Why do we assume Denny knows talent?

[slanidrac16]

I see many peolple suggesting we move Green up to the GM spot based on the increase of talent this team has acquired since he was brought on.
But why does Green automatically get credit for that? How about our scouting dept and Rod Graves? Why do with assume that when we are on the clock that Dennis Green makes the picks?
I'm sure he has some influence and imput but I can't believe he has total say or for that matter final say.
Did he select Leinart because he was so smart at evaluating talent? No. Leinart came to us by the grace of God. Did he demand that the club go after and sign the B-Train? Well, we just don't know.
Looking back would you rather have Steve Hutchinson and Chester Taylor or Edge and Brown?
We know he can't evaluate quality coaches now, don't we.
Somebody posted a thread on whether Green was good or just lucky. Much of that post pertained to the talent that came on board during his tenure with the Vikings.
I apologize for not remembering who posted it, but it opened my eyes a bit.

 

[football karma]

One small factual matter on the Hutchinson thing:

Does anybody realistically beleive that the Cardinals would have come up with the "If Hutch isnt the highest paid offensive lineman, then his whole contract becomes guaranteed" trick (and ignoring the obvious problem caused by L Davis making $9mm this year)?

While the Bidwills have come a long way in terms of spending money -- rocking the boat as it relates to circumventing the spirit of the CBA is about the last thing they would do.

In their defense, I am guessing there are about 25 other teams in the NFL that wouldnt have come up with that trick either.

 

[ActingWild]

Green does at least know how to navigate the draft. Since he's been here our drafts have been rated very very good. Graves thought passing on Suggs for Bryant Jonson and Calvin Pace was the way to go...though, he did get Boldin and Hayes in the later rounds.

Basically, I've had too many drafts go by hoping a player I like will drop to us, then he does, and we pass on them. With Green, this has not happened.

 

[earthsci]

One small factual matter on the Hutchinson thing:

Does anybody realistically beleive that the Cardinals would have come up with the "If Hutch isnt the highest paid offensive lineman, then his whole contract becomes guaranteed" trick (and ignoring the obvious problem caused by L Davis making $9mm this year)?

While the Bidwills have come a long way in terms of spending money -- rocking the boat as it relates to circumventing the spirit of the CBA is about the last thing they would do.

In their defense, I am guessing there are about 25 other teams in the NFL that wouldnt have come up with that trick either.

 

[CardinalChris]

Two things...

First think back to Mac's last draft with Graves at the helm. Pace and Johnson instead of Suggs. That reduces Grave's legitimacy in the eyes of many fans.

Second, take the talent on that team and the talent on our team now. Given those two constraints, it is a safe assumption to give Green quite a bit of credit for the improved talent on this team.

 

[RedForeman]

Because Denny re-focused this organization on the best player available approach. As a result, they have stopped reaching so much, especially in the first 3 rounds.

 

[john h]

I see many peolple suggesting we move Green up to the GM spot based on the increase of talent this team has acquired since he was brought on.
But why does Green automatically get credit for that? How about our scouting dept and Rod Graves? Why do with assume that when we are on the clock that Dennis Green makes the picks?
I'm sure he has some influence and imput but I can't believe he has total say or for that matter final say.
Did he select Leinart because he was so smart at evaluating talent? No. Leinart came to us by the grace of God. Did he demand that the club go after and sign the B-Train? Well, we just don't know.
Looking back would you rather have Steve Hutchinson and Chester Taylor or Edge and Brown?
We know he can't evaluate quality coaches now, don't we.
Somebody posted a thread on whether Green was good or just lucky. Much of that post pertained to the talent that came on board during his tenure with the Vikings.
I apologize for not remembering who posted it, but it opened my eyes a bit.

I think Denny put together this offensive line. Is that talent. I certainly would not want him as GM if he cannot function as a Manager. He would be sending those Denny messages which help get us where we are. We need a GM who has been a GM and who is given the powers of of a GM to hire and fire and select players. Might also help to give him a budget comparable to the rest of the NFL teams.

 

[Goldfield]

Our drafts have been ALOOOOOOOTTTT better than b4 he was here. Also his freeagent pickups have been pretty solid.

In the past it seemed like ANYONE we dafted or signed never made any kind of impact.

 

[Russ Smith]

Because VF told us over and over he did?

I think Green recognizes talent at certain positions and not others. His approach on the OL clearly isn't working anymore, but he sure has improved the talent on the roster I'll give him that.

I'm starting to waver on my earlier prediction that Green is out after Green Bay. I still think that's probably what happens but I'm now 75-25 I am starting to think the Cards may just let him ride out the year so they only have to do a coaching search once, and in the hope Green turns things around. I don't expect he will.

It may be they checked, weren't satisfied with any interim options and just decided to stay with green, I just get the feeling now they're less likely to axe him next week.

 

[AZCB34]

I posted this on another thread...

It is always perspective. Everyone lavishes alot of praises about how much more talented the Cards are since Denny arrived but it also pays to emind all just where the talent level started before Denny...and that was bottom of the barrel in talent.

