument.)

...dave

 

[Catfish]

For as long as i can remember, people have been blaming a tired defense on passing too much and running too little.

I'm curious whether anyone has any evidence that running plays give the defense more rest than passing plays. Sure, the game clock stops after incomplete passes, but do passing plays really take any less real time than running plays?

What really gives the defense a chance to rest are stopping the other team's offense, and long, sustained drive by the team's own offense. If the other team's defense is playing to stop the run, it may very well be the case that more passing gives a better chance of sustaining a drive. In fact, based on Kolb's quote, when he got to the line of scrimmage he felt that changing some of the running plays that were called to passes would be successful.

You can second-guess the play-calling based on what you think would've been more successful, but not based on what would've given the defense more rest. If you think the team should deliberately gain fewer yards per play in order to stretch out the length of a drive, then you probably think the 73-yard TD pass to Fitzgerald was a mistake.

(Now if the team is trying to run out the game clock, that's a whole other argument.)

...dave

The point is that it is very hard to have a long sustained drive without running the ball. Passing drives, when successful, are generally much shorter in duration than a combination of passes and runs. The fact that the clock keeps running, and runs for a longer period of time, is what lets the defense stay off the field for a longer time. A second benefit of having an equitable run game is that it forces the defense to defend the run and the pass both. Teams can's just load up the box and bring, it down after down, like they can when we just pass. Having them play more honest is likely to keep our QB from being harassed and hurried constantly, and might even keep him healthier than simply passing does.

 

[Duckjake]

Since NFL games last three hours and the clock is 1 hour you could make the correlation that a 5 minute drive gives the Defense 15 minutes of rest.

Now on quick strike score they may get more than the 3 to 1 rest because the Network will want to show more replays and will have the fellow with the red vest stand on the field longer.

Sounds like another subject for one of my sleepless nights projects.

I still like the debate that ensues when you ask why the offense doesn't get tired from being on the field too long and why is it conventional wisdom that RBs get stronger the more they carry the ball? Why don't they wear down the more they're hit.

I personally don't think defenses get tired from being on the field too long when their offense sucks. Instead they get demoralized and the will that enables them to crash into people full speed starts to wane.

Fans are macho. Defense is the macho side of the game. Fans can't handle their Macho Defense being weak so they blame it on the offense.

 

[JeffGollin]

...I still like the debate that ensues when you ask why the offense doesn't get tired from being on the field too long and why is it conventional wisdom that RBs get stronger the more they carry the ball? Why don't they wear down the more they're hit...

I think the CW is that it's more tiring to go backward against run blockers than it is teeing off on a defender. Ditto RB's who are mostly going toward or parallel to the LOS.

D Urban made in interesting point in Underground - that if defenses want to get off the field, they should do a better job of forcing the opposing offense into more 3 & outs.

 

[Duckjake]

I think the CW is that it's more tiring to go backward against run blockers than it is teeing off on a defender. Ditto RB's who are mostly going toward or parallel to the LOS.

D Urban made in interesting point in Underground - that if defenses want to get off the field, they should do a better job of forcing the opposing offense into more 3 & outs.

I've been saying that for years. But most people just want to blame the offense. I have seen fans say their QB was the reason they lost the game because he threw an INT with 1:35 left with the score 45-43 and he'd thrown for 385 yards and 4 TDs prior.

Sort of like the people blaming Stuckey for the loss because of his fumble when it was the Defense that gave up 3 scores in the 4th quarter to lose the lead.

 

[Chopper0080]

I've been saying that for years. But most people just want to blame the offense. I have seen fans say their QB was the reason they lost the game because he threw an INT with 1:35 left with the score 45-43 and he'd thrown for 385 yards and 4 TDs prior.

Sort of like the people blaming Stuckey for the loss because of his fumble when it was the Defense that gave up 3 scores in the 4th quarter to lose the lead.

Pretty true. I also remember Wells having the majority of his success when the Cards used a spread package and the Redskins countered w/ a coverage look (spread defensive personnel). Unfortunately for the Cards, on their drive to try and run out the clock, the Redskins stacked blitzers in the gaps which eliminated the space for those runs Wells was so succesfull on. This gave us man coverage on the outside which is normaly a win for an offense. If anything, be upset that Kolb didn't try to get Fitz the ball like he did the previous week.

