Why Brad Johnson is a key acquisition in 2005

[john h]

We all have watched a lot of Peyton Manning this year and who wouldn't. One thing that Manning has is an amazing understanding of his offense, a lot of his passes where thrown in an exact spot knowing the WR would be there before he even spent time looking for the 'open guy'. It is a dangerous chemistry that the Colts have, the Patriots year after year seem to mess with it because they have a great coach and play physical with the Colt Wrs so they can't reach their spots. Johnson would be a great pickup because he has a good understanding of what Green is running and where the WRs will be. Considering the draft and the free-agents available, I would have to agree that Brad Johnson would be a good fit for this team at this time. A majority of the big plays Boldin has had in the past where quick throws he was able to catch in stride before the QB even had time to look for this open WR.

Peyton Manning is not only a great QB but he is a great OC as he calls all the plays at the line. He directs players like a symphony orchestra leader. He reads defenses like a master and blitzing him is the kiss of death.

 

[Russ Smith]

Thanks Russ for the info on Manning. I wasn't implying that Josh could be the next P Manning, it was just an example. My point was that we are not giving him a chance, we wanted him great now. I think only Big Ben has been the rookie exception in recent years.

Any thoughts?

Yeah I wasn't ripping you I was just saying comparing virtually ANY rookie QB in the last 10 years to Manning is bad, the guy was simply born and raised to play QB. Ben came the closest and he didn't come near 26 TD's and he certainly wasn't on as bad a team as Peyton was and thrown to the wolves. I never understood the hype on Eli Manning, I think he has a CHANCE to be good, he's got good size and a good arm, but he didn't display anywhere near the polish that Peyton did at such a young age, that he struggled this year was no surprise to me at all.

Ben was the QB i wanted, I only saw him play twice in school and both times he just looked literally like a man among boys. Like a guy who was 10 years older than everyone else out there physically and mentally. I didn't expect him to be THIS poised right away but the fact that he had the best rookie year of the big 3 rookies is not surprising at all.

I want to keep Josh, I just think we need a viable starter to compete with him and I don't think Navarre is a viable starter. Harrington would be at the right price, so would johnson, Griese if the Bucs can't come to terms with him, Brooks if the Saints dump him. I don't want to be in the position we were this year where when Josh struggled we had only King and Navarre as replacements.

 

[Rats]

I do not think the receivers sucked and they were more p------off than anything because we had a QB who could not see them and then not deliver to them if he happened to see them.

*sigh* .....usual suspects in this debate. John, the receivers were mostly pissed at the play calling...not the QB. They expressed confidence in him and said so. They never understood why he was benched. But whatever everyone is intitled to there opinion. Swd, the one thing that keeping Josh on the bench next year will accomplish is that you will get a B. Berry Jersey(It will probably be pink after I run it through the wash since I would get you the white one) But I expect that I will be wearing that Fitz jersey sometime next season. I offered you the chance to concede and get me a Boldin Jersey half off. You should have took it.

 

[Russ Smith]

Peyton Manning is not only a great QB but he is a great OC as he calls all the plays at the line. He directs players like a symphony orchestra leader. He reads defenses like a master and blitzing him is the kiss of death.

True but the point Jetstream was making is the way they play is dangerous because if you mess up the timing, Manning is throwing balls to spots, not players and if the player isn't there, a DB gets an easy pick.

That's one of the reasons Manning has always thrown picks and why his pick numbers are falling now, he's getting better, and his Wr's and TE's all sort of peaked together. Add in a change in how they call PI so that messing up the timing is MUCH harder, and it led to his amazing year.

if you can disrupt them without penalties, he will turn it over.

 

[john h]

I just can't come up with a good experienced qb to fit the Cards needs. DG will get rid of King no doubt about that. He will bring in a qb to compete with Josh for the starting job. Navarre will be on the team and perhaps in the mix.
I'm sure DG has someone in mind but I just have not come up with a good fit.

You can bet DG and Grave have at least three QB's on the black board they have in mind. We will probably keep McCown as there are not many good FA QB's available. If he has the promise some think he has and is a FA then he may want more than DG and Graves will pay. That is a thought that will probably shock some. I think we will get an experienced QB who can hit our all pro caliber receivers and who can read defenses. Do not know who but we will get one. We will be a better team next year.

 

[Faithful]

Yeah I wasn't ripping you I was just saying comparing virtually ANY rookie QB in the last 10 years to Manning is bad, the guy was simply born and raised to play QB. Ben came the closest and he didn't come near 26 TD's and he certainly wasn't on as bad a team as Peyton was and thrown to the wolves. I never understood the hype on Eli Manning, I think he has a CHANCE to be good, he's got good size and a good arm, but he didn't display anywhere near the polish that Peyton did at such a young age, that he struggled this year was no surprise to me at all.