Denny really had nowhere to go but up talentwise with this team. I would offer that his drafts have been about average (the key to his drafts is he makes the right picks which always grades him out high) and his FA signings have been about average too.

The holes on this team are still pretty significant. I mean this is where I see holes:

C
2 G's
2 T's
TE
DE (although I guess I am willing to let this one drop but I feel it can be improved)
OLB
MLB (maybe, if Hayes leaves which he might)
CB
S

FS can be handled by sliding Rolle over and getting a cover type corner.

SO, in the end, the talent has been improved but only marginally and given proper perspective, the improvement may not be nearly as impressive as some want to make it.

 

[KANIDJA]

I posted this on another thread...

It is always perspective. Everyone lavishes alot of praises about how much more talented the Cards are since Denny arrived but it also pays to emind all just where the talent level started before Denny...and that was bottom of the barrel in talent.

Denny really had nowhere to go but up talentwise with this team. I would offer that his drafts have been about average (the key to his drafts is he makes the right picks which always grades him out high) and his FA signings have been about average too.

The holes on this team are still pretty significant. I mean this is where I see holes:

C
2 G's
2 T's
TE
DE (although I guess I am willing to let this one drop but I feel it can be improved)
OLB
MLB (maybe, if Hayes leaves which he might)
CB
S

FS can be handled by sliding Rolle over and getting a cover type corner.

SO, in the end, the talent has been improved but only marginally and given proper perspective, the improvement may not be nearly as impressive as some want to make it.

and off course you want all pro bowlers at those poitions. You can't tell me he didn't upgrade the talent pool, dramatically, since he got here. Only O line need drastic changes.

 

[CardNots]

I have been really thinking about how good our talent really is. Yes, we do have a lot of name players but the bottom line is we are 1-6 and lost to the worst team in the NFL. Not two long ago the worst team in the league had two wins and both were against us. All this agruably makes us the worst team in the NFL.

I keep hearing about how talented this team is, but we are 1-6. Are we really running at a high talent level or just higher than we have been used to in the past?

 

[BACH]

I see many peolple suggesting we move Green up to the GM spot based on the increase of talent this team has acquired since he was brought on.
But why does Green automatically get credit for that? How about our scouting dept and Rod Graves? Why do with assume that when we are on the clock that Dennis Green makes the picks?
I'm sure he has some influence and imput but I can't believe he has total say or for that matter final say.
Did he select Leinart because he was so smart at evaluating talent? No. Leinart came to us by the grace of God. Did he demand that the club go after and sign the B-Train? Well, we just don't know.
Looking back would you rather have Steve Hutchinson and Chester Taylor or Edge and Brown?
We know he can't evaluate quality coaches now, don't we.
Somebody posted a thread on whether Green was good or just lucky. Much of that post pertained to the talent that came on board during his tenure with the Vikings.
I apologize for not remembering who posted it, but it opened my eyes a bit.

I think Green has made a difference, BUT not in the way people think.

Steve Keim doesn't get any credit for the recent draft, eventhough he has been in charge of the evaluation process. There was an article way back that explained the situation (Last year's draft?).
Eventhough Keim didn't become Head of the Scouting Department until this season,he has been running the department in years on a daily basis. Keim has been mentioned in the national media as a top 3 scout in the league and a hot candidate to become GM. The last 4 drafts have all been "Keim drafts". Keim's responsibility area was the south-east (SEC & ACC), and look who we have drafted. Pace, Pope, Boldin, King, Dansby, Dockett, Green, Rolle, Blackstock and Elton. All Keim players!

Keim is responsible for the improvement in evaluation, but Green has given our draftroom a counterweight, because Green questions Keim's decisions much more than Graves and Mac,and THAT is why our drafts have improved.

 

[Duckjake]

Maybe Green is very good at picking skill position players but doesn't do as well with the Madden guys, special team players, role players etc.

But if you look back at rosters the past 20 years that's been true almost every year. Seldom if ever have they fielded a decent offensive line, and since Awalt and Novacek left in '89 there have been arguably only 2 decent TE's Gedney and FJones.

Walter Reeves started for 4. Then they trotted out, Butch Rolle, Tim Jorden, Derek Ware, Wendall Gaines and Oscar McBride, Pat Carter, Tywan Mitchell, Johnny McWilliams, Terry Hardy, Steve Bush, Eric Edwards, Adam Bergen and Fred Wakefield.

Do the Cardinal scouts just not know how to identify guys who can block?

 

[HookemCards]

I think Green has made a difference, BUT not in the way people think.

Steve Keim doesn't get any credit for the recent draft, eventhough he has been in charge of the evaluation process. There was an article way back that explained the situation (Last year's draft?).
Eventhough Keim didn't become Head of the Scouting Department until this season,he has been running the department in years on a daily basis. Keim has been mentioned in the national media as a top 3 scout in the league and a hot candidate to become GM. The last 4 drafts have all been "Keim drafts". Keim responsibility area was the south-east (SEC & ACC), and look who we have drafted Pace, Boldin, King, Dansby, Dockett, Green, Rolle, Blackstock and Elton. All Keim players!

