Whose game is Barbosa's most like?

[scotsman13]

We're comparing LB to KJ???? I'm assuming that these are people who never saw KJ play during his prime. This has got to be one of the silliest discussions I've ever seen on this board. I'm mean we're talking about one of only 3 players in NBA history to average over 20 points and 10 assists for 3 consecutive years while shooting an astounding 50%. He's ranked 6th in NBA HISTORY with a career 9.1 assists per game. Would you like to know the 5 players who are better then KJ in that regard? Magic, Stockton, Oscar Robertson, Isiah Thomas and Kidd by a hair at 9.3. (KJ will be back to the 5 spot as Kidd's career winds down) In fact the only reason he didn't average closer to 10 assists for his career is because he was gracious enough to pass the batton during his retirement year and give his minutes to Jason Kidd and Steve Nash. This is crazy that we're comparing an unproven, quality bench warmer who scores 20 points in a single game to a guy of KJ's stature in NBA history. LB at his very best still isn't even half the player that KJ was in his worst year. Sorry for being harsh, but this is downright silly.

the area that i compared lb to kj was one area of their games that that is the drive to the basket. in no way i have i said anything about lb passing being kj or that lb has kjs mid range pull pull up jumper (i believe that this jumper of his was one of the most unguardable shoots in basketball and i am shocked that more players dont develop one). lb drives inside and getting within about 5 to 10 of the hoop is what makes him and kj a lot of alike. also they both end up on the floor a lot after those drives.

 

[hcsilla]

As for standards and Johnson, I'll take a Kevin Johnson over 90% of the points in NBA history, but he tended to take things on himself in a pinch, and preferred it that way. A majority of his assists came off the two man game(Nance, Chambers, Barkley). A point who puts his head down alot when he drives gives up court vision and is more predictable. Its a choice, but, given KJ's one-on-one skills, it isn't a bad one, its just more predictable, more shooting guard-like. I dont use stats to eval point guards nature, they are unreliable. Wilt Chamberlain had 10+ assists in one season, but no one called him a point guard that year. Assist totals depend on the talents of complementary players. The question is, do savy veterans stand around and watch him when he drives? No sense in moving without the ball if he's probably gonna shoot. To some extent, this was true with KJ at certain times. In this way, Kevin was not like todays selfish points, but more so than Magic, Cheeks, Nash , Stockton and some other other less successful points whos first goal was to get other involved in the game. Pure points are quite rare, and skilled pure points are very rare.

Good post.

The question is, do savy veterans stand around and watch him when he drives? No sense in moving without the ball if he's probably gonna shoot.

Wasn't that exceptionally true for Stephon Marbury?

Now under Brown he seems to be totally confused about what to do as a PG. The reason can be that everyone else on the Knicks seems to be confused what to do on the court.

 

[elindholm]

Now under Brown (Marbury) seems to be totally confused about what to do as a PG.

That's because his skills are incompatible with Brown's concept of what is "the right way." Marbury can't learn a completely different way to play in just a month or two. Brown should be smart and flexible enough to accommodate Marbury's game into his system, but he can't, and Marbury's getting the blame for it.

 

[nowagimp]

Mechanics "experts" have failed to explain how "poor mechanics" lead to good free throws and "good mechanics" lead to poor free throws.
.

That's just not correct. Simple physics tells you that (a) the ball has an easier time getting through the hoop if it is shot with good arc, because the hoop "looks" larger from a more vertical angle, and (b) gentle backspin is likely to cause the ball to "die" on the rim and fall through, compared to a knuckle-ball shot which is more likely to kick out.

Good mechanics don't guarantee that someone will be a good shooter, and someone with terrible mechanics might, through repetition, be able to compensate for them. You can think of it like typing: I type pretty quickly, but I've improvised a bizarre system that works fairly well for my particular hands and fingers. A true touch typist, properly trained, has the potential to be much faster and more accurate than I am.

Iverson takes off balanced shots alot, that causes his inconsistencies. He also shoots poor free throws fro a guy who spends so much time at the line.

Barbosa has a minimal edge over Iverson in career FT%, 79% to 77%. So I don't think this line of argument provides much insight in this case.

I agree that, in general, someone's FT accuracy is a good measuring stick for his overall skill as a shooter. However, it's just one measuring stick, not a guarantee, and someone like Marion provides a good counterexample.