Ben was the QB i wanted, I only saw him play twice in school and both times he just looked literally like a man among boys. Like a guy who was 10 years older than everyone else out there physically and mentally. I didn't expect him to be THIS poised right away but the fact that he had the best rookie year of the big 3 rookies is not surprising at all.

I want to keep Josh, I just think we need a viable starter to compete with him and I don't think Navarre is a viable starter. Harrington would be at the right price, so would johnson, Griese if the Bucs can't come to terms with him, Brooks if the Saints dump him. I don't want to be in the position we were this year where when Josh struggled we had only King and Navarre as replacements.

You think had we taken Ben and not Fitz that Johnson and Williams would have made Ben look as good (seeing that Bolden was out 1/2 the season)?

 

[az jam]

You can bet DG and Grave have at least three QB's on the black board they have in mind. We will probably keep McCown as there are not many good FA QB's available. If he has the promise some think he has and is a FA then he may want more than DG and Graves will pay. That is a thought that will probably shock some. I think we will get an experienced QB who can hit our all pro caliber receivers and who can read defenses. Do not know who but we will get one. We will be a better team next year.

We are both in agreement on this!

 

[Evil Ash]

I do not think the receivers sucked and they were more p------off than anything because we had a QB who could not see them and then not deliver to them if he happened to see them.

Read my later post because no one is answering my question ... if our Wrs did everything they were supposed to do and were wide open a great deal then why was our WR coach fired?

A lot of people are also ignoring points that I've made on QBs before ... there is no simplistic formula in when discovering when a QB is going to get it. Not all players have the same learning curve. Steve Young stunk in Tampa Bay, Jake Delhomme was mediocre everywhere that he went before Carolina, and Rich Gannon sucked in Minnesota. I don't know when or if Josh will "get it" and neither does anyone else.

I wish their was a simplistic answer to fix our horrific offense, I honestly do. However there isn't ... WE ARE NOT ONE PLAYER AWAY!! There are more things that go into the offense than just QB play (I hate to break it to some of you). I brought uo the majority of the problems with our offense after the Bills game and I was ignored until other QBs played and then everyone came to the same conclusions as me ... How can that happen?

Am I saying that we should just give Josh the starting job? No, not hardly. He did some things well (he seemed to do very well when he audibled) and he didn't do other things well. I prefer to have a vet compete with Josh for the starting job and truthfully with whats out there I'm not expecting much of an improvement (if any improvement at all). Just keep in mind Brad Johnson was the 3rd string QB FOR A REASON.

 

[BigRedMO]

I watched most of the Cards games this year. I have the DirectTV football package. I tortured myself by sitting and watching that inept 3 and out offense and dreaming of the days of Neil Lomax and Jim Hart when they had a QB who struck fear instead of sympathy in the hearts of the opposition. The Rams game was a good anomaly but then McCown returned to form.

 

[Russ Smith]

You think had we taken Ben and not Fitz that Johnson and Williams would have made Ben look as good (seeing that Bolden was out 1/2 the season)?

I think it's irrelevant. We won 6 games and are now wondering again do we have a QB, do we sign a FA, draft one, and by we I mean Green and Graves.
Had they taken Ben, they wouldn't be doing that.

Ben's numbers would have been worse here, I don't disagree, but his TALENT and POTENTIAL would be the same.

You can stack the team with talent around Josh, but he's still not going to go back and have 3 WR's wide open on every play, that just doesn't happen in the NFL. That's one of his biggest weaknesses, he doesn't see the whole field so if the open guy is in his "blind spot" he never sees him. Ben sees things as a rookie that Josh doesn't in year 3.

 

[Rats]

Read my later post because no one is answering my question ... if our Wrs did everything they were supposed to do and were wide open a great deal then why was our WR coach fired?

A lot of people are also ignoring points that I've made on QBs before ... there is no simplistic formula in when discovering when a QB is going to get it. Not all players have the same learning curve. Steve Young stunk in Tampa Bay, Jake Delhomme was mediocre everywhere that he went before Carolina, and Rich Gannon sucked in Minnesota. I don't know when or if Josh will "get it" and neither does anyone else.

