Why Plummer will succeed in Denver where Arizona failed him...

[DCCardsFan]

Originally posted by Russ Smith
Lets not turn this into a personal attack I leave for vacation tomorrow and have no interest in stirring up crap here and leaving it for everyone else to read.

We don't agree on Jake, we probably never will. as I put in my other post, I don't care if Jake does well in Denver or not, my interest is the Cardinals, and my belief is he would NEVER do well here and had to go.

The reason I went to the Freak board, which I have posted there repeatedly, is I find it naive and frankly insulting for people to keep claiming that the Broncos coaches know more about Jake than the Cards coaches do. And for Bronco fans to insist they know more about him than Cards fans do. I did it over there for a reason, because I didn't want to disrupt THIS board because I know most people here are sick and tired of it and I respect that.

Playboy picked the Broncos to win the SuperBowl, they called Jake "supremely talented but frequently clueless" but then say that Shanahan will teach him how to win the way he transformed Elway and Steve Young. Classic example of why I went to that board in the first place.

I've said this to you and to others on this board, I don't dislike you, I do respect your opinions(you have said repeatedly you don't respect me or my opinions) and I fully realize we're never going to agree. I went over there specifically because people here are fed up with discussing Jake. I know most threads about Jake here wind up huge and I intentionally chose to debate on that board for that reason. I didn't hide there, I even posted here that I was there.

You respect me and my opinions? You constantly are accusing me of being a Jake fan and not a Cards fan. There have been many put-downs directed at me that I have not responded to.

I don't respect your OPINIONS because you admit you don't watch most of the games. Nearly every one of your opinions are based on stats, alone. I just don't think that's a fair way to judge players. That's why I occasionally call you a stat-nerd or say that you probably never played a contact team sport.

I don't like my team getting ragged on by the Denver fans either, and I strongly disagree that their COACHES are the reason why Jake will do better over there, but when you compare organizations, you have to admit that you would trade Bidwill for Bowlen. They do have a point when they say that he will be surrounded by better talent over there.

Whether he will do something with it is to be decided.

I don't care about the Broncos. I expect to be proven right, but I'd much rather be wrong and have the Cards outplay the Broncos this year. I just don't see it happening. And I think the witchhunt that scapegoated Jake will continue, except someone else will be that guy.

Simeon deserved it. Wadsworth, Mark Smith, Jamir Miller, Thomas Jones, Garrison Hearst, and Jake Plummer did not.

 

[Brian in Mesa]

Originally posted by DCCardsFan
Simeon deserved it. Wadsworth, Mark Smith, Jamir Miller, and Jake Plummer did not.

Wadsworth held out for much of his rookie season, Mark Smith was a late-round draft pick who had a good year and wanted to cash in (later, he faked injuries), and Jamir took less (initially) to go to Cleveland.

 

[DCCardsFan]

Originally posted by Brian in Mesa
Wadsworth held out for much of his rookie season, Mark Smith was a late-round draft pick who had a good year and wanted to cash in (later, he faked injuries), and Jamir took less (initially) to go to Cleveland.

Don't necessarily agree that Mark Smith faked injuries. His career ended up being ended due to the same injuries that you're saying he faked, if I'm not mistaken (unless you're talking about something else).

Just like Wadsworth "lied" to us about recovering from his injuries. While both we and Wadsworth wanted to believe that he had recovered, he had not. And what his agent did wasn't NEARLY as bad as what McGahee's agent did. As for his holding out, I can't blame him for that either - in a game where players' careers average something like 3 years, you can't blame a guy for wanting to get set financially. And as we all know, Bidwill generally deserves some of the blame when a player holds out.

Just like Steadman is a "butcher."

Aside from these players' business decisions, I thought they all played hard when they were here, played through pain, were good players, and didn't deserve the treatment they got from the fans. That's all I'm saying.

 

[Russ Smith]

Originally posted by DCCardsFan
You respect me and my opinions? You constantly are accusing me of being a Jake fan and not a Cards fan. There have been many put-downs directed at me that I have not responded to.

