Why Suns fans should be rooting for the Spurs

[wsupkid]

how so? you do realize that by saying the above, your basically implying that there is something which states players CAN elbow others intentionally, right?

I mean, if caught, Malone IS penalized for it, right? Through fines or suspensions, there's absolutely a rule that says you can't elbow someone intentionally. That's not to say the rule is always interpreted correctly, but that's not even a question of "spirit of the game" - it's just outright forbidden.

No, but fine I still call your BS. I understand the rules fine. thanks.
If you want to be ignorant that is fine with me!

 

[Cheesebeef]

No, but fine I still call your BS. I understand the rules fine. thanks.
If you want to be ignorant that is fine with me!

huh?

 

[cobbler]

I am not saying I blame him. I am saying it's bush league. I am saying it goes against the spirit of the rule. The rule was put in place to deter that practice...not encourage coaches to use it up until the final 2 minutes.

Dog, im in total agreement with you on this. I didnt mean to imply you were blaming him. I agree. As a player, I would have a hard time following the coaches direction and fouling like that. It just wouldn't feel right to me. I wouldnt feel like it was an honorable victory. This is an ethical issue and in todays world, ethics take a back seat. It's a sad commentary on society as it is in todays world. That's my 2 cents at least.

 

[dodie53]

i will never root for the spurs,
umm maybe if nash gets traded there.
or signs as a FA

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Why not just hold a star player accountable for improving his game? Shaq created the trend and if he started making them, it would stop immediately.

Intentional fouls happen all the time. Foul to give situations and trying to come back from behind at the end of the game are two more examples.

As I said it wasn't just Shaq. Loads of big men shoot around 60% from the FT line.

 

[mojorizen7]

Uh....no i won't be rooting for the Stern's.

 

[scXfreakX]

The only reason I can think to hope the Spurs win is to say the Suns got beat by the best team. Other than that, I can't think of any logical reason or anything otherwise. They still are the Spurs and they aren't exactly a team I'm fond of.

 

[TheHopToad]

The second I ever root for the Spurs is the second I bend down and an elephant flys out of my ass.

Hmmm...let's trade Shaq to San Antonio, I gotta see this...

 

[Darth Llama]

Or you can treat the "Hack a Shaq" as an intentional foul "because its the letter of the law" according to David Stern. FTs plus the ball

It's only FT's and the ball inside the last 2 min of a half. Otherwise, it's an off ball foul and is treated just like any other off ball foul. This is the reason that there will be no change this year to "fix" the Hack-A-Shaq. They would have to change all the rules for off ball fouls just for Shaq and that's not going to happen. They could put in a rule to just include "intentional" off ball fouls, but then you have a gray area over what is and what isn't "intentional." Teams will just foul him by running into him instead of bear hugging him.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

It's only FT's and the ball inside the last 2 min of a half. Otherwise, it's an off ball foul and is treated just like any other off ball foul. This is the reason that there will be no change this year to "fix" the Hack-A-Shaq. They would have to change all the rules for off ball fouls just for Shaq and that's not going to happen. They could put in a rule to just include "intentional" off ball fouls, but then you have a gray area over what is and what isn't "intentional." Teams will just foul him by running into him instead of bear hugging him.

So you don't believe that just giving the team the option to decline FTs and just maintain possession instead isn't a simple fix?

 

[Darth Llama]

So you don't believe that just giving the team the option to decline FTs and just maintain possession instead isn't a simple fix?

I didn't think about that as an option. I assume this would only be an option on an off ball foul right?

 

[cly2tw]

I don't root for Spurs in the series vs NO because I hate to see CP3 got fouled by Bowen constantly without being called.

 

[cly2tw]

So you don't believe that just giving the team the option to decline FTs and just maintain possession instead isn't a simple fix?

This would be good solution. Say for the last 3 min in each quarter, any away-from-ball foul could be given this option. This way, any hack-a-XXX tactic would be used only for some 2-3 minutes each quarters at most, which hardly would affect the game too much and thus very unlikely applied.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

I didn't think about that as an option. I assume this would only be an option on an off ball foul right?

Yeah. You could just say "Penalty declined" and take your ball side out. Problem solved and it would never be an issue again and no one would think the NBA was favoring one team/player over the other.

 

[mathbzh]

Yeah. You could just say "Penalty declined" and take your ball side out. Problem solved and it would never be an issue again and no one would think the NBA was favoring one team/player over the other.

The problem is that you would not be able to stop the clock at the end of the game to try a comeback. A team up by 2 at 24 seconds of the end would just have to keep the ball.

 

[tobiazz]

As I said it wasn't just Shaq. Loads of big men shoot around 60% from the FT line.

If your opponent uses the Hack-a-60%er, all your team has to do to stay even is keep the opponent under 60% FG. Even fouling a 50% FTer is detrimental unless the other team has poor defense. And if your team has a poor FTer and terrible defense, do they deserve to win?

I would rather see the league move more toward skilled players than protect ones with major deficiencies like not being able to make *free* throws.