In this way, Kevin was not like todays selfish points, but more so than Magic, Cheeks, Nash , Stockton and some other other less successful points whos first goal was to get other involved in the game.

Cheeks is before my time (meaning, before I started paying much attention to players who weren't on the Suns). But if you're disqualifying Johnson because so many of his assists came from the two-man game, you need to disqualify Stockton and Nash for the same reason.

Kevin Learned to play the point but came into the league with two guard skills( you remember?).

I remember that point being made before, by other Barbosa apologists. I can't claim to have a crystal-clear memory of Johnson's earliest years in the league, but I do know that from the first time I saw him, he looked much more like a point guard than Barbosa ever has.

I'll take a Kevin Johnson over 90% of the points in NBA history, but he tended to take things on himself in a pinch, and preferred it that way.

I don't see how you can claim to know what he "preferred." As far as the observation goes that he took things upon himself too much, I reject that as a criticism. You have to take what the defense gives you. If they are playing off of your shot and making it difficult or impossible to find an open teammate, then you have no choice but to step up and take the shot yourself. Even Kidd, the alleged consummate "pure PG" of our day, finds himself taking crunch-time shots quite often. Of course, in his case, it's because he can't shoot, making it an even more effective strategy for the defense.

A point who puts his head down alot when he drives gives up court vision and is more predictable.

If you are saying that Johnson was a less effective point guard than Magic Johnson or Oscar Robertson, I agree. Those two players made excellent use of their height advantage.

We can just disagree on the relevance of your assuming how LB will turn out as a veteran.

We also seem to disagree on how quickly Johnson matured. Didn't the Suns acquire him in his rookie year? And didn't he lead the Suns to the WCF just a year or two after that? (These are honest questions; I can't remember and can't easily dig up the information.)

I didnt want to do this but, I guess mechanics must be defined. Mechanics are dynamic physics, not static physics, like for instance the angle of the shot. Shot mechanics are simply: does the player use a reproducible motion with reproducible energy and release applied to the ball. Marions(and Alex Englishs' by the way) shot mechanics are very reproducible, as evidenced by theb accurate free throws. Their form is considered poor by conventional teaching guidelines. But often, we learn that individuals can do thinks differently, but just as effectively using a different method. For example, Muhammad Ali's dancing around the ring was considered bad Boxing technique. There have been many high average hitters in baseball with "unconventional" swings. Different doesnt mean bad. I agree with the angle of Barbosa's shot, though. This just means that the reproducibility of his mechanics must be very good for it to go in 79% from the foul line at that angle. Watch this go up, by the way, as he gets more minutes per game. I almost regret that we have to get into a turf war just to talk about Barbosa's amazing talent. I still compare him to a young KJ athletically, already said his passing is a long way from that of KJ, Still regard KJ as a "great" shoot first point guard, regardless of assist totals. Barbosa does not have the pull up jumper to go with the lightning first step. If he develops it and improves his passing, we can return to the KJ comparison. Assists per game are unreliable, especially when you have played with 2 guys like Chambers and Barkley, few points have had such a luxury. Marbury has always had ~8 asst a game but I remember he didn't get everyone involved, no vision. KJ was much better than Marbury, period, but he and Sir Charles used to disagree who should take the shot, and Charles was a 60% shooter from the field, who created open shots for others as well. Most players have egos, only a few dont need to score to be fulfilled(Hello, Boris!!).

As for the maturity of KJ, he played alot and was the focus of player development coaches wherever he went. Barbosa has had language barrier to work with, so coaching is not that easy and his PT has been limited.

As for the vision argument, yes shoot first point guards rarely have the vision as one who's primary options are getting the shots for other players. You dont have to have a pure point to win(many) champoinships, that is obvious. However, you will get more out of your available talent if you have one. This was why Nash was so effective last year.

This year, opposing teams are making Nash pay for not having a low post threat to stretch the defense. I suggest that we start looking at other teams without a low post threat. Right now we are one of the worst. What other teams have this kind of hole?

 

[nowagimp]

I'm having a hard time comparing LB's game to any player.

I guess he has the flavor of multiple players.

- His first step is KJ-like.
- His set shot from deep reminds me of ???
- His D can become somewhat Sidney Moncreif-like? (Without the golf clubs.)
- His length is sort of like Michael Cooper???

