Why is everyone selling out Amare?

[cly2tw]

when will amare need another surgery? how many years from now?

15 years from now.

 

[dodie53]

15 years?
ok..
=)

 

[OldDirtMcGirt]

when will amare need another surgery? how many years from now?

Probably three or four years.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Skorp isn't an expert?

The medical people said it takes two years to recover from microfracture. The long list of disasters including Penny to name our most famous example bode very ill. Perhaps he'd play, but to play at Penny Hardaway level isn't much.

I'm not very good at searching back, but after the second surgery there were a lot of "quotes" from the media expressing doubts about whether Amare could come back.

yeah, I don't remember any of those quotes. Sure, people probably wondered at what level of effectiveness Amare would comeback to play this year, but to say that MOST experts belleved he wouldn't be able to play PERIOD is just making stuff up... as usual. Especially in the face of Kidd and Randolph being the closest examples of stars coming back from micro-fracture and being able to put together decent seasons.

 

[mribnik]

yeah, I don't remember any of those quotes. Sure, people probably wondered at what level of effectiveness Amare would comeback to play this year, but to say that MOST experts belleved he wouldn't be able to play PERIOD is just making stuff up... as usual. Especially in the face of Kidd and Randolph being the closest examples of stars coming back from micro-fracture and being able to put together decent seasons.

I can't believe it's not mentioned more, but nobody ever talks about Kevin Johnson's microfracture surgery. He had it in the offseason and came back to start the next season with no problems. Did he ever have to have the surgery again? I had no idea about this until I read this article earlier in the year...

http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/story/50365

 

[Covert Rain]

Let's just say that there is a reason why Amare doesn't guard Duncan unless he absolutely has to.

Again, I would like to see KG's numbers against Duncan. Have seen no indication in the games that I watch the KG does any better.

I think that you're overlooking how much Amare in foul trouble hurt our chances in the series. You can chalk that one up to immaturity and mediocre defense as well.

That's any player. Look how ineffective Duncan was in game 3 when he was in foul trouble. Again, your not trading Kwame Brown for KG. If that was the case I make the trade tomorrow. I have seen nothing out of KG his entire career that would convince me swapping him for Amare gets us a title.

 

[nashman]

While Garnett is a great talent, Amare is very young and already is as talented why would we trade him? And I am sorry but Garnett is not tough and Duncun will eat him alive as he does most. No deal for KG should include Amare, Nash, anyone else maybe...

 

[OldDirtMcGirt]

Again, I would like to see KG's numbers against Duncan. Have seen no indication in the games that I watch the KG does any better.

Garnett outscores, outrebounds, and outassists Duncan head to head.

That's any player. Look how ineffective Duncan was in game 3 when he was in foul trouble. Again, your not trading Kwame Brown for KG. If that was the case I make the trade tomorrow. I have seen nothing out of KG his entire career that would convince me swapping him for Amare gets us a title.

And Duncan was only in foul trouble for one game. Duncan is smarter, a much better defender, a much better rebounder, and a much better passer. How can you not see the improvement?

 

[Treesquid PhD]

For what it's worth, I think that Barbosa choked something awful, and wouldn't miss him one bit. The only reason that I'd be hesitant to trade him is that he's one of the few Suns with a friendly contract.

And as a ***** headed guy with tatoos myself, I've got nothing against Amare. I'm still not sure how you could possibly argue that Amare is better than Garnett. Garnett is worlds ahead of him defensively, a much better rebounder, a much better passer, and can score consistently. The only thing he falls short in is free throw attempts.

While Amare might be a stud, Garnett is one of the top five power forwards of all time and a sure fire HOFer.

No doubt, but Garnett is also an old 31/32, so you are really moving a player with the potential to be on Garnett's level someday soon for a guy who is not going to be beginning his decline very soon if not now. Generally when someone says to be X player is a hall of famer, it means they used to be really awesome for many years, but now they are either retired or old, so are Garnett's best years behind him? I think it's a valid question, since the player types you are switiching are playing the same spot in this offense.

I also think KG's trade value is at it's peak right now, so you will be paying top dollar in players for Garnett and will never recapture what you give up for him down the road and it's a sure bet he will be 20-35% of your salary cap. Now you pair him with Nash who is also old in basketball terms. Why not do some leveraging instead of putting all your stars in the +30 club?

Having all older superstars is a sure fire way to be medicore to really bad in 3-5 years and that will last at least another 3-5, as we have seen in many instances, such as Boston, LA, and even mid 1990's Phoenix. With Amare, if a title doesn't come in the next two years, well he is still what 26? He will likely have tremndous value at that point, trade him then if you like. But I do not see Garnett as a vast upgrade from Amare and considering the negatives he brings in terms of age, baggage and contract, I say no. Not because Amare is the untouchable god of basketball, but because I think his game is devloping fast enough and broad enough to where it's the system that needs tweaks and not the players. I would like to see the offense run more for his game as opposed to Bell and Barbosa and Marion launching 14 threes a night. I just really believe the Suns can beat San Antonio with this approach with these players.