I wish their was a simplistic answer to fix our horrific offense, I honestly do. However there isn't ... WE ARE NOT ONE PLAYER AWAY!! There are more things that go into the offense than just QB play (I hate to break it to some of you). I brought uo the majority of the problems with our offense after the Bills game and I was ignored until other QBs played and then everyone came to the same conclusions as me ... How can that happen?

Am I saying that we should just give Josh the starting job? No, not hardly. He did some things well (he seemed to do very well when he audibled) and he didn't do other things well. I prefer to have a vet compete with Josh for the starting job and truthfully with whats out there I'm not expecting much of an improvement (if any improvement at all). Just keep in mind Brad Johnson was the 3rd string QB FOR A REASON.

I feel you are right on with this. The NFL is about competition and because Josh did not answer the question he is made to compete for the starting Job next year. The real fixing has to be done at Rb and on the Oline. DG has his top 15 D now he has to fix the Oline that he was hampered from fixing because of extensions and malcontents. He may still have a hard time fixing it but a top Rb to hand the ball off to will help alot. You have to remember that continuity has to be maintained and guys have to be allowed to mature. Fitz will be healthier and better, Q will be Healthy and Johnson knows now he can contribute. Bring a saftey up in the box because we can run the ball and these guys will shine. In 4 wr sets we need a burner that can stretch the field. Maybe Az Hakim will become available. I always felt he was the impact player the Rams should never have let walk. 3rd or 4th guy that can just get down the field.

 

[Duckjake]

You have to remember that continuity has to be maintained and guys have to be allowed to mature. Fitz will be healthier and better, Q will be Healthy and Johnson knows now he can contribute

Excellent point in relation to the offense. QB,C,LT,and all 3 WR's total NFL experience equals only 13 years!

Add a rookie RB, play Navarre at QB, a rookie TE, add in Wells and we could have 9 guys with a grand total of 22 years in the NFL at the END of next season. An offense that if it gels could be great together for 8 to 10 years.

 

[WildBB]

Excellent point in relation to the offense. QB,C,LT,and all 3 WR's total NFL experience equals only 13 years!

Add a rookie RB, play Navarre at QB, a rookie TE, add in Wells and we could have 9 guys with a grand total of 22 years in the NFL at the END of next season. An offense that if it gels could be great together for 8 to 10 years.

Although McCown and Navarre show promise I don't think either is the long term solution here. Each has some serious flaws in their games.

We've been waiting for a long term solution to our QB delema here ever since Lomax 's hip took a turn for the worse. Ever since we've been plugging that position with a fix up guy. We need to get serious and get a young gun in here with top notch awareness, preferably some height and a good arm. Navarre you say. We'll see. I would like to see him more, but not throw all my eggs into his basket. There's a reason he fell to the 7th round. But give me another young gun to throw into this QB mix out of the next draft, preferably in the first or second round.

Fill out the RB, OL, CB and DT positions with vets in FA!

 

[CaptTurbo]

Although McCown and Navarre show promise I don't think either is the long term solution here. Each has some serious flaws in their games.
!

WildBB that is a huge change of opinion you have had the last few weeks. Kudos to you!

 

[Russ Smith]

Read my later post because no one is answering my question ... if our Wrs did everything they were supposed to do and were wide open a great deal then why was our WR coach fired?

A lot of people are also ignoring points that I've made on QBs before ... there is no simplistic formula in when discovering when a QB is going to get it. Not all players have the same learning curve. Steve Young stunk in Tampa Bay, Jake Delhomme was mediocre everywhere that he went before Carolina, and Rich Gannon sucked in Minnesota. I don't know when or if Josh will "get it" and neither does anyone else.

I wish their was a simplistic answer to fix our horrific offense, I honestly do. However there isn't ... WE ARE NOT ONE PLAYER AWAY!! There are more things that go into the offense than just QB play (I hate to break it to some of you). I brought uo the majority of the problems with our offense after the Bills game and I was ignored until other QBs played and then everyone came to the same conclusions as me ... How can that happen?

Am I saying that we should just give Josh the starting job? No, not hardly. He did some things well (he seemed to do very well when he audibled) and he didn't do other things well. I prefer to have a vet compete with Josh for the starting job and truthfully with whats out there I'm not expecting much of an improvement (if any improvement at all). Just keep in mind Brad Johnson was the 3rd string QB FOR A REASON.

All good points. I assume Ford was fired because Green wasn't satisfied with his coaching. I don't think it was about results, Quan was hurt, Fitz and BJ were playing hurt, I don't think even Green would hold that against the coach. So I assume he just realized he and Ford weren't on the same page with respect to HOW to coach WR's.

AS to the points about there's a reason Ford was fired, and there's a reason Johnson was 3rd string. Again good points.