Before we annoint LB the next-great-Suns-PG, I want to see him develop the consistency. If he can do that, this guy is going to light the league on fire for years to come.

His first step to the hole (going left) is cat-quick. He's now finishing strong, keeping the defender on his right hip. That's a pretty good combination.

I here you there, hence the relatively lousy comparisons

 

[elindholm]

Mechanics are dynamic physics, not static physics, like for instance the angle of the shot. Shot mechanics are simply: does the player use a reproducible motion with reproducible energy and release applied to the ball. Marions(and Alex Englishs' by the way) shot mechanics are very reproducible, as evidenced by theb accurate free throws. Their form is considered poor by conventional teaching guidelines. But often, we learn that individuals can do thinks differently, but just as effectively using a different method. For example, Muhammad Ali's dancing around the ring was considered bad Boxing technique. There have been many high average hitters in baseball with "unconventional" swings. Different doesnt mean bad.

I'm not sure what your point is. If your point is that it's possible for someone to become very good in spite of poor technique, then yes, there's no debating that. I think the boxing example is poor because it represents a philosophical question more than anything else, but the other examples are just fine. You could also have mentioned Rick Barry's free throw technique -- which obviously would not work for regular shooting -- or that female British long-distance runner whose head bobs around so much, the one who dropped out in the middle of the Olympic marathon (I believe).

In general, however, one's accuracy ceiling is higher with a technique that is fundamentally sound. Marion's shooting form, in fact, isn't reproducible on a reliable basis -- you'll notice that his accuracy on jump shots goes down at the ends of close games, when fatigue and/or nerves are disruptive to the delicate, quirky balance he's worked out. (I haven't noticed whether the same thing happens to his free throws.)

However, Marion has compensating advantages that Barbosa lacks. Because he jumps so quickly, Marion usually has room to get his shot off comfortably, even though his release point (like Barbosa's) is lower than it "should" be. Marion also has pretty good arc and rotation, in spite of the funky release. Barbosa has a lot of handicaps to overcome if he wants to be a reliable shooter.

I still compare him to a young KJ athletically

Maybe it would help if you could be more specific about what similarities you see between them, other than they are both about the same height, both very quick, and both play(ed) for the Suns.

KJ was much better than Marbury, period, but he and Sir Charles used to disagree who should take the shot, and Charles was a 60% shooter from the field

Check your stats. Barkley didn't shoot nearly that well during his last full season in Phoenix, which is when the turf war with Johnson really got going. Also, Barkley was much more prone to force bad shots than Johnson was. Especially once he started to slow down, Barkley could be guarded one-on-one by someone with the right length and savvy. He could never accept this, so he insisted on trying to make things happen by himself.

 

[fordronken]

However, Marion has compensating advantages that Barbosa lacks. Because he jumps so quickly, Marion usually has room to get his shot off comfortably, even though his release point (like Barbosa's) is lower than it "should" be. Marion also has pretty good arc and rotation, in spite of the funky release. Barbosa has a lot of handicaps to overcome if he wants to be a reliable shooter.

Of course, Barbosa can also lose defenders at least quickly enough to get a shot off, as shown in his recent ability to hit pull up mid range jump shots. Whenever Marion dribbles, I'm surprised when it's not a turnover.

 

[nowagimp]

Mechanics are dynamic physics, not static physics, like for instance the angle of the shot. Shot mechanics are simply: does the player use a reproducible motion with reproducible energy and release applied to the ball. Marions(and Alex Englishs' by the way) shot mechanics are very reproducible, as evidenced by theb accurate free throws. Their form is considered poor by conventional teaching guidelines. But often, we learn that individuals can do thinks differently, but just as effectively using a different method. For example, Muhammad Ali's dancing around the ring was considered bad Boxing technique. There have been many high average hitters in baseball with "unconventional" swings. Different doesnt mean bad.

I'm not sure what your point is. If your point is that it's possible for someone to become very good in spite of poor technique, then yes, there's no debating that. I think the boxing example is poor because it represents a philosophical question more than anything else, but the other examples are just fine. You could also have mentioned Rick Barry's free throw technique -- which obviously would not work for regular shooting -- or that female British long-distance runner whose head bobs around so much, the one who dropped out in the middle of the Olympic marathon (I believe).