 

[THESMEL]

lost it

you are all 5150 or Whiz has infiltrated your weak minds with his superpowerful dunce formulas!

Lets take the top passing offense SB Saintsof 09, THEY RAN MORE THAN THEY passed. and destroyed our entire team from then till now!

Or the GB Packers who WE ran Beanie Wells 14 times for 90+ yards and a 3 score lead, before we went to passing every freakin down in the 09 playoffs! exciting overtime win after rushing Mike Adams 8 times! Did he defend a single pass?

We started Edge in seattle and 3 playoff games and the SB, He was the engine behind each of them wins WITH THE RUN GAME! Well Kurt had another record SB and we lost the game because we abandoned the run again. IMO

You do relize that Kurt was was a Jones 2 yard away tackle from going 0-3 in SB's. With all the SB passing records!

We have our team with tape against the last 3 Super Bowl champion, It is the Cardinals Stupidity in the run Game that has crippled the Cardinals. We had the talent to win solid, we chose to be stupid about it!

My God THT average 9 carries a game as our starter! any 2 years worth of carries is below a featured back season total!

We don't suck at the run game, We have no Will at the run game. And Washington used that to their advantage to lead the NFCE.

OUR COACHING SUCKS worse than our defense by miles!

I've been saying that for years. But most people just want to blame the offense. I have seen fans say their QB was the reason they lost the game because he threw an INT with 1:35 left with the score 45-43 and he'd thrown for 385 yards and 4 TDs prior.

Sort of like the people blaming Stuckey for the loss because of his fumble when it was the Defense that gave up 3 scores in the 4th quarter to lose the lead.

 

[Duckjake]

Pretty true. I also remember Wells having the majority of his success when the Cards used a spread package and the Redskins countered w/ a coverage look (spread defensive personnel). Unfortunately for the Cards, on their drive to try and run out the clock, the Redskins stacked blitzers in the gaps which eliminated the space for those runs Wells was so succesfull on. This gave us man coverage on the outside which is normaly a win for an offense. If anything, be upset that Kolb didn't try to get Fitz the ball like he did the previous week.

I think you are right on the money and that is what Warner and Fitz did during the '08 playoffs to make teams pay for stacking the gaps.

I'm thinking the Cards start utilizing Heap/King/Housler more to offset that stuff as well. 2nd and 7. Five yard pass to Heap who runs over 2 guys to get the first down. Dang that would be fun to watch.

 

[Bert]

you are all 5150

Keep this post in mind Smel, cuz I'm going to throw it in your face next time you cry and play the victim on this board and say that you never insult anyone.

You have actually gone off on rants lecturing people about using Mental illness as an insult, yet here you are telling people they are 5150 because you disagree with them. You even said it was "a sensitive issue for you" because you yourself take meds.


And it's funny that you keep ignoring the fact that KOLB said he checked out of running plays in the first half, because it totally contradicts your anti-Whiz agenda. It stinks when those pesky facts get in the way of your irrational wordplay right?


Will your hypocrisy ever top out or will you just keep out-doing yourself?

I look forward to your long-winded, irrational response that doesn't address any of the points I just made.

MAMAJAMA SMUSHDOWN!

 

[gmabel830]

Does THESMEL actually go to the games? It must be hilarious for the people around him to just sit back, watch and think "who the heck is this dude in the Cards jersey losing his mind every time we go back for a passing play and screaming that Whiz is the anti-christ?!"

If he doesn't go to the games, I might have to talk my fiance out of skipping a game so I can experience that for myself!!

 

[Vermont Maverick]

THESMEL blames Whiz and Cardinals again, for personal unhappiness, not shrink and self.

Thesmel is a tool.
You stupid tool. It is your fault THESMEL.

 

[THESMEL]

I'm a hoot

I go to some games, but am kind of hard to watch - watch Cardinal football, My ex and my mother say it is more fun watching me watch the Cards!

