Why Plummer will succeed in Denver where Arizona failed him...

[Taco John]

Originally posted by Wild Card
TJ:

No, the Cardinals didn't have a consistent offensive line last year.

No, it wasn't close to the Chiefs and Raiders in terms of pass protection (#8 and tied for #15 in sacks allowed, with 26 and 36, respectively). However, with 41 sacks allowed, the Cardinals did rank higher, at #21, than the Broncos did, with 46, at #27.

Any other questions?

WC

No. That's pretty much all that I've got on the subject...

What you guys aren't realizing is that this question has context for this discussion and ones that I've had in the past regarding Griese... I think both quarterbacks suffered from the lack of decent offensive line protection, and that both require that protection in order to be effective.

A perfect example is Trent Green, who I would rate equally with Jake and Brian... The guy can't make a downfield read to save his life under pressure, but given rock solid blind side protection he is able to take his time and look downfield to find the open guy... Often he won't have the confidence to make the throw to the open guy, so he'll dump it off to Priest underneath. The point is, it works for him. Once they gave him protection, he started to manage the offense better, and ran the highest scoring offense in the league.

Brian was one of the highest rated passers last year, with a record of 7-3, until we lost our left guard. We then had to do a shuffle on our offensive line that sent us on a skid that we weren't able to recover from... Like many of you, our fans blamed the quarterback for not being able to make it all happen on his own... He is, afterall, being paid a lot of money (as if money is a factor on the field of play... maybe Jake was supposed to pay off the defensive linemen?)

Part of the problem with our high sack count, however, falls directly on Griese's inability to consistently step up into the pocket. Jake's mobility should pay dividends for us there...

I submit that if the Cards don't improve their offensive line, you are going to have the same problems with Blake that you had with Jake.

 

[Taco John]

Ah yeah... Things are cooking now

 

[Russ Smith]

Originally posted by Taco John
Yes. Every quarterback makes mistakes. But football is a game of probability. The probability of your quarterback making mistakes raises significantly when the guys in front of him aren't doing their jobs. There is a significant cause and effect relationship involved, because it's a team sport...

But how you react to those mistakes is what makes or breaks a QB no?

Look at the no look flip against the Raiders last year, Shipp ran the wrong way on the handoff, so Jake could either take off and run, or eat the ball. Most Qb's eat the ball. Jake is so competitive that he refuses to do that even when it's the smart move, so instead he blindly flips the ball and the Raiders get it and score a TD a minute later. Yes Shipp made a mistake but the TO was because of how JAKE handled that mistake.

That's why when people say Jake is fiery, a competitor, that's what the Broncos need, I warn them. Most of his mistakes are a DIRECT result of that part of his personality. he simply can't accept that sometimes a sack or throwaway is the BEST play.

To make an analogy if you approaches stocks the way Jake does football you'd go bankrupt because you'd never be willing to sell at a loss to avoid further losses.

Jeff BLake spent years on bad teams with guys screwing up around him but HE handled it differently. That's why we're all glad to have him now, he's been in this situation before and demonstrated he could deal with it.

 

[SECTION 11]

Originally posted by Russ Smith
Unfortunately he'd too often throw it into coverage instead of away when the rush got there

The arm stregnth to throw it away effectively just isn't there.
He was trying to throw it away in Dallas, and it went about 20 yards right to Coakley. It was boggling. One of the worst plays / decisions I have ever seen by an NFL QB. Hell, by a college QB. A horrible decision compounded by a weak arm.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by Russ Smith
But how you react to those mistakes is what makes or breaks a QB no?

Look at the no look flip against the Raiders last year, Shipp ran the wrong way on the handoff, so Jake could either take off and run, or eat the ball. Most Qb's eat the ball. Jake is so competitive that he refuses to do that even when it's the smart move, so instead he blindly flips the ball and the Raiders get it and score a TD a minute later. Yes Shipp made a mistake but the TO was because of how JAKE handled that mistake.

That's why when people say Jake is fiery, a competitor, that's what the Broncos need, I warn them. Most of his mistakes are a DIRECT result of that part of his personality. he simply can't accept that sometimes a sack or throwaway is the BEST play.

To make an analogy if you approaches stocks the way Jake does football you'd go bankrupt because you'd never be willing to sell at a loss to avoid further losses.

Jeff BLake spent years on bad teams with guys screwing up around him but HE handled it differently. That's why we're all glad to have him now, he's been in this situation before and demonstrated he could deal with it.