In general, however, one's accuracy ceiling is higher with a technique that is fundamentally sound. Marion's shooting form, in fact, isn't reproducible on a reliable basis -- you'll notice that his accuracy on jump shots goes down at the ends of close games, when fatigue and/or nerves are disruptive to the delicate, quirky balance he's worked out. (I haven't noticed whether the same thing happens to his free throws.)

However, Marion has compensating advantages that Barbosa lacks. Because he jumps so quickly, Marion usually has room to get his shot off comfortably, even though his release point (like Barbosa's) is lower than it "should" be. Marion also has pretty good arc and rotation, in spite of the funky release. Barbosa has a lot of handicaps to overcome if he wants to be a reliable shooter.

I still compare him to a young KJ athletically

Maybe it would help if you could be more specific about what similarities you see between them, other than they are both about the same height, both very quick, and both play(ed) for the Suns.

KJ was much better than Marbury, period, but he and Sir Charles used to disagree who should take the shot, and Charles was a 60% shooter from the field

Check your stats. Barkley didn't shoot nearly that well during his last full season in Phoenix, which is when the turf war with Johnson really got going. Also, Barkley was much more prone to force bad shots than Johnson was. Especially once he started to slow down, Barkley could be guarded one-on-one by someone with the right length and savvy. He could never accept this, so he insisted on trying to make things happen by himself.

My mistake here. I followed Barkleys career as a 76er fan, I saw the whole thing, including the 8 years before he came to the suns. I think that Suns fans missed most of the best part, unfortunately.

You are correct that Barkleys association with KJ was also associated with an immediate 5% drop in his FG% compared with Cheeks in philadelphia, though his (Barkleys) assists went up. KJ's assists fell notably(down 2 assists per game) at the same time Barkley arrived. Before this association, Barkley was a top 3 leader in FG% for 7-8 years at an overall 57% on a team less talented than the suns, then poof 52% the first year, 50% the second with the suns. I wonder if this had something to do with their disagreement or if it was just bad chemistry. A point guard can make or break a post players productivity in the low post by getting him the ball when and where he needs it. Just look at Marbury versus Nash for Amare. Amare had much easier shots and his FG% went up with Nash. The forced shot argument against Barkley actually has to do with delivering the ball late or out of position. After all the top FG% shooters in the league can't be forcing too many shots. As this was not a probelm for Barkley with Cheeks in Phila, i can only speculate that the chemistry with KJ had something to do with it.

As for comparisons of Barbosa to KJ, it is very difficult as Barbosa has had little playing time. KJ had 3.7 asst in 20min per game his rookie year in cleveland and shot 46% FG's. He obviously improved alot after that with the suns. They both have fast first steps and handle the ball well on the crossover. Both are(were) often undersized on matchups with their defenders and use quickness to compensate. Barbosa will one day be as good or better a defender than KJ. They both are(were) very good finishers on the break. Barbosa has been difficult to coach due to language differences. KJ was certainly a better foul shooter, though most NBA scouts consider 79% pretty good. We'll see if it improves. In the mean time lighten up eindhol you get to watch one of the most exciting teams in the league with exciting new players that even you did not predict would pan out.

 

[elindholm]

In the mean time lighten up eindhol

It was a good discussion until this. Each of us has set out points thoughtfully and defended them energetically. Why do you need to tell me to "lighten up"?

 

[Gaddabout]

You guys might think I'm crazy, but Barbosa reminds me of Gary Payton. That have a similar body type and explosiveness. If Barbosa had played the American college game, I think he might have had a bigger jump step on things like team defense. Payton's jump shot was never pretty, and he was always more of a scoring point guard who fed teammates after he worked his own scoring angles.

Payton will always be more of a point guard than Barbosa, I think, but their games their body types are real similar.

 

[nowagimp]

In the mean time lighten up eindhol

It was a good discussion until this. Each of us has set out points thoughtfully and defended them energetically. Why do you need to tell me to "lighten up"?

I can agree to disagree with someone without feeling insulted by the exchange. You apparently can not do this. Essentially I have not changed my view in the KJ/Barbosa comparison. Young KJ, Young Barbosa, athleticism, speed, ballhandling, defense, etc., Both of these guys have/will learn their NBA basketball skills in the NBA. I will not compare Amare with a seasoned vet like Duncan yet, either. Raw physical skill just tells us about potential, that is all. Players tendencies can also be used, but these change with NBA experience, hence an unfair comparison to a player not yet playing 20 min a game for 1 season. At any rate, most NBA players cannot be similar on too many levels especially, young players who are relatively undeveloped. To develop high energy and forceful arguments over this type of comparison is a waste of energy, that is where the "lighten up" came from.

