Whiz is Toast

[cardncubfan]

Good question...my guess is "never"?

Look at the moves ownership had this off season. It's not like they didn't see the CBA going down the tubes, and the potential of no football next season due to a lockout. They made a savvy business decision, and strengthened their cash position by cutting payroll by 20% in an uncapped year.

As a consequence, our team sank.

Bingo!

 

[Mulli]

Hey Mitch, do you still guarantee Whiz getting fired next season?

 

[Cardiac]

Hey Mitch, do you still guarantee Whiz getting fired next season?

Touble maker.

 

[Mulli]

Touble maker.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

[Mulli]

Touble maker.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

[Cardiac]

Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

[Mitch]

Hey Mitch, do you still guarantee Whiz getting fired next season?

There have been two very positive steps in the right direction:

1. Hiring a new DC.

2. Negotiating a new contract with Fitz.

That's a good start, but...

A) We have to see what happens in both scenarios. My concern is the possibility of hiring a new DC with no experience---in which case it is a total crap shoot. And---while ESPN is speculating that Fitz could be looking at $40M in guaranteed money...my guess is that the Cardinals' offer won't be anything near that figure, and that the spirit of these negotiations is to see if Fitz is willing to re-sign at a reasonable price so that there is money to spend in other areas like QB, T and LB.

B) The insistance that there doesn't need to be any changes on the offensive staff is and will be Whiz's undoing. This offensive staff is about the most vanilla collection of sycophants one could ever imagine---even Russ Grimm bites his towel on this one---as there is no clear direction as to what this offense is and how it should be formed---nor is there any clear indication that the position coaches are doing even a half-way respectable job. They all got carried by Kurt Warner and it's obvious. The breakdowns in fundamentals are conspicuous and alarming.

C) The best thing Whiz can do is sign a veteran QB with a track record of success like a Donovan McNabb and give him the autonomy to run the offense the way Warner was given. The communication therefore will take place betweeen the players on the field, on the sidelines and on the practice fields. Whiz is not an effective play caller and this year without Warner it was obvious---nor has he or his coaches the ability to develop QBs in their system.

When you look back at the well-documented acrimony Whiz had with Ben Roethlisberger...check these stats out:

Last year with Whiz as OC: 59.7% completions and an 18/23 TD/INT ratio.

First year w/o Whiz: 65.3%, 32/11.

That disparity is stunning---and says a great deal about what coaches do to build efficiency and confidence.

So, to answer your question, I am still convinced the Cardinals under Whiz will continue to play hard only when there's some kind of major incentive, like getting the bye week off or playing hard on Christmas night...but will continue to play like chumps and Pillsbury doughboys in games they don't want to bring it...thus losing in a ridiculously and embarrassingly lopsided fashion more often than what anyone can possibly condone.

So yes...the prediction remains.

When a coach loses the respect of his players it is almost impossible to get it back---unless he is a type A with charisma. Whiz is neither.

You may question the respect issue...but hey...here's just a start of the litany of reasons:

1) The blowout losses where the effort is emabarrassing = no respectt for the coaches.

2) The soft training camps.

3) The double standards---stating that the best players play and then playing inferior players just because Whiz has developed "an affection" for them.

4) Losing all credibility with the team by appointing Matt Leinart as starter in January. Think he should have talked with the players about that one?

5) The inane comment such as "close losses are worse to take" because with embarrassing blowouts "you can get mad and get over it quickly."

That comment sums up Softenhunt perfectly.

 

[earthsci]

Way to leave Ben Roethlisberger's first two years out of the equation Mitch. Lying through stats. Hey isn't the year that he did so bad because of Whiz the year that he had the serious motorcycle crash? Stupid Whiz.

 

[TJ]

There have been two very positive steps in the right direction:

1. Hiring a new DC.

2. Negotiating a new contract with Fitz.

Yes. These are moves in the right direction. Also, these are moves that have started relatively early; less than a week after the final game.

A) We have to see what happens in both scenarios. My concern is the possibility of hiring a new DC with no experience---in which case it is a total crap shoot. And---while ESPN is speculating that Fitz could be looking at $40M in guaranteed money...my guess is that the Cardinals' offer won't be anything near that figure, and that the spirit of these negotiations is to see if Fitz is willing to re-sign at a reasonable price so that there is money to spend in other areas like QB, T and LB.

The Cards have proven in the past that they'll take care of Fitzgerald and the general consensus is he is the face of the franchise. It would be irresponsible to not start the negotiation process now and allow him to hit the free market. I can see a deal that includes $42 mil guaranteed 6-7 years give or take.