In that line of thinking, there's a reason the entire NFL passed on Josh twice in the draft, and 6 times on Navarre in the draft. And there's a reason Green benched Josh, and then promoted Navarre ahead of him.

THere are things NFL scouts look for in QB prospects that Josh and Navarre lacked.

Yes young QB's develop at different speeds, and many of them don't become good players.

I think the reason we're being "impatient" is pretty simple, 2 big reasons. First, we've all been through SIX YEARS of this quite recently we're tired of being told QB's mature at different speeds and this HOF guy had a bad start too.

And secondly, we have a head coach who is NOTORIOUS for his lack of patience with QB's, even with all the good QB play he had in Minnesota he changed QB's regularly until he left. The man doesn't tolerate so so play at QB, so why should we?

Josh should be back, so should Navarre, unless we draft a QB in which case one will have to go so we can get at least one veteran on the roster.

 

[Evil Ash]

All good points. I assume Ford was fired because Green wasn't satisfied with his coaching. I don't think it was about results, Quan was hurt, Fitz and BJ were playing hurt, I don't think even Green would hold that against the coach. So I assume he just realized he and Ford weren't on the same page with respect to HOW to coach WR's.

AS to the points about there's a reason Ford was fired, and there's a reason Johnson was 3rd string. Again good points.

In that line of thinking, there's a reason the entire NFL passed on Josh twice in the draft, and 6 times on Navarre in the draft. And there's a reason Green benched Josh, and then promoted Navarre ahead of him.

THere are things NFL scouts look for in QB prospects that Josh and Navarre lacked.

Yes young QB's develop at different speeds, and many of them don't become good players.

I think the reason we're being "impatient" is pretty simple, 2 big reasons. First, we've all been through SIX YEARS of this quite recently we're tired of being told QB's mature at different speeds and this HOF guy had a bad start too.

And secondly, we have a head coach who is NOTORIOUS for his lack of patience with QB's, even with all the good QB play he had in Minnesota he changed QB's regularly until he left. The man doesn't tolerate so so play at QB, so why should we?

Josh should be back, so should Navarre, unless we draft a QB in which case one will have to go so we can get at least one veteran on the roster.

I understand what you're saying in regards of patience being torn due to what happened with Jake. My point is don't give Josh the job, have him earn it. My thing is with those so obsessed with the position that they are willing to make more holes on this team just to satisfy one position.

We need help at Oline, DT, FS, TE, a deep threat at WR, depth at CB, etc. We have simply too many needs to go and get 2 qbs in one offseason. The obsession with the one position is almost mind-numbing.

Do I think we should bring Josh back? Yes, he's shown some potential and is a cheap alternative to whats available as a backup QB. Does that mean I think we should give him the starting job? No, bring in a vet or draft a QB (although I'd prefer not to have another young QB ... but if we do draft the guy, draft the guy I've been promoting since before the end of the college season, ALEX SMITH) to compete with him. I'm not saying to have complete patience and faith in Josh, I'm just saying give him another year on the roster. If he doesn't improve, he's gone and we pick a QB in next year's draft or spend a bunch of money on a FA QB ... If he does improve he stays on the roster and may become our starting QB. Who knows?

As far as the draft goes its far from a sure thing. Tom Brady was passed over 5 times by every team, Joe Montana was passed over twice, Favre passed over once. Sometimes scouts get so obsessed with size, speed, and things of that nature that they often overlook things like intelligence, instincts, etc. I remember during a TV broadcast of a Cards game earlier in year that they mentioned that half of the QBs that started that week were either 2nd day draft picks or undrafted.

What often happens on teams especially with their fans is they continually have the thought of "the grass is always greener" as it comes to other QBs. The backup Qb is the most popular person on most teams (which is why it doesn't surprise me that folks on the Broncos board would prefer Josh over Jake). Remember the "Shaun King has to be better than Josh" arguments on here? People always think that there is something better out there and more often than not, they're wrong.

I just want to end this little rant of mine with a point and a question to think about. In the latest CBS Sportsline team report on the Cardinals, it said that even if the Cards put the highest possible tender on Josh that there would still be teams attempting to sign him. So here's my question ... If Josh is that god awful and there are so many QB options out there than why would teams be willing to sacrifice a 1st and 3rd rounder to sign him? Just something to think about

/rant

 

[Rocco]

I just want to end this little rant of mine with a point and a question to think about. In the latest CBS Sportsline team report on the Cardinals, it said that even if the Cards put the highest possible tender on Josh that there would still be teams attempting to sign him. So here's my question ... If Josh is that god awful and there are so many QB options out there than why would teams be willing to sacrifice a 1st and 3rd rounder to sign him? Just something to think about

/rant

If anyone is crazy enough to give up a one and three for Josh right now then I would hand him over in a heartbeat. That's a no brainer at this point. Our crystal ball is every bit as valid as theirs.