I do kinda like the sideout idea if there is more than 2min left in the game.

 

[Agloco]

Popovich's horrid abuse of the fouling rules has assured that I will not be rooting for the Spurs. I respect them as a team, but I want to watch basketball, not Shaq and Skinner shooting free throws.

I will be hoping for the Celtics so that KG and Ray Allen can get their rings.

Last I checked, shooting free throws is an integral part of the game. Perhaps blame should also be given to Shaq and Skinner, both of whom are considered professionals in their line of work but cannot perform a fundamental skill related to it. I won't even bother to mention the obscene amount of money they are paid, just so they can stink it up from the line.

Simple solution: Spend a few more hours in the gym with your shooting coach and less hours in Las Vegas at the high-roller tables.

 

[Covert Rain]

Last I checked, shooting free throws is an integral part of the game. Perhaps blame should also be given to Shaq and Skinner, both of whom are considered professionals in their line of work but cannot perform a fundamental skill related to it. I won't even bother to mention the obscene amount of money they are paid, just so they can stink it up from the line.

Simple solution: Spend a few more hours in the gym with your shooting coach and less hours in Las Vegas at the high-roller tables.

Shooting free throws is integral. However, fouling players off the ball is not. No play on the ball. Trying to manipulate a rule with off the ball fouling is not an integral part of the game.

 

[jandaman]

I will root for the team that eliminates the Lakers...


No offense to some Laker fans here, you guys are fine.

But on other forums, Laker fans think they are King D!cks.... seriously... the arrogance, cockiness.... there's no better sight to see them get knocked out.... Spurs have the best chance to do that...although I like the Hornets from here on and out.

 

[Agloco]

Shooting free throws is integral. However, fouling players off the ball is not. No play on the ball. Trying to manipulate a rule with off the ball fouling is not an integral part of the game.

Cause and Effect.........

What do you think happens if Shaq and/or Skinner shoot 75% from the line. The situation suddenly resolves itself and all is fine eh?

It's been brought on by the fact that their FT shooting is SO POOR that it's actually advantagous to utilize a strategy like that. To me, that's the genesis of the problem, not the strategy itself.

Skinner and Shaq are professionals and they should be held accountable for their skill gap. Hiding their shortcomings behind some new rule simply reinforces the notion that having a glaring deficiency in a vital skill set is ok. For someone making millions much less, that's simply not acceptable. Period.

You get paid enough. Get in the gym and get better, simple.

 

[abomb]

Agloco is Mark Jackson!

 

[ambchang_]

I rather watch the hornets against the lakers or jazz, less flopping, more athleticism. Unlike some suns fans, I dont hate the spurs, but I dont like watching them either. They seem to try to use the rules to the max, anything to gain an advantage, working the refs, flopping, slowing down the game. Using hack a shaq was just ugly for any fan of basketball. I like watching the Hornets with CP3, the jazz are a blast with DWil, and the lakers, well, I gotta admit, if they win it will bring a little validity to the idea that defensive teams dont always win. The lakers are OK defensively, but its their offense that is dominating(a bit like MJ's bulls). The lakers are an efficient team with a very deep bench, and the best player in the NBA. Close games at theend could be very exciting with the lakers. The bench of the lakers is a fun group to watch, I especially like farmar, and the bench guys really hustle. The spurs just seem like a team with 3 good players plus chaff, its gets old after awhile.

I am not going to address the “working the refs, flopping” bit, as it has been pretty much established that every single team does it, even your beloved Suns. And I don’t know what is wrong about slowing down the game.

What I have a problem is that you mentioned the Bulls as dominating offensively and just “OK” defensively. You are talking about a team that held the Jazz to 59 points in a finals game. The Bulls were dominant defensively AND offensively (in the 2nd 3-peat). They had two of the best perimeter defenders in the league, and their interior defense is solid with Rodman in there.

In the 6 years where they won the championship, here is how the Bulls fare in FG% defense.
1991 – 13 out of 27 (right around average)
1992 - 9 out of 27
1993 - 15 out of 27
1996 – 8 out of 29
1997 - 4 out of 29
1998 – 4 out of 29.

You can see how they played suffocating defense in 1997 and 1998.

LOL, I love the Suns but I love Kobe who is the greatest player to play in the NBA since Air Jordan. Plus that team doesn't flop, they play good D and they play hard. Kobe is also a better team player now. Wish you all the luck and hope you win the title. Beat the Celtic thugs in the Finals and this season wouldn't be too bad.

You mean other than Shaq and Duncan, right? You mean Walton doesn’t flop? Derek Fisher is probably one of the greatest floppers of our generation.

So you want to watch a ft shooting contest all day? People get too concerned with "being #1" and forget that ultimately this is entertainment and nothing more.

There is nothing entertaining about tossing scrubs out to foul the statistically worst ft shooter on the opposing team.

Shaq had 15 years to work on his only weakness, and he didn’t. He turned down offers from Rick Barry to help him out. His problem.