Great post Russ. Frankly I'm annoyed by this guy, he knows diddly squat about our team and the Jake Plummer situation.

99% of Jake's problems were due to his inability to take a loss, throw the ball away, or look for another open target.

Post this on your fricking board Taco boy:
I said it last season if the Cards brought Plummer back, I would quit going to games.

 

[Wild Card]

Originally posted by Taco John
I think you'd have to be pretty ignorant of the game to think that any quarterback doesn't need great protection to be consistent/productive... But maybe that's just me...

TJ:

Yeah, it's just you.

Pocket-passer types with limited mobility, like the guy you just got rid of, do need at least some protection to be productive. The faster they make their reads and deliver the ball, the less time they need (in his prime, Dan Marino was the poster boy for this style). But they still need some.

On the other hand, any Bronco fan who watched John Elway play knows that some QBs don't need great pass protection to be effective. Current QBs with similar skills, like Donovan McNabb and Michael Vick, make mediocre o-lines look better than they are.

The only reasonable argument for Plummer being a better fit in Denver than Griese is Jake's presumed ability to escape pressure and make plays. It's circular logic to say that his poor career stats in Arizona were due to lack of protection. If that's the kind of quarterback Plummer is, then he's no improvement over Griese.

And the Broncos won't be any better.

WC

 

[Brian in Mesa]

I have faith in Jake Plummer.




















I believe he will perform in Denver about the same that he performed in Arizona. I think Denver will have less patience than Arizona did. I don't see Denver waiting 6 years hoping the guy can learn to better read NFL defenses.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by Wild Card


And the Broncos won't be any better.

WC

Oh they aren't better, they're significantly worse.

I would have traded Jake Plummer and a draft pick to the Broncos in a heartbeat. Hell I would traded Jake for a bucket of Church's chicken and a 6 pack of Pabst Blue Ribbon.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by Brian in Mesa
I have faith in Jake Plummer.




















I believe he will perform in Denver about the same that he performed in Arizona. I think Denver will have less patience than Arizona did. I don't see Denver waiting 6 years hoping the guy can learn to better read NFL defenses.

See the main criticism that I have for the Cards about Jake, is that they didn't cut ties quick enough.

 

[Taco John]

Originally posted by Wild Card
On the other hand, any Bronco fan who watched John Elway play knows that some QBs don't need great pass protection to be effective.

You are an idiot if you believe that... John Elway needed pocket protection... And he finally got it... Not long after that, he finally got two Superbowl wins.

 

[SECTION 11]

Originally posted by Taco John
You are an idiot if you believe that... John Elway needed pocket protection... And he finally got it... Not long after that, he finally got two Superbowl wins.

Terrell Davis. Once he established himself all Elway had to do was not turn it over. Ya know, make better decisions and cut down on his mistakes.

 

[Brian in Mesa]

Taco John -

You can at least admit that you have no idea how Jake will do for the Broncos this season, right? It's all speculation, on your part and on ours.

Many of us here have watched Jake play in every game he played as a Sun Devil and as a Cardinals' player, so what we say is at least from experience and not off the cuff.

I am glad that you have faith in the coaches and players surrounding Jake, and a real passion for your team in general.

Just don't be surprised if you're visiting us midway through the season asking where we serve crow.

 

[Taco John]

Apparently you guys are only comfortable in your own backyard...


Chargers fan is the same way... They've been such an inept franchise in the AFC West for so long that the thought of running it on other boards makes them weak in the knees... They're afraid they'll run into some resistance... Like someone won't think that their team is as great as they think it is or something...

Is there a Cardinals board with some dudes that have the stones to represent?

 

[Krangodnzr]

Frankly John, we're not coming to Orange Mane because this topic has been beaten to death for six years.

Fans can only take so much, before we're sick and tired of talking about something.

As Brian said, many of us have watched Jake for TEN YEARS. We know Jake much better than any Bronco fan.

 

[Brian in Mesa]

Originally posted by Taco John
Like someone won't think that their team is as great as they think it is or something...[/B]

Awfully cocky.

NFL Championships:

Cardinals 2
Broncos 2

It's a wash.

 

[SECTION 11]

Originally posted by Taco John
Apparently you guys are only comfortable in your own backyard...


Chargers fan is the same way... They've been such an inept franchise in the AFC West for so long that the thought of running it on other boards makes them weak in the knees... They're afraid they'll run into some resistance... Like someone won't think that their team is as great as they think it is or something...

Is there a Cardinals board with some dudes that have the stones to represent?