We' re in the same boat that the Chargers were in this past offseason. Their qb hopeful (Brees) hadn't shown that he was capable of being THE GUY and only had one season left before FA. They were locked into finding an alternative before time ran out or extending a guy that may not have been worth it. We have to do the same. There is no guarantee that Josh will be the next Brees.

 

[Evil Ash]

If anyone is crazy enough to give up a one and three for Josh right now then I would hand him over in a heartbeat. That's a no brainer at this point. Our crystal ball is every bit as valid as theirs.

We' re in the same boat that the Chargers were in this past offseason. Their qb hopeful (Brees) hadn't shown that he was capable of being THE GUY and only had one season left before FA. They were locked into finding an alternative before time ran out or extending a guy that may not have been worth it. We have to do the same. There is no guarantee that Josh will be the next Brees.

I never said there was, thats why I want competition brought in. I'm just pointing out that the options that are out there aren't as good as everybody thinks.

 

[Rocco]

I never said there was, thats why I want competition brought in. I'm just pointing out that the options that are out there aren't as good as everybody thinks.

Gotcha - though there may be some pretty decent options out there. But they won't be cheap or risk-free but hey, that's the way it goes. You either pay the cost and take the risk or you hope you catch lightning in a bottle with a lower rated prospect. This team has been trying to catch lightning since Lomax. Time to try a different approach.

 

[BigRedMO]

A first and a third for McCown? Jump all over that. Check me if I am wrong but wasnt Brees a first round pick and McCown a third from nowhere university. If I am right comparing San Diego last year and Cards this year would be a bad comparison.

 

[Rocco]

A first and a third for McCown? Jump all over that. Check me if I am wrong but wasnt Brees a first round pick and McCown a third from nowhere university. If I am right comparing San Diego last year and Cards this year would be a bad comparison.

Brees was a second rounder - but even so, why is the comparison bad?

 

[BigRedMO]

I think it is a bad comparison because I do not think people were applauding that pick as the Cards franchise QB of the future. It was not a Manning or Elway type pick with all the excitement those generated. I saw it as a bargain approach to find a QB that if it worked out great and if not there was not too much invested. It sure took a long time for him to impress the coaches enough to break the starting line-up if he was the next franchise . With Brees there was excitement in San Diego from the beginning.

 

[Redsz]

Brees was torn a new one by the fans, media and everyone else in SD for years until he started to produce this year. He fell into the 2nd round for a reason, he wasn't like Peyton Manning or John Elway in which SD thought they had found their potential 'franchise' QB when they drafted him.

The reason Josh never broke into the starting line up was because of the previous coaching staff's loyality to certain players. Even with a terrible record going into the final games of the season, Coach Mac still wanted to start Jeff Blake. It was only when the Cardinals admin stepped in did McCown get a shot.

 

[Rocco]

I think it is a bad comparison because I do not think people were applauding that pick as the Cards franchise QB of the future. It was not a Manning or Elway type pick with all the excitement those generated. I saw it as a bargain approach to find a QB that if it worked out great and if not there was not too much invested. It sure took a long time for him to impress the coaches enough to break the starting line-up if he was the next franchise . With Brees there was excitement in San Diego from the beginning.

Sorry - I'm just not understanding the relevance of the draft expectations. I don't see how that matters considering the position we find ourselves in today and the Chargers position of a year ago. It's the same thing, regardless of how we both got there. If Josh was just a no big deal shot in the dark, why did we pass on Ben R and Leftwich?

Not trying to attack here - I really don't understand the point you're trying to make. Sorry again.

 

[Stout]

Sorry - I'm just not understanding the relevance of the draft expectations. I don't see how that matters considering the position we find ourselves in today and the Chargers position of a year ago. It's the same thing, regardless of how we both got there. If Josh was just a no big deal shot in the dark, why did we pass on Ben R and Leftwich?

Not trying to attack here - I really don't understand the point you're trying to make. Sorry again.

We passed on them because the organization (see Rod Graves) wanted to go cheap on the QB position, trade down and get more talent at other positions. Not only did we have to PAY to trade down, which was idiotic, we didn't make great picks.

This year, it was a done deal...Denny wanted Fitz. Simple.