Keim is responsible for the improvement in evaluation, but Green has given our draftroom a counterweight, because Green questions Keim's decisions much more than Graves and Mac, which has improved our drafts.

I agree. If the Bidwills decide to hire a GM, this is where they should start there search. Keep Graves around to negotiate contracts I guess, but to me Keim is the perfect choice for GM. Given our current coaching staff no way do promote Green and have him hire HC, and OC, DC.

 

[AZCB34]

and off course you want all pro bowlers at those poitions. You can't tell me he didn't upgrade the talent pool, dramatically, since he got here. Only O line need drastic changes.

Of course I want Pro Bowlers at all those positions...don't you?

I have always said Denny has improved the tealent on this team but given where the team was when he took over, he had nowhere to go but up. I just don't think he is as great as people think. His drafts haven't been all that great given the draft day grades he got (I acknowledge he makes the right picks generally and that is the most important thing0 and I also give alot of leeway because the draft is inexact.

If you think the OL is the only place that needs oiverhauling, then get ready for another losing season. This team has alot of oither holes that need mending, either through coaching up or repllacing players.

 

[AZCB34]

To clarify a point, when I say Denny "makes the right picks" I mean he makes the right choices in the guys he drafts based on real value of a player and doesn't "reach" for a guy like Graves seems to have a tendency to do. Thus when those post draft grades come out and he gets high marks but then the reality of the draft pitfalls comes in and shows the true colors of the players drafted...which isn't really a huge blemish on Green's talent evaluation but rather just a cold hard truth about the draft...it is very, very, very inexact.

Again, I think Green gets elevated too far on his talent evaluation abilities and he gets way more props for his getting talent on this team given where it was when he got here. Cards are more talented but OL is far from the only weak point.

 

[conraddobler]

To clarify a point, when I say Denny "makes the right picks" I mean he makes the right choices in the guys he drafts based on real value of a player and doesn't "reach" for a guy like Graves seems to have a tendency to do. Thus when those post draft grades come out and he gets high marks but then the reality of the draft pitfalls comes in and shows the true colors of the players drafted...which isn't really a huge blemish on Green's talent evaluation but rather just a cold hard truth about the draft...it is very, very, very inexact.

Again, I think Green gets elevated too far on his talent evaluation abilities and he gets way more props for his getting talent on this team given where it was when he got here. Cards are more talented but OL is far from the only weak point.

To over simplify the matter, what it basically boils down to is that Green dosen't stink at drafting players.

He gets value, the team improves, sometimes he messes up, sometimes he does alright, a few times he hits a home run.

It only looks amazing in contrast to our usual total ineptitude in drafting.

 

[Russ Smith]

My issue with how Green drafts is that he takes a lot of players that "slide". Sometimes he gets great value, sometimes he gets Elton Brown and finds out why he slid.

 

[AZCB34]

To over simplify the matter, what it basically boils down to is that Green dosen't stink at drafting players.

He gets value, the team improves, sometimes he messes up, sometimes he does alright, a few times he hits a home run.

It only looks amazing in contrast to our usual total ineptitude in drafting.

Exactly...he doesn't pull a Graves on draft day.

It also looks amazing since when he got here, the cupboard was about as bare as a NFL cupboard could be...thus, everyone thinks Denny is a "great" talent evaluator.

 

[AZCB34]

My issue with how Green drafts is that he takes a lot of players that "slide". Sometimes he gets great value, sometimes he gets Elton Brown and finds out why he slid.

I think Denny gets enamored with the slide guys because he feels like he is getting alot of value for the pick and he believes in his ability to rein in whatever it is that caused the player to slide in the first place. It is a trickier business (real feast or famine stuff) but when you hit right, it is amazing...problem is, you are more likely to whiff totally on these since it is hard to change people.

 

[Bobcat]

Just look what he has brought in to this franchise. The only place that he hasn't done well on is th OL. Yes we do suffer for it, but what a future this team has for the future. WOW. Stop blaming DG. It is the Players not him.

BOBCAT

 

[AZCB34]

Just look what he has brought in to this franchise. The only place that he hasn't done well on is th OL. Yes we do suffer for it, but what a future this team has for the future. WOW. Stop blaming DG. It is the Players not him.

BOBCAT

Ummm...I think you are posting to the wrong thread here. Nobody is blaming Denny for anything here...in fact I think alot of people are siding with the guy on alot of this stuff.

 

[Pariah]

It is the Players not him.

BOBCAT

You mean the very same players you just lauded him for bringing in?

 

[Bobcat]

You mean the very same players you just lauded him for bringing in?

DG is a good coach...!!! That is all I am trying to say. I am not being negative about anything. and just for you. In the last 5.5 years we have become a people who can find fault with everything, and not much good about anything.

Maybe this loosing will give these young players some character so when they start to win they will remember where they came from, and won't regress.

BOBCAT