As for our disagreements about KJ, oh well, I guess it is as it is. Every player has strengths and weaknesses and all can be criticized. KJ was an outstanding, even great player, good enough to lead his team to a championship even if it didnt happen. I Also, am still of the opinion that he was a shoot first point. You were apparently insulted by this opinion. Michael Jordan was a shoot first player that ran his offense. Should he be insulted if I say he was a shoot first player? As passing point guards go, I dont even think KJ was top 10% during his time in the league. He created ALOT of space breaking down his man to force the passing lanes open, but I was not all that impressed(good but not great) with his ability to see the open player in traffic and get the pass through against tough defense. Timing also can be everything in the "perfect pass", especially on the post. Indications are that cheeks did it better than KJ, as evidenced in the large drop in Barkleys shooting pct, even as he passed the ball more. This is what Nash does, pass the ball accurately and at the right time,as long as the defense can be spread out. I love steve Nash, but I can criticize him as well, as I don't take the criticisms personally. If you were not taking anything personally, I withdraw the statement and apologize if you were insulted by it.

 

[elindholm]

I can agree to disagree with someone without feeling insulted by the exchange. You apparently can not do this.

I wasn't insulted at all until the "lighten up" admonition, which you then followed up with this gem.

To develop high energy and forceful arguments over this type of comparison is a waste of energy

Oh.

Why discuss things at all then?

 

[Errntknght]

I'm constantly amazed that posters on here make remarks like "lighten up" and are then surprised that it changes the tenor of a discussion. Even if it's relatively mild it's still directed at the person not the subject under discussion, so it is 'getting personal'.

In this particular case, I didn't see one person alone carrying the discussion to new, unwarrented, heights of energy and forcefulness. One party saying, "I think we both need to lighten up" might have been much better received.

(Note: Errntknght loaned me his screenname so I could give this little lecture on manners and he is not to be held accountable for anything I said.)

 

[KingofCards]

Barbosa reminds me of Clyde Drexler.

 

[Yuma]

Barbosa reminds me of Clyde Drexler.

I think he has a physical similarity to Clyde. Kinda the body shape, face shape thing going on. I still think his play is like Mobley in that he's a small using cat quickness to drive inside or create space for the three. Isn't Mobley's nickname something like El Gato (The Cat)?

 

[ASUCHRIS]

A soccer player, that is the only player that Barbosa moves like. His cuts, fakes, and jukes are all things that soccer players do, and the influence would have to be there considering he is from Brazil, home of Ronaldo, Ronaldhinio, and Roberto Carlos. (They play soccer)

 

[zett]

Point 1; Barbosa is him self not like any other player , He is unique and tries to incorperate the nba style into his game.

Point 2; KJ and barbosa are not and should not ever be put in the same category, unless maybe your comparing shoes

Point 3; Barkley holding the ball for 15 sec on the block may have had as much to do with your KJ barkley scenero then anything else.

 

[haverford]

A soccer player, that is the only player that Barbosa moves like. His cuts, fakes, and jukes are all things that soccer players do, and the influence would have to be there considering he is from Brazil, home of Ronaldo, Ronaldhinio, and Roberto Carlos. (They play soccer)

That is a really smart observation. He does lean into things like a striker with thirty yards in front of him. The one area the analogy fails in, however, is when dribbling--he's not a fancy ball-handler by any means. But he does have that soccer style plunge toward the box/lane....

 

[myrondizzo]

That is a really smart observation. He does lean into things like a striker with thirty yards in front of him. The one area the analogy fails in, however, is when dribbling--he's not a fancy ball-handler by any means. But he does have that soccer style plunge toward the box/lane....

didnt nash used to play soccer as well? hopefully it will help barbosa with running the offense.

 

[nowagimp]

Point 1; Barbosa is him self not like any other player , He is unique and tries to incorperate the nba style into his game.