The other positions you mentioned do need to be addressed as well, but I think they will.

B) The insistance that there doesn't need to be any changes on the offensive staff is and will be Whiz's undoing. This offensive staff is about the most vanilla collection of sycophants one could ever imagine---even Russ Grimm bites his towel on this one---as there is no clear direction as to what this offense is and how it should be formed---nor is there any clear indication that the position coaches are doing even a half-way respectable job. They all got carried by Kurt Warner and it's obvious. The breakdowns in fundamentals are conspicuous and alarming.

Most offenses are carried by a prolific QB. Look at the Colts. Look at the Pats. Ask yourself, "what if those two QBs were taken off their respective squads with no replacement in the wings?" Probably below .500.

C) The best thing Whiz can do is sign a veteran QB with a track record of success like a Donovan McNabb and give him the autonomy to run the offense the way Warner was given. The communication therefore will take place betweeen the players on the field, on the sidelines and on the practice fields. Whiz is not an effective play caller and this year without Warner it was obvious---nor has he or his coaches the ability to develop QBs in their system.

You are giving Whiz zero credit (not surprising). We need a vet, but to say someone like McNabb is more apt to make play calls than Whiz is just ridiculous. Can you give me figures as to how many calls Warner made on his own?

It's difficult to pin the blame on play calling when the execution simply wasnt even there. There isnt a coach alive that can run an offense through Anderson or two low-end rookies. Whiz learned this the hard way.

When you look back at the well-documented acrimony Whiz had with Ben Roethlisberger...check these stats out:

Last year with Whiz as OC: 59.7% completions and an 18/23 TD/INT ratio.

First year w/o Whiz: 65.3%, 32/11.

That disparity is stunning---and says a great deal about what coaches do to build efficiency and confidence.

It does? What about the fact that they were under a new regime in Tomlin. Think that would have some sort of impact? Most likely.

The old regime was about pounding the rock. After Whiz left, they went to a primarily passing offense, which many have said was "un-Steeler like."

So, to answer your question, I am still convinced the Cardinals under Whiz will continue to play hard only when there's some kind of major incentive, like getting the bye week off or playing hard on Christmas night...but will continue to play like chumps and Pillsbury doughboys in games they don't want to bring it...thus losing in a ridiculously and embarrassingly lopsided fashion more often than what anyone can possibly condone.

Bye weeks? Christmas? Man your evaluation is too meticulous.

I have to remind you again. This is one losing season out of four under the Whiz regime. If you want to continue to ridicule the only coach who has taken this team with a history of ineptitude to the Superbowl, two division titles, and respectability, go for it, but youd be wrong

So yes...the prediction remains.

My prediction: Whiz gets two more seasons to right the ship. This is based on his track record and contract.
When a coach loses the respect of his players it is almost impossible to get it back---unless he is a type A with charisma. Whiz is neither.

You may question the respect issue...but hey...here's just a start of the litany of reasons:

1) The blowout losses where the effort is emabarrassing = no respectt for the coaches.

Or just plain being out matched...

2) The soft training camps.

You do know that the team trains at 7200' elevation, higher than any team in the NFL. This alone helps with conditioning, specifically oxygen consumption, which is very useful for finishing the game with the same energy with which the players started. As a matter of fact, many players unfamiliar with the altitude have gotten sick, barfed after practice and felt light headed the rest of the day.

That along with having the best trainer in the NFL in John Lott tells me the team is prepared physically as well as mentally. It is a talent issue.

Most coaches do not run a rigorous TC. The only one I can recall was Mike Singletary and look where he is now.....

3) The double standards---stating that the best players play and then playing inferior players just because Whiz has developed "an affection" for them.

This makes no sense. I saw nothing of the sort, except for an admission that offseason decisions have to be made with his head and not his heart.

4) Losing all credibility with the team by appointing Matt Leinart as starter in January. Think he should have talked with the players about that one?

It was reported that the team turned on Leinart. So how can he lose credibility at the time of the decision?

5) The inane comment such as "close losses are worse to take" because with embarrassing blowouts "you can get mad and get over it quickly."

Actually, Whiz is correct on this subject. Tell me this: which loss hurt for you the most; the one against Minny when we gave up that big lead only to lose in overtime or the one against SD where the game was out of reach at the end? Ill take the former as I was convinced at the end that we would win and my heart was ripped out. At SD, I new the game was over before halftime so I had little or no emotional response.

That comment sums up Softenhunt perfectly.