I was on my best behavior vibrating - privately fuming on the couch during the Saints playoff game- when my 5 year old God Son asked me why the Cardinals were not running Beanie Wells like last week against GB? Then He asked how they expect keep Kurt Warner healthy ( right before He went down in withering agony for the rest of his career)

I apoligise for the over the top 5150 criminal insane smear , Bert, I thought the wizards magic potient thingy was kind of cute though?
Hey if you all think Kolb had a great game, and love to see him audible down to 3 runs in the first half, and think It is a fantastic adjustment to call 11 runs in the 2nd half!

Well I think Kolb and Horton need to watch the last few years of Cards games; Haleys-Whisenunts's and now Millers presser stating we could have run more......
You think after 65 -70 games in a row, they could try more than 20 carries more than once like a real team! but no, only if we have a 3 score lead in the 4th 1/4 will we run over 20 times! Cause the 2 score lead evaporated, passing like our hair was on fire in the 4th 1/4 of this Washington Game.

I may be a tool and the problem, but there is no way in heaven Me or my 5 year old God Son would end up with less offensive plays 70 time in a row, state the problem and not run the ball more 70 games in a row.
Even I aint that stubborn!

Does THESMEL actually go to the games? It must be hilarious for the people around him to just sit back, watch and think "who the heck is this dude in the Cards jersey losing his mind every time we go back for a passing play and screaming that Whiz is the anti-christ?!"

If he doesn't go to the games, I might have to talk my fiance out of skipping a game so I can experience that for myself!!

 

[Jetstream Green]

Whis is very good at calling an offense, it is making the right choices on fielding a defense that he has struggled with. His playcalling is not bad, it is not average...it is good. As far as blaming people, what the hell do you think this is, highschool football? He stating the facts which I can appreciate and if some adult professional cannot take the fact that they are not doing their job, then go cry in a corner and leave the money they gave you behind. I have no fault in Whis' handling of comments on players or coaches around him.

 

[JeffGollin]

?...Sort of like the people blaming Stuckey for the loss because of his fumble when it was the Defense that gave up 3 scores in the 4th quarter to lose the lead.

Actually, both the defense and Stuckey should be held accountable (It is after all, a team sport).

Stuckey was presumably brought in to bring veteran poise and technical route-running expertise to a relatively "young" position. Instead, he let us down.

But if the defense held it's ground, it wouldn't have come down to Stuckey having to make that play. (Actually, it would probably rested on Beanie's shoulders to drain time off the clock. Maybe he would have heh, heh, fumbled). Woulda/Coulda.

 

[WisconsinCard]

Our starting RB has averaged 9 carries a game for 3 years. So it is an improvement. Somebody needs to shake lose the iron in Whiz's shorts.

My God why can't he see That the Saints ran more than 50% of the time with less talented oline and RB's, as they squashed us like a bug on the way to win the SB! after Beanie went like 14 for 90 at GB the week earlier?

The Saints had the top pass game in the NFL while rushing more than 50% of the time! that is just one example. Mcnabb has what 5 or 6 NFC championship games, while undersized Westbrook made defenses respect the run with a balanced attack.

,

This must be some kind of new fangled math because for the 2009 season the saints ran the ball 378 times while passing 544 times. Not even close to this 50 percent thing.

Oh ya and during the 2009 season our Cards ran the ball 392 times and passed 594 times. Let keep it real OK?

 

[WisconsinCard]

And for the playoffs in 2009 we ran the ball 38 times and passed the ball 53 times not as unbalanced as you remember.

 

[WarnerHOF]

This must be some kind of new fangled math because for the 2009 season the saints ran the ball 378 times while passing 544 times. Not even close to this 50 percent thing.

Oh ya and during the 2009 season our Cards ran the ball 392 times and passed 594 times. Let keep it real OK?

He also put Eagles and balanced attack in the same sentence.

 

[AzStevenCal]

He also put Eagles and balanced attack in the same sentence.

Not just once either. He's mentioned Andy Reid, McNabb and the Eagles several times during his anti-Whiz campaign and offers them up as evidence for what a real coach/team can do with a balanced attack. The same Andy Reid that's been roasted for years for NOT running the ball. The same Andy Reid who has notoriously used the short pass in lieu of the run game.

Steve

 

[gmabel830]

I go to some games, but am kind of hard to watch - watch Cardinal football, My ex and my mother say it is more fun watching me watch the Cards!