I

Again, I don't want to tie up this board DC. You came all the way over to that board and with your first post personally attacked me. when I retaliated with a you're a Jake fan not a Cardinal fan I was exaggerating.

I apologize if that statement really bothered you.

 

[DCCardsFan]

Agreed. This will be my last post on the subject.

All of these things have been said a thousand times, and I don't know why I keep feeling the need to rehash them. I guess it's just because this board seems to be of one mind about most things (looks like a herd instinct to me), and I think getting some alternate opinions out there is good.

I admit that I have crossed the line into personal attacks a few times, while you have not. For that, I am sorry, and i can only say that I didn't really mean any harm, and any insults are simply a result of the fact that I was truly angry when I wrote them.

 

[Taco John]

You all might find some interest in how this thread develops...

 

[Russ Smith]

Originally posted by Brian in Mesa
Wadsworth held out for much of his rookie season, Mark Smith was a late-round draft pick who had a good year and wanted to cash in (later, he faked injuries), and Jamir took less (initially) to go to Cleveland.

Wadsworth played in all 16 games as a rookie, he missed camp and preseason but no games. His problem was the Cards told everyone his demand violated the rookie cap, then wound up signing him to the very contract he demanded, which proved it did NOT violate the cap. My objection to him was his threat to go back to college. If not for the knee I fully believe Cards fans would love Andre Wadsworth, he's not a bad guy.

Smith frankly duped me, I hated the way Fergie dealt with him, but in the end it was pretty clear Mark knew how bad his knee was and that he had a limited window to cash in on, so he tried to get more money right away before the knee ended things. I understand it but I thought he handled it poorly.

Jamir was just plain silly, he thought he was worth more than he was and figured because we'd given Jake a huge deal, he'd get one too.

I still don't understand how anybody can say Jake was treated poorly given all the money and unconditional support he got here. It wasn't until year 5 where fans started to turn on him, that's the nature of the game in the NFL. Read the stuff the Bronco fans write about Son of Bob, it's just as bad if not worse.

 

[Taco John]

Nobody ever did answer my question about how consistent Jakes offensive line played in front of him... I got a lot of hyperbole about how Jake did when he had protection, but I never got an answer about how consistent your offensive line has been...

I hear that only two of your five guys last year played the entire season in the same spot... I've also heard that isn't such an uncommon story year after year for the Cards...

Am I hearing wrong? Why won't anybody address this? Is it because it would validate some of the things that DC Cards is saying, and is therefore political suicide around here?

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by Russ Smith
Why five years, jake was here for 6?

I could tell you year by year if you want but the short version is.

97 19 sacks of Graham in 6 starts, 52 sacks of Jake in 9 starts, gotta be the OL's fault right?
98 49 sacks of jake

from then on the sacks were in the good to pretty good range until last year's OL injury fest. Once Jake learned he couldn't hold the ball and count to 10, the OL looked a lot better.

Runstats were quite good the last 2 years we just didn't get enough leads to pound the ball. The main reason was Olson's offense was so conservative that he didn't let Jake bury the team with mistakes, we couldn't score, but we stayed in more games
and were thus not abandoning the run just after the opening kickoff.

Taco, not to be a dick, but it was answered right here.

 

[Wild Card]

Originally posted by Taco John
Nobody ever did answer my question about how consistent Jakes offensive line played in front of him... I hear that only two of your five guys last year played the entire season in the same spot... I've also heard that isn't such an uncommon story year after year for the Cards...

TJ:

And your point is what, exactly? That Plummer would've been a perennial Pro Bowler if only he'd had decent protection on a consistent basis?

I thought that Plummer's mobility and athleticism were two of his supposed strengths. I thought he didn't need great protection to be productive. I thought he was supposed to be a QB who'd make a bad team look better, and a good team great.

You better hope that's all true. Otherwise, the Broncos offensive line--tied for 27th in the NFL last year for sacks allowed, with 46--will have Plummer running for his life, the same way Griese did.

And then Plummer will be outta there, two years after signing his big contract. The same way Griese was.

WC

 

[Taco John]

So what's the answer then? yes we had a cery consistent offensive line, or no we didn't have a very consistent offensive line?