As I have stated, haters are going to hate no matter what. The fact remains: Whiz has a body of work that is incomparable to any coach to ever stand on the sidelines for the AZ/PHX Cardinals.

Moreover, every coach has a down season. Every single one (read my first post of this thread). And with every one, you can take a minute to write dissertations like this about the coach. But we need to take a wait-and-see approach before we come to any conclusions. It may take one offseason. It may take two. But given the fact that he previously took a 5-11 team and in two years took it to the Superbowl is a tall-tale sign that he is more than capable of doing it once more.

 

[Mitch]

Yes. These are moves in the right direction. Also, these are moves that have started relatively early; less than a week after the final game.


The Cards have proven in the past that they'll take care of Fitzgerald and the general consensus is he is the face of the franchise. It would be irresponsible to not start the negotiation process now and allow him to hit the free market. I can see a deal that includes $42 mil guaranteed 6-7 years give or take.

The other positions you mentioned do need to be addressed as well, but I think they will.

Most offenses are carried by a prolific QB. Look at the Colts. Look at the Pats. Ask yourself, "what if those two QBs were taken off their respective squads with no replacement in the wings?" Probably below .500.


You are giving Whiz zero credit (not surprising). We need a vet, but to say someone like McNabb is more apt to make play calls than Whiz is just ridiculous. Can you give me figures as to how many calls Warner made on his own?

It's difficult to pin the blame on play calling when the execution simply wasnt even there. There isnt a coach alive that can run an offense through Anderson or two low-end rookies. Whiz learned this the hard way.

When you look back at the well-documented acrimony Whiz had with Ben Roethlisberger...check these stats out:
It does? What about the fact that they were under a new regime in Tomlin. Think that would have some sort of impact? Most likely.

The old regime was about pounding the rock. After Whiz left, they went to a primarily passing offense, which many have said was "un-Steeler like."


Bye weeks? Christmas? Man your evaluation is too meticulous.

I have to remind you again. This is one losing season out of four under the Whiz regime. If you want to continue to ridicule the only coach who has taken this team with a history of ineptitude to the Superbowl, two division titles, and respectability, go for it, but youd be wrong


My prediction: Whiz gets two more seasons to right the ship. This is based on his track record and contract.
When a coach loses the respect of his players it is almost impossible to get it back---unless he is a type A with charisma. Whiz is neither.

Or just plain being out matched...
You do know that the team trains at 7200' elevation, higher than any team in the NFL. This alone helps with conditioning, specifically oxygen consumption, which is very useful for finishing the game with the same energy with which the players started. As a matter of fact, many players unfamiliar with the altitude have gotten sick, barfed after practice and felt light headed the rest of the day.

That along with having the best trainer in the NFL in John Lott tells me the team is prepared physically as well as mentally. It is a talent issue.

Most coaches do not run a rigorous TC. The only one I can recall was Mike Singletary and look where he is now.....

This makes no sense. I saw nothing of the sort, except for an admission that offseason decisions have to be made with his head and not his heart.


It was reported that the team turned on Leinart. So how can he lose credibility at the time of the decision?

Actually, Whiz is correct on this subject. Tell me this: which loss hurt for you the most; the one against Minny when we gave up that big lead only to lose in overtime or the one against SD where the game was out of reach at the end? Ill take the former as I was convinced at the end that we would win and my heart was ripped out. At SD, I new the game was over before halftime so I had little or no emotional response.
As I have stated, haters are going to hate no matter what. The fact remains: Whiz has a body of work that is incomparable to any coach to ever stand on the sidelines for the AZ/PHX Cardinals.

Moreover, every coach has a down season. Every single one (read my first post of this thread). And with every one, you can take a minute to write dissertations like this about the coach. But we need to take a wait-and-see approach before we come to any conclusions. It may take one offseason. It may take two. But given the fact that he previously took a 5-11 team and in two years took it to the Superbowl is a tall-tale sign that he is more than capable of doing it once more.

This wasn't just a down season...there are disturbing trends here, especially in matters that Kurt Warner could not directily impact...like the defense melting consistently and there being too many occasions where the team lays a total egg. Too often to ignore or condone.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

This wasn't just a down season...there are disturbing trends here, especially in matters that Kurt Warner could not directily impact...like the defense melting consistently and there being too many occasions where the team lays a total egg. Too often to ignore or condone.

as much as i'm nowhere near ready to can whiz, and as much as i hate to say it, mitch raises good points with the consistently melting down defense and the blowout losses.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Way to leave Ben Roethlisberger's first two years out of the equation Mitch. Lying through stats. Hey isn't the year that he did so bad because of Whiz the year that he had the serious motorcycle crash? Stupid Whiz.

i like how Mitch just completely ignored this in his argument and when you pointed it out.

