Who trades for Rosen?

[moklerman]

It seems you're making the point that the low return it appears Rosen will fetch is not an accurate reflection of how great he is. Your previous posts seemed to be agreeing with those who claimed that Rosen could've fetched a much better return yesterday. Those are two distinct points and while i disagree with the first, it's entirely subjective. The second point is the one i've been refuting, since it defies all logic.

...dbs

There's no way to know what they would have got but it doesn't mean we have to wait to know that they handled it poorly. We already know they painted themselves into a corner and we already know that they wasted picks to move up for a player they gave up on after less than a season.

After hiring KK and apparently being transparent about their intentions to draft Murray, I agree that there wasn't much that they could have done differently to get more for Rosen. This isn't a discussion about the last 24 hours or 7 days. This is about the past year.

 

[daves]

So, how should they have gone about getting more for Rosen? By asking for less in the first place??

Is that the only option? Are you implying that the Cardinals took the only path that was available to them?

I was asking you questions, and you responded with more questions. I don't know the answer, but there are a plethora of posts here today stating that Keim has idiotically squandered Rosen's value by not trying to trade him sooner. I would really like to know what strategy these people are claiming Keim should've used. You said he has been asking too much. You seem to think he's worth a first round pick. So i'm asking how you, and any of the other posters who think like you, how Keim could've traded Rosen for a first round pick. I'm not implying anything. I just want someone to explain the logic behind this bizarre reasoning.

How do you know what Keim asked for anyway?

Where did I say that? No one "knows" what they asked for.

Right, no one knows what Keim asked for, yet you claim he asked for too much. Hmmm.

The people who overestimated his value in the first place were Keim and Co.

Clearly! Along with most of us on this board, until we saw him play a season, and half of the people on this board, even after seeing him play a season.

If you wanted to build your team's future around a 2nd year QB, would you give up a 1st-round pick for Josh Allen (QB, Bills)?

I don't know if Allen nets a first rounder today but there's no way to explore that idea.

I'm asking your opinion, to see how it relates to your opinion that Rosen is worthy of a first rounder. But apparently you prefer to pick apart my questions and answer them with more questions, rather than providing your answer. So, nevermind!

...dbs

 

[moklerman]

Why do you keep saying that I think they should have gotten a 1st for him? I said I think they must have been asking too much for him since he didn't get traded. Stands to reason that since the trade didn't happen, the Cardinals were asking too much. Leading up to the draft, there was talk of them not willing to take anything less than a 1 but now I don't know if that was reported or just board speculation.

What I did argue was that just because a team doesn't pony up a 1st for Rosen doesn't mean that they think he is less than a 1st round talent, just that they aren't willing to overpay market value for a FA QB trade.

As far as Josh Allen and what he would net on the open market if Buffalo made him available? I really don't know. I highly doubt he'd get a 1st and since he and Rosen both put up similar numbers, I suppose they'd get about the same in return. Allen posted a 67.9 rating to Rosen's 66.7 so it's not like there's a whole lot of difference in production. Since both are so young, I guess there's a chance that one might return a 2nd but considering some of the QB's that have been traded the last couple of years it looks like a 3rd or 4th IMO.

 

[daves]

Why do you keep saying that I think they should have gotten a 1st for him?

Well you did say:

[T]he reality was the Cardinals showed their hand too early and obviously and it killed any chance of trading him for a high pick.

That sounds to me as though you think, had the Cardinals played their hand correctly, they could've had a 1st round pick. Considering that we're now at the end of the first round, they could still get a 2nd rounder theoretically, and you're lamenting that they screwed up.

I have come to realize that your position is slightly different than the claims that Keim blew the ability to get a 1st round pick by either waiting too long to offer him up for trade, or showing his hand too early. (Yes, there are some on each side!) Your position seems to be simply that, the fact that they're not going to get a 1st round pick for him, does not imply that he's not a "1st round talent", whatever that means.

I said I think they must have been asking too much for him since he didn't get traded. Stands to reason that since the trade didn't happen, the Cardinals were asking too much.

So they should've asked for less? Like a 2nd rounder? I really can't understand what you think they should've done differently, to get more (i.e. a first round pick) for Rosen. Ask for less? Show their hand later? Maybe if you just spelled out what they SHOULD have done, rather than criticizing what they did, it would make sense.

I think simply that there's no scenario in which any other team would've given up a 1st rounder, and that fact was proven on day 1 of the draft. It's impossible to know, and there's really no reason to believe, that they could've got a 1st rounder had they played their hand differently.

What I did argue was that just because a team doesn't pony up a 1st for Rosen doesn't mean that they think he is less than a 1st round talent, just that they aren't willing to overpay market value for a FA QB trade.

It's the most obscure of points you're trying to make, that Rosen has 1st round talent, but not 1st round market value... especially considering that his signing bonus has already been paid, and he's still under a super cheap contract for up to 4 years. But, i have no interest in arguing that point.

As far as Josh Allen and what he would net on the open market if Buffalo made him available? I really don't know. I highly doubt he'd get a 1st and since he and Rosen both put up similar numbers, I suppose they'd get about the same in return.

We're in agreement here then. And yet, there are plenty of people clinging to the idea that Keim should've got a 1st for Rosen, but misplayed his hand because he's a drunken idiot.

...dbs

 

[Minski]

Tannehill and a 6th for a 4th and a 7th.
Flacco for a 4th.
Keenum for a 6th.
Tyrod Taylor for a 3rd.
Trevor Siemian for a 7th.
Alex Smith for a 3rd.

I think a 4th is pretty fair. Trades for QB's that teams are moving on from just don't garner a whole lot.

Don’t forget Rosen is still only 21. 3 years younger than Mayfield

 

[Redsz]

Yep. Think we are staring down the barrel of a second day pick for Rosen at this stage.

 

[Rohinaz]

Tannehill and a 6th for a 4th and a 7th.
Flacco for a 4th.
Keenum for a 6th.
Tyrod Taylor for a 3rd.
Trevor Siemian for a 7th.
Alex Smith for a 3rd.

I think a 4th is pretty fair. Trades for QB's that teams are moving on from just don't garner a whole lot.

Uhhh none of those guys were a top10 selection under contract for at least 3 more years at only 2m per year.

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[Veer]

Still hope for a 2nd. With the Giants reaching big-time for Jones and Haskins falling all the way to Washington, the flow of the draft did us no favors. Someone moving up in front of the Giants would have caused a QB run which would have helped us.

Despite me fully believing Rosen, at age 22, legit arm talent and a horrible/unfair rookie situation, is still worth a mid or late 1st, he would be a tough sell for any team trading for him. I think the Redskins could've rated him higher than Haskins but ownership for sure rather wanted a rookie QB to fill the seats rather than someone who already had negative exposure to the NFL.

Looking at the deep pools at OL, CB and WR in the 2nd, in addition to having the 1st choice in the 3rd as well, I'd be fine with a 2nd for Rosen. It sucks in retrospect, but despite being Team Murray, Rosen was the right pick last year.

Could've whiffed on the #15 pick last year and there would be nobody complaining about Murray. The 3rd and 5th be damned. If we hit #33, I care even less what was in 2018. It's a new HC, new scheme, new coaching staff - fresh start for everybody. Can't live in the past.