Was your offensive line closer to what Rich Gannon or Trent Green had last year (two of the best in the game), or was it closer to what Dallas had last year (I'm sure it was the fault of whoever was holding the ball too long behind that seive).


So yes or no?

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by Taco John
So what's the answer then? yes we had a cery consistent offensive line, or no we didn't have a very consistent offensive line?


Was your offensive line closer to what Rich Gannon or Trent Green had last year (two of the best in the game), or was it closer to what Dallas had last year (I'm sure it was the fault of whoever was holding the ball too long behind that seive).


So yes or no?

LOOK AT THE FREAKING STATS THAT RUSS POSTED!

GOD YOU ARE DENSE, CAN YOU READ?

I'm sorry to explode, but I posted the stats.

We built a pretty good offensive line for Jake, and even that didn't help. Last year we gave up LESS sacks than the Broncos with only 1 guy starting every game. Despite what DC said, we constantly faced 8 man fronts.

 

[Taco John]

Originally posted by Wild Card

I thought that Plummer's mobility and athleticism were two of his supposed strengths. I thought he didn't need great protection to be productive. I thought he was supposed to be a QB who'd make a bad team look better, and a good team great.

I think you'd have to be pretty ignorant of the game to think that any quarterback doesn't need great protection to be consistent/productive...


But maybe that's just me...

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by Taco John
I think you'd have to be pretty ignorant of the game to think that any quarterback doesn't need great protection to be consistent/productive...


But maybe that's just me...

Question for you Mr. Taco.

Could it be that Jake is responsible for his OWN mistakes?

I mean, I didn't see our offensive line, RBs, WRs, etc. throwing 20 picks last year, and fumbling the ball many times.

 

[Taco John]

Originally posted by Krangthebrain
LOOK AT THE FREAKING STATS THAT RUSS POSTED!

GOD YOU ARE DENSE, CAN YOU READ?

I'm sorry to explode, but I posted the stats.

We built a pretty good offensive line for Jake, and even that didn't help. Last year we gave up LESS sacks than the Broncos with only 1 guy starting every game. Despite what DC said, we constantly faced 8 man fronts.

I asked a pretty specific question... I'm getting nothing but dodge...

Yes or No... yes we had a very consistent offensive line, or no we didn't have a very consistent offensive line?

I've heard that only two of your five offensive guys last year played the entire season in the same spot... I've also heard that isn't such an uncommon story year after year for the Cards...


I don't want your hollow stats. I want a yes or no answer to my question... Yes we've had a very consistent offensive line, or no we didn't have a very consistent offensive line?

 

[Wild Card]

Originally posted by Taco John
So what's the answer then? yes we had a cery consistent offensive line, or no we didn't have a very consistent offensive line? Was your offensive line closer to what Rich Gannon or Trent Green had last year (two of the best in the game), or was it closer to what Dallas had last year (I'm sure it was the fault of whoever was holding the ball too long behind that seive). So yes or no?

TJ:

No, the Cardinals didn't have a consistent offensive line last year.

No, it wasn't close to the Chiefs and Raiders in terms of pass protection (#8 and tied for #15 in sacks allowed, with 26 and 36, respectively). However, with 41 sacks allowed, the Cardinals did rank higher, at #21, than the Broncos did, with 46, at #27.

Any other questions?

WC

 

[azdad1978]

Originally posted by Taco John
I asked a pretty specific question... I'm getting nothing but dodge...

Yes or No... yes we had a very consistent offensive line, or no we didn't have a very consistent offensive line?

I've heard that only two of your five offensive guys last year played the entire season in the same spot... I've also heard that isn't such an uncommon story year after year for the Cards...


I don't want your hollow stats. I want a yes or no answer to my question... Yes we've had a very consistent offensive line, or no we didn't have a very consistent offensive line?

R u still here?

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by Taco John
I asked a pretty specific question... I'm getting nothing but dodge...

Yes or No... yes we had a very consistent offensive line, or no we didn't have a very consistent offensive line?

I've heard that only two of your five offensive guys last year played the entire season in the same spot... I've also heard that isn't such an uncommon story year after year for the Cards...