You are right about Barbosa, he is cheap and he is damn good IMO. I see him being almost untouchable from a FO perspective.

 

[Covert Rain]

Garnett outscores, outrebounds, and outassists Duncan head to head.

B.S. Show me the stats. There is especially no way the human twig out rebounds Duncan.

Every head to head game I have seen them play, KG gets worked.

And Duncan was only in foul trouble for one game. Duncan is smarter, a much better defender, a much better rebounder, and a much better passer. How can you not see the improvement?

Because I have seen KG play Duncan straight up and I am not impressed. Bottom line you can't trade for a guy on his way out in a few years for a guy not even at his prime and considered one of the rising stars in this league. KG is not going to get any better on Duncan. So as long as Duncan is playing, KG gets us no closer to a title. So that makes the trade even dumber.

 

[Ollie]

B.S. Show me the stats. There is especially no way the human twig out rebounds Duncan.

KG stats

Jan 3vs. SAS W 103-101 27pts 17 rbds 7asts 3blks

Dec 13@ SAS L 82-95 19pts 12 rbds 5asts 1blk

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/kevin_garnett/game_by_game_stats.html

TD stats

Jan 3@ MIN L 101-103 24 pts 13rbds 5asts 5blks

Dec 13vs. MIN W 95-82 24 pts 5rbds 3asts 2blks

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/tim_duncan/game_by_game_stats.html


Garnett took 11 more rebounds over 2 games...

 

[Covert Rain]

KG stats

Jan 3vs. SAS W 103-101 27pts 17 rbds 7asts 3blks

Dec 13@ SAS L 82-95 19pts 12 rbds 5asts 1blk

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/kevin_garnett/game_by_game_stats.html

TD stats

Jan 3@ MIN L 101-103 24 pts 13rbds 5asts 5blks

Dec 13vs. MIN W 95-82 24 pts 5rbds 3asts 2blks

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/tim_duncan/game_by_game_stats.html


Garnett took 11 more rebounds over 2 games...

2 games over 9 seasons? Hardly a sample.

 

[Ollie]

Well, sorry but I have other passions in life than collecting boxscores of MIN-SAS games.

But I'd happily cut and paste another scoring lines if you could show me where I'm supposed to find them, oh wise one.

 

[dodie53]

right now,
i think KG is better than amare..

but please don't trade amare..

 

[OldDirtMcGirt]

B.S. Show me the stats. There is especially no way the human twig out rebounds Duncan.

Every head to head game I have seen them play, KG gets worked.

I could only find stats for the most recent season (which is what matters most anyways). Garnett had 22.4 PPG compared to Duncan's 20.0, Garnett had 12.8 RPG compared to Duncan's 12.6, and Garnett had 4.1 APG compared to Duncan's 3.4.

The fact is that Tim Duncan cannot be contained by just one player. There is nobody in the league capable of doing it. Amare can't even guard Duncan throughout the majority of a game because he'd only play 20 minutes because of foul trouble. Garnett can at least stand toe to toe to Duncan and match his production which is all that's necessary. Plus, his jumpshooting is great against the Spurs who always leave the midrange jumper open. He can draw Duncan out of the paint and spread out their defense to open up more dribble penetration, and he also commands more double teams than Amare and can pass better out of those double teams.

EDIT: Oh, and it should be pointed out that Garnett is almost exactly the same size Duncan is, just a little bit taller.

 

[OldDirtMcGirt]

And here are the full stats for each of their careers:

Kevin Garnett versus San Antonio: 23.0 PPG, 14.5 RPG, 6.0 APG

Tim Duncan versus Minnesota: 20.0 PPG, 9.3 RPG, 3.3 APG

Pretty convincing on who gets the upper hand.

 

[slinslin]

You forgot Kevin Garnett was shooting 39%.

And KG was playing 43mpg while Duncan was playing 34mpg.

 

[Mainstreet]

I could only find stats for the most recent season (which is what matters most anyways). Garnett had 22.4 PPG compared to Duncan's 20.0, Garnett had 12.8 RPG compared to Duncan's 12.6, and Garnett had 4.1 APG compared to Duncan's 3.4.

The fact is that Tim Duncan cannot be contained by just one player. There is nobody in the league capable of doing it. Amare can't even guard Duncan throughout the majority of a game because he'd only play 20 minutes because of foul trouble. Garnett can at least stand toe to toe to Duncan and match his production which is all that's necessary. Plus, his jumpshooting is great against the Spurs who always leave the midrange jumper open. He can draw Duncan out of the paint and spread out their defense to open up more dribble penetration, and he also commands more double teams than Amare and can pass better out of those double teams.