Point 2; KJ and barbosa are not and should not ever be put in the same category, unless maybe your comparing shoes

Point 3; Barkley holding the ball for 15 sec on the block may have had as much to do with your KJ barkley scenero then anything else.

1) can be said about a very large number of nba players, so I guess dont compare is the message.

2) KJ and barbosa are in the same category: guards, suns guards, fast guards, small guards etc.,

3) Maybe. Still, not enough information. Sometimes the ball is held to force the double team, and then pass out of it to the open man. If the spacing is not right, players must move to force the double. Barkleys first year as a sun was his career high in assists, 5.1/game. KJ went from 19.7pts, 10.7 assists the year before the Barkley trade to 16.1 pts, 7.8 assists in that year(that Barkley arrived) that the suns made it to the NBA finals. Both Barkley(FG% down to 52% from career avg of 57%) and KJ(assists, 7.8) had performance declines. Barkley should have had less defensive pressure on him in phoenix than in phila, which didn't have alot of good shooters to spread the defense. It could be that he just started holding the ball in phoenix. Could be that it was just bad chemistry, a bad move. But then I dont think the suns would have made it to the finals that year.

 

[nowagimp]

didnt nash used to play soccer as well? hopefully it will help barbosa with running the offense.

This soccer observation is very observant. I recall NBA scouts saying that Akeem Olajuwon had the best footwork of any big man because of the soccer influence. I had noticed that Nash also has very good footwork, if not footspeed. The footwork, I think, helps players move more effectively through alot of defensive traffic.

 

[Errntknght]

nowagimp, "KJ went from 19.7pts, 10.7 assists the year before the Barkley trade to 16.1 pts, 7.8 assists in that year(that Barkley arrived)"

Probably a lot of that had to do with the fact that when Barkley got a pass in the post he always dribbled the ball before he shot it, so no one got an assist on the pass. (Actually, he usually dribbled so much that it was long forgotten who threw him the ball by the time he put up the shot.)

 

[nowagimp]

nowagimp, "KJ went from 19.7pts, 10.7 assists the year before the Barkley trade to 16.1 pts, 7.8 assists in that year(that Barkley arrived)"

Probably a lot of that had to do with the fact that when Barkley got a pass in the post he always dribbled the ball before he shot it, so no one got an assist on the pass. (Actually, he usually dribbled so much that it was long forgotten who threw him the ball by the time he put up the shot.)

Could be part of it. I recall the color commentators saying how charles was "doing the right thing" by forcing the double team and passing out of it. Unfortunately, if the other players are spaced poorly(too close), the double doesn't happen until very late. This may have also led to the poor shooting percentage by Barkley. At any rate, he had a career high that year of 5.1 assists per game, which was probably(?) among the best of any quality low post player in the NBA. I do not remember this problem in philadelphia, where I lived at the time and watched almost all the games. And as I said, his shooting percentage dropped ALOT(5% from his career avg) in spite of having better players around him while scoring about the same. I still suspect chemistry problems or that the Suns and Westphal did not know how to use him effectively. The fact that it became known the following year that he and KJ didnt get along was probably actually true the previous year as well. I never thought that much of Westphal as a coach and it now appears that the NBA didnt, either. As for being a "poor" defensive player, that also seemed to deteriorate after the back injuries(and the suns running game?). Aside from Marley and KJ, I dont think that the 92-93 suns were very good defensively, and Westphal was never recognized as a defensive coach(that is an understatement!).

I find that many comments I have read on the board are directed towards the frustration with the failure to win the championship in 92-93. I think Barkley has been to goat for much of the frustration, though few consider that the Suns took the Bulls to 6 games and Barkley certainly did his part in making that series competitive. Lets face it, those bulls won alot of championships, and beat alot of good teams.

 

[BC867]

I find that many comments I have read on the board are directed towards the frustration with the failure to win the championship in 92-93. I think Barkley has been to goat for much of the frustration, though few consider that the Suns took the Bulls to 6 games and Barkley certainly did his part in making that series competitive. Lets face it, those bulls won alot of championships, and beat alot of good teams.

Was part of the problem that, when Mark West was out with foul trouble (and he was certainly not an all-around Center), there was no quality Center on the floor, leaving the Chuckster, at 6' 4 1/2" as our "biggest" player on the court.

Back then wasn't like today's NBA, when it was traditional to have a starting caliber Center closing, leaving the Power Forward to not be overmatched.