I don't want your hollow stats. I want a yes or no answer to my question... Yes we've had a very consistent offensive line, or no we didn't have a very consistent offensive line?

DO YOU READ!!!!!!???????

No, not 2 started the entire season, 1 did! But Jake sucked the worst last year when MOST of our starters were playing. And that WASN'T normal. The only Cards fan you talk too, is one of the most clueless fans out there (DCCardsfan).

Our offensive line was very consistent at times, look at the freaking stats Russ posted.

 

[Taco John]

Originally posted by Krangthebrain
Question for you Mr. Taco.

Could it be that Jake is responsible for his OWN mistakes?

I mean, I didn't see our offensive line, RBs, WRs, etc. throwing 20 picks last year, and fumbling the ball many times.

Yes. Every quarterback makes mistakes. But football is a game of probability. The probability of your quarterback making mistakes raises significantly when the guys in front of him aren't doing their jobs. There is a significant cause and effect relationship involved, because it's a team sport...

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by Taco John
I asked a pretty specific question... I'm getting nothing but dodge...

You said that Pittman had a great year last year, we showed how wrong you were....Why have you dodged that?

 

[Krangodnzr]

Originally posted by Taco John
Yes. Every quarterback makes mistakes. But football is a game of probability. The probability of your quarterback making mistakes raises significantly when the guys in front of him aren't doing their jobs. There is a significant cause and effect relationship involved, because it's a team sport...

And the probability increases significantly when your QB throws picks directly to defenders.

Believe what you want Taco. You can choose to be a clueless Broncos homer, or you can open your eyes and see that Plummer wasn't part of the solution, he was part of the problem.

 

[azdad1978]

Originally posted by Taco John
Yes. Every quarterback makes mistakes. But football is a game of probability. The probability of your quarterback making mistakes raises significantly when the guys in front of him aren't doing their jobs. There is a significant cause and effect relationship involved, because it's a team sport...

Is it a team sport when he throws INT or fumble the snap? Is it a team sport when he does a behind the back throw? How about having a happy feet in the pocket? Or looking at one receiver the whole time? Or how about ignoring his TE when he's jumping up and down the endzone? Dude you better come back here when he' making all those ******** mistake cause you need to eat crow.

 

[SECTION 11]

The last half of last year, the line wasn't consistent with all the injuries. The first half of 2002 it was consistent. In 2001, the line was consistent. In 2000 it was improved, but still needed work.

Over those years, it hasn't really had an affect on Jake's play.
The reasons are obvious. He's not accurate, he doesn't have an NFL arm, he has trouble reading defenses, and he makes poor decisions, whether he's under duress or not.

Jake's problems are internal, not external.

 

[Russ Smith]

Originally posted by Taco John
So what's the answer then? yes we had a cery consistent offensive line, or no we didn't have a very consistent offensive line?


Was your offensive line closer to what Rich Gannon or Trent Green had last year (two of the best in the game), or was it closer to what Dallas had last year (I'm sure it was the fault of whoever was holding the ball too long behind that seive).


So yes or no?

The point of my post was to show you that OL's are often unfairly judged based on who is the QB. Marino made the Dolphin OL look great, the year he got hurt and Damon Huard started, Huard got sacked more in one game than marino did in some seasons.

I read a Lion preview 2 days ago that said the Lions "fixed" their OL problem last year. Of course they did, they replaced scrambler McMahon, with knows when to get rid of the ball Harrington. Harrington was the toughest QB in the NFL to sack last year, McMahon was the 2nd easiest QB in the NFL to sack his rookie year. It wasn't the OL it was the QB.

the ONE area Jake consistently improved at in the NFL was dealing with pass rush, he held it way too long his first 2 years, but he learned not to. Unfortunately he'd too often throw it into coverage instead of away when the rush got there, but he DID learn to avoid sacks.

using last year to make any judgements is silly it was an anomaly, Jake didn't play 6 years with his top 3 WR's out and 3/5 of his OL hurt, he played like 6 games in that situation last year.

 

[arthurracoon]

Taco, you obviously have not watched Jake. He can be very good and very bad. He will get booed out of Denver. Have you seen his mistakes?