I was on my best behavior vibrating - privately fuming on the couch during the Saints playoff game- when my 5 year old God Son asked me why the Cardinals were not running Beanie Wells like last week against GB? Then He asked how they expect keep Kurt Warner healthy ( right before He went down in withering agony for the rest of his career)

I apoligise for the over the top 5150 criminal insane smear , Bert, I thought the wizards magic potient thingy was kind of cute though?
Hey if you all think Kolb had a great game, and love to see him audible down to 3 runs in the first half, and think It is a fantastic adjustment to call 11 runs in the 2nd half!

Well I think Kolb and Horton need to watch the last few years of Cards games; Haleys-Whisenunts's and now Millers presser stating we could have run more......
You think after 65 -70 games in a row, they could try more than 20 carries more than once like a real team! but no, only if we have a 3 score lead in the 4th 1/4 will we run over 20 times! Cause the 2 score lead evaporated, passing like our hair was on fire in the 4th 1/4 of this Washington Game.

I may be a tool and the problem, but there is no way in heaven Me or my 5 year old God Son would end up with less offensive plays 70 time in a row, state the problem and not run the ball more 70 games in a row.
Even I aint that stubborn!

Oh man, if my fiance ever can't make a game -- you are so in!!

 

[Duckjake]

Not just once either. He's mentioned Andy Reid, McNabb and the Eagles several times during his anti-Whiz campaign and offers them up as evidence for what a real coach/team can do with a balanced attack. The same Andy Reid that's been roasted for years for NOT running the ball. The same Andy Reid who has notoriously used the short pass in lieu of the run game.

Steve

Its funny how fans have this misconception of the running game. You continually hear people talk about giving a RB the ball 25-30 times a game yet only a handful of backs have over 400 carries the last 10 years.

I would think that almost every team now is passing more than running.

 

[gmabel830]

Its funny how fans have this misconception of the running game. You continually hear people talk about giving a RB the ball 25-30 times a game yet only a handful of backs have over 400 carries the last 10 years.

I would think that almost every team now is passing more than running.

http://www.fieldgulls.com/2011/9/16/2427102/seahawks-pete-carroll-marshawn-lynch-leon-washington

According to this article, all but 4 teams threw more than they ran last year.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Its funny how fans have this misconception of the running game. You continually hear people talk about giving a RB the ball 25-30 times a game yet only a handful of backs have over 400 carries the last 10 years.

I would think that almost every team now is passing more than running.

Teams are running less and they are also much more likely to spread those carries out instead of just pounding the same guy over and over.

I can't get it out of my head what we almost had on offense this year. Wouldn't it have been fun to watch an offense that had effective talent at the wide receiver, tight end, fullback and running back positions to go along with a solid QB? Our defense would have still been suspect but we could have scored the 30 plus points per game that our defense requires.

Steve

 

[Duckjake]

http://www.fieldgulls.com/2011/9/16/2427102/seahawks-pete-carroll-marshawn-lynch-leon-washington

According to this article, all but 4 teams threw more than they ran last year.

Of course the Cards are dead last in run %. They ran the ball even less in 2008, 34%. Went to the Super Bowl.

 

[gmabel830]

Of course the Cards are dead last in run %. They ran the ball even less in 2008, 34%. Went to the Super Bowl.

Of course.. I'm definitely in the "we need to run the ball more and have more of a balanced offense camp", but it is not realistic to think we will run the ball as much or more than we throw. There were elite teams all throughout the spectrum last year. Many of the elite teams were the ones closest to a 50/50 split, but it definitely isn't a requirement to be a good/great team. Getting out of dead last would be nice though!

 

[Duckjake]

Teams are running less and they are also much more likely to spread those carries out instead of just pounding the same guy over and over.

I can't get it out of my head what we almost had on offense this year. Wouldn't it have been fun to watch an offense that had effective talent at the wide receiver, tight end, fullback and running back positions to go along with a solid QB? Our defense would have still been suspect but we could have scored the 30 plus points per game that our defense requires.

Steve

True. But its not the 50/50 or so that we've seen from the Cardinals lately. Its more along the lines of the main back getting 300 or so and everyone else taking up the rest. For instance Ray Rice of Baltimore had 307 carries while Mcgahee and McLain combined for around 180.

More like what we used to see with Edge when Denny Green was Head Coach.