I know I for one have always been scared of message boards.
You won't find me anywhere else discussing the Cardinals.
Nope. Too traumatic.


You need better bait. The wrigglers aren't working.

 

[Taco John]

Originally posted by Brian in Mesa
Awfully cocky.

NFL Championships:

Cardinals 2
Broncos 2

It's a wash.

You must know something that I don't...

 

[Taco John]

Originally posted by SECTION 11
I know I for one have always been scared of message boards.
You won't find me anywhere else discussing the Cardinals.
Nope. Too traumatic.


You need better bait. The wrigglers aren't working.

I saw you at the Chiefs board, where it was obvious you weren't going to get much resistance... But even then, you were too afraid to come run the same anti-Jake/Bronco smack on a Broncos forum... :roll:

 

[bratwurst]

Originally posted by Taco John

I don't want your hollow stats. I want a yes or no answer to my question... Yes we've had a very consistent offensive line, or no we didn't have a very consistent offensive line?

you don't want hollow stats? What the hell do you think started this whole thing?

"Jake played in 84 games in Arizona, and the Cardinals out rushed the other team a total of 23 times. These are Jakes stats in those games.

Record 19-4

506 comp / 703 att 31 td's 18 int's 4,993 yds

That's a quarterback rating of 91.7"
http://www.orangemane.com/BB/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4714

Come back in December when Jake has shown you his skills at playing catch with the other teams linebackers for a full season.

 

[SECTION 11]

Originally posted by Taco John
I saw you at the Chiefs board, where it was obvious you weren't going to get much resistance... But even then, you were too afraid to come run the same anti-Jake/Bronco smack on a Broncos forum... :roll:

I've already made my introductions on the Huddle board, Bronco Freak, NFL World, Eagles.com (there's an understanding bunch), Extreme Skins, Rams.com, the Bear Report, blah, blah, blah.

We've covered this topic for six years. Many people have been following Plummer since his ASU days (where the five yard slant and the underthrown deep ball were his trade mark... shocking).

You've watched him for all of three games, so I'm sure you're looking for some more insight that you can deflect with your armored suit of homerism.

 

[SECTION 11]

Originally posted by Taco John
too afraid

Hilarious.

 

[spanky]

Mr. Tacky,

You made a comment that football is a game of probabilities. If you truely believe this then the QB position is PROBABLY going to be Denver's weakest link.

You see,we who have seen Plummer operate for the last 5-6 years, PROBABLY witnessed the most inept performance of any starting QB in the league. He PROBABLY will suffer the same fate in Denver.

Why do I think this...........well it's PROBABLY becuz I had 5-6 years of experience watching him in AZ. Don't kid yourself, the Denver Broncos were not a hell of a lot better than we were last year............you'll PROBABLY be just as disappointed in him as we are. While a VERY likeable fellow, he's just not a good QB at all.

 

[SECTION 11]

I've been reading that thread, and I haven't seen anything other than a bunch of retards bagging on the Cardinals. Talk about Homers. Not one point has been debated. So 9+ years of following Plummer is all negated because they went 5-11 last year? Brilliant.

 

[Jersey Girl]

Only time will tell how Jake does in Denver, but I'd wager he'll do just as well/poorly as he did in AZ.

What caught my eye was a post on the Denver board saying that Jake would throw less than 10 interceptions. I have to agree ... that is, if he meant per game and not per season. I think we all know that Jake was good for at least two interceptions per game.

Taco, most Cards fans had lots of hope for Jake. Most supported him til the end. After 6 years and 5 losing seasons, it was time for something different. All I can say is more interceptions than touchdowns ... and good quarterbacks find a way to win, bad ones find a way to lose. Jake did both so who really knows how good or bad he'll be for Denver.

And your points about the Cards not being a winning organization or committed to winning is lost here. It's real easy for people who don't follow the Cards to talk about what's wrong with them and why they aren't a winning franchise. Yeah, everyone's an expert because they watch NFL Prime Time Sunday night and see two minutes of highlights. But, we know our team and watch more than three games a season, so don't test us.

 

[Brian in Mesa]

I'm a little confused.

We're mostly Cardinals fans here.

Unless we're playing the Broncos, why would we visit your board?

Because our ex-QB is now playing there? He's our ex-QB, why would we care about him until we play your team?

Obviously things must be slow in Denver if you've got to go around the internet to all the other teams' boards.

I apologize on behalf of most of the people here on our board. For having lives and jobs and families. If we didn't, maybe then we could be more like you, Taco.