EDIT: Oh, and it should be pointed out that Garnett is almost exactly the same size Duncan is, just a little bit taller.

I'm not sure what all this means except Duncan is better than Garnett in spite of the stats.

 

[Covert Rain]

You forgot Kevin Garnett was shooting 39%.

And KG was playing 43mpg while Duncan was playing 34mpg.

Good point. Not to mention that what those stats fail to point out is how often they were NOT matched up against each other. Assuming they were matched up 99% (yeah right) of the time against each other, there is still nothing there to convince me KG would give us a better shot at a title.

 

[azirish]

I think the fact that KG plays on a crap team disguises just how good he is. Statistically, he's certainly a load: 22.4 ppg (47.6%), 12.8 rpg, 4.1 assists per game, and 1.7 blocks per game. He doesn't have the range of Dirk, but is an excellant mid range shooter who is far better in the low post than Dirk. With his length, he's a much better straight on shot blocker than Amare who gets almost all his blocks from the weak side.

Obviously, the issue is not who would do better in a single series but overall value. Amare did not just luck into first team All NBA and he's much younger.

 

[Covert Rain]

I think the fact that KG plays on a crap team disguises just how good he is. Statistically, he's certainly a load: 22.4 ppg (47.6%), 12.8 rpg, 4.1 assists per game, and 1.7 blocks per game. He doesn't have the range of Dirk, but is an excellant mid range shooter who is far better in the low post than Dirk. With his length, he's a much better straight on shot blocker than Amare who gets almost all his blocks from the weak side.

Obviously, the issue is not who would do better in a single series but overall value. Amare did not just luck into first team All NBA and he's much younger.

Really, because I think it highlights it. The reverse is always argued as well that sometimes being the best player on your team makes you look better then you are. I think KG is legit but he wouldn't be a savior coming here if you subtract Amare.

 

[OldDirtMcGirt]

Good point. Not to mention that what those stats fail to point out is how often they were NOT matched up against each other. Assuming they were matched up 99% (yeah right) of the time against each other, there is still nothing there to convince me KG would give us a better shot at a title.

Garnett would always guard Duncan (unless it was the very beginning of both of their careers and they put Garnett on D-Rob which I doubt), and Duncan obviously would guard Garnett because Garnett is the only inside presence on the Timberwolves and Duncan was their best interior defenders.

As for the shooting percentage, that's just because Garnett had nobody else on his team. Everytime a player plays for Phoenix, their shooting percentage goes up.

I'm still not sure how you can say we aren't better off with Garnett. Garnett outperforms Duncan head-to-head and he's a better player than Amare. This stuff is pretty much indisputable, so I'm not sure where you're getting the "we won't be better" bit.

 

[Covert Rain]

I'm still not sure how you can say we aren't better off with Garnett. Garnett outperforms Duncan head-to-head and he's a better player than Amare. This stuff is pretty much indisputable, so I'm not sure where you're getting the "we won't be better" bit.

Because you make it sound like KG is getting traded for a stiff power forward/center. The difference is not GREAT. The difference is not like the Grand Canyon. The "bit" is would KG minus Amare be GOOD ENOUGH to get us a title. In short no. I could buy the argument we might be a "bit" better but not good enough. So why make a dumb trade like that trading away an emerging superstar for an aging veteran and hurt the team in the long run?

 

[OldDirtMcGirt]

Because you make it sound like KG is getting traded for a stiff power forward/center. The difference is not GREAT. The difference is not like the Grand Canyon. The "bit" is would KG minus Amare be GOOD ENOUGH to get us a title. In short no. I could buy the argument we might be a "bit" better but not good enough. So why make a dumb trade like that trading away an emerging superstar for an aging veteran and hurt the team in the long run?

I guess we just disagree on what it takes to win a title. I think that if Amare was able to guard Duncan one on one and not get into foul trouble, as well as put up 23 and 14, then we would beat the Spurs.

And the reason is the same reason why Miami traded for Shaq. Even though Miami is overloaded with bad veteran contracts and diminishing players, at least they won a ring. I'd glady take five years of rebuilding for a gamble at the championship.

EDIT: However, I will concede that there is no way this trade happens because Sarver won't pay any extra, so it is kind of irrelevant.

 

[Covert Rain]

I guess we just disagree on what it takes to win a title. I think that if Amare was able to guard Duncan one on one and not get into foul trouble, as well as put up 23 and 14, then we would beat the Spurs.

And the reason is the same reason why Miami traded for Shaq. Even though Miami is overloaded with bad veteran contracts and diminishing players, at least they won a ring. I'd glady take five years of rebuilding for a gamble at the championship.

EDIT: However, I will concede that there is no way this trade happens because Sarver won't pay any extra, so it is kind of irrelevant.

No we don't disagree on what it takes to win a title. What we disagree on is that replacing KG for Amare is what would get it done.

Agree that it never gets done.