 

[TJ]

This wasn't just a down season...there are disturbing trends here, especially in matters that Kurt Warner could not directily impact...like the defense melting consistently and there being too many occasions where the team lays a total egg. Too often to ignore or condone.

First, we fired the defensive coordinator, which should provide an immediate change in the right direction. The lack of leadership on this side of the ball was the impetus behind many of our blowouts. It is important to know that the DC has almost full autonomy in his position.

Second, like I stated earlier, you take a prolific QB off the roster and have no viable replacement the following season, you are going to struggle big. That's what happened to us. I blame Whis and the FO for not having the right contingency plan for this, but we have another offseason to find that guy.

You also speak of a trend. There is no trend here. The trend before was three seasons at or above .500. The trend was two consecutive division titles. One losing season is NOT a trend

 

[Mulli]

Mitch, did the soft practices just become a problem this year? I guess the guarantee still stands. Seems silly.

 

[Cardiac]

Mitch, did the soft practices just become a problem this year? I guess the guarantee still stands. Seems silly.

Trouble maker.

 

[desertdawg]

Trouble maker.

Just woke up and it is deja vu.

 

[kerouac9]

First, we fired the defensive coordinator, which should provide an immediate change in the right direction. The lack of leadership on this side of the ball was the impetus behind many of our blowouts. It is important to know that the DC has almost full autonomy in his position.

Second, like I stated earlier, you take a prolific QB off the roster and have no viable replacement the following season, you are going to struggle big. That's what happened to us. I blame Whis and the FO for not having the right contingency plan for this, but we have another offseason to find that guy.

You also speak of a trend. There is no trend here. The trend before was three seasons at or above .500. The trend was two consecutive division titles. One losing season is NOT a trend

You're going to have a drop-off in offensive production, but we tanked. After Elway retired, the Denver offense went from 3rd in yards and 2nd in points to 14th in yards and 18th in points. After Marino retired, the Miami offense went from 20th in yards and 13th in points to 26th in yards and 16th in points. When Steve Young left the 49ers, they dropped from 1st in yards and 3rd in points to 10th in yards and 22nd in points (???--Young started 3 games, and so Jeff Garcia took over early in the season; the next year, the 49ers were 4th in yards and 6th in points).

The Cards fell from 14th in yards and 11th in points to 26th in yards and 31st in points. I said it before this season: losing streaks longer than 3 games are on the coaching staff. Yes, this team was going to drop off in it's offensive production once Warner left, but the total cratering that happened is on the coaching staff (who decided to cut #7) and the front office (who wanted to see some return on their investment in #7).

Mitch and I are at a rare point of agreement on one thing: There is not enough diversity of background or opinion on the offensive coaching staff. When the offense went into the tank, the offensive staff had no answer whatsoever. Why is this the case? Because Miller, Grimm, and Whis have essentially worked only together for the past decade.

 

[Mulli]

Just woke up and it is deja vu.

I don't think Mitch answered when I asked before? I repeated it for clarification.

 

[Mulli]

You're going to have a drop-off in offensive production, but we tanked. After Elway retired, the Denver offense went from 3rd in yards and 2nd in points to 14th in yards and 18th in points. After Marino retired, the Miami offense went from 20th in yards and 13th in points to 26th in yards and 16th in points. When Steve Young left the 49ers, they dropped from 1st in yards and 3rd in points to 10th in yards and 22nd in points (???--Young started 3 games, and so Jeff Garcia took over early in the season; the next year, the 49ers were 4th in yards and 6th in points).

The Cards fell from 14th in yards and 11th in points to 26th in yards and 31st in points. I said it before this season: losing streaks longer than 3 games are on the coaching staff. Yes, this team was going to drop off in it's offensive production once Warner left, but the total cratering that happened is on the coaching staff (who decided to cut #7) and the front office (who wanted to see some return on their investment in #7).

Mitch and I are at a rare point of agreement on one thing: There is not enough diversity of background or opinion on the offensive coaching staff. When the offense went into the tank, the offensive staff had no answer whatsoever. Why is this the case? Because Miller, Grimm, and Whis have essentially worked only together for the past decade.

Yep, the coaching staff was woefully incompetent. Results on the field don't lie. I am especially concerned about how the Cards performed when playing the division.