Its pathetic, to destroy the game of basketball like it was some kind of risk game or something. If the suns become a "hack a player flopping team", I just wont watch, its not worth my time.

They why would you watch the Lakers? Phil Jackson did the hack-a-bowen. Derek Fisher flops like a fish, and so does Walton. Oh wait, you just hate the Spurs because that team eliminated your favourite team 3 out of 4 years, and you just have to find an excuse to validate that your team last unfairly. Cool.

I watch basketball because it is short attention span theater. You get to see amazing athleticism. You can actually have it both ways. Play an amazing game and acheive victory rather than what we saw.

Fortunately I am sure that rule will be changed next year.

Hack-a-Shaq has been used for more than a decade, but since the Spurs are using it, the rule must change. Adds to the theory that the league loves the Spurs don’t it?

Shaq shoots 50% from the line, the Suns shot less than 50% from the field in the series. In fact, in non-FT shooting situations, the Suns made 190 out of 412 attempts in the series for 46.1% shooting, 25 for 74 for 33.78 3P shooting, and 58 turnovers. Given that turnovers yields zero points, the expected value per possession throughout the series is only 0.74 points for the Suns (I forgot to take into account offensive rebounding, but I am too lazy to go back and look up the stats again), but a Shaq FT would give them an expected value of closer to 1 point per possession. If anything, it HELPS the Suns on a per possession basis. However, it does hack into the Suns psychologically, and undermines the trust between the coach, the team and Shaq. It really is a brilliant strategy.

I have to agree here. As much as I say congrats to the Spurs for playing what I felt was a clean series, I have to root against them.

I think Pop is a great coach but I lost a ton of respect for him for using Bush league tactics to help beat the Suns. Phil Jackson who has taken shots all year at Shaq even basically called them bush league moves against the Suns.

I don't think the Spurs needed to resort to those tactics to win the series but they did. I don't know if Pop was so worried about the Suns this year that he felt he had to or not. I just know he did.

I can't route for the Spurs period. I hope the Hornets go all the way. That's who I am going for.

Problem is, Phil Jackson used it against the Spurs in the form of hack-a-bowen. Him saying that it’s poor coaching is making him a hypocrite, and him saying that he has not used it in the past makes him a liar. I am surprised you respect a hypocrite and a liar more than a coach who, at least so far, hasn’t been proven to be either.

Or you can treat the "Hack a Shaq" as an intentional foul "because its the letter of the law" according to David Stern. FTs plus the ball

Only problem is that you are talking about a flagrant foul, and never did flagrant foul talked about intentional.

Section IV--Flagrant Foul
a. If contact committed against a player, with or without the ball, is interpreted to be unnecessary, a flagrant foul--penalty (1) will be assessed. A personal foul is charged to the offender and a team foul is charged to the team.
PENALTY: (1) Two free throws shall be attempted and the ball awarded to the offended team on either side of the court at the free throw line extended. (2) If the offended player is injured and unable to attempt his free throws, the opposing coach will select any player from the bench to attempt the free throws. (3) This substitute may not be replaced until the ball is legally touched by a player on the court. (EXCEPTION: Rule 3--Section V--e.) (4) The injured player may not return to the game. (5) A player will be ejected if he commits two flagrant fouls in the same game.
b. If contact committed against a player, with or without the ball, is interpret-ed to be unnecessary and excessive, a flagrant foul--penalty (2) will be assessed. A personal foul is charged to the offender and a team foul is charged to the team.
PENALTY: (1) Two free throws shall be attempted and the ball awarded to the offended team on either side of the court at the free throw line extended. (2) If the offended player is injured and unable to attempt his free throws, his coach will select a substitute and any player from the team is eligible to attempt the free throws. (3) This substitute may not be replaced until the ball is legally touched by a player on the court. EXCEPTION: Rule 3--Section V--e. (4) The injured player may return to the game at any time after the free throws are attempted. (5) This is an unsports-manlike act and the offender is ejected.
c. A flagrant foul may be assessed whether the ball is dead or alive.

Also, your letter of the rule thing, which is not really the rule to begin with, would disallow all fouls at end of games to get back, thus destroying theatre.

Ok, it is within the rules to but in a Skinner and HARD foul parker! Is it not? Dont get crazy here. I have no problem fouling shaq at the end of a game to take advantage of an opportunity. But If I was the Coach I would have made it the longest game in NBA history spending all my fouls the team had. Ok, Ok, maybe I would have Shaq put an elbow in parkers eye!

You haven’t watched any series outside of the Suns? The Nuggets was constantly hacking Parker and Ginobili in 05 and 07, and the Sonics in 05. That was the strategy. Thomas asked his guys to break Bowen’s legs, he asked his guy to hard foul the Nuggets players because he thought George Karl was showing him up by keeping starters in a blowout game. It happenED.

Besides, players would be ejected, fined, and suspended for that. Please people, learn the rules.

Dog, im in total agreement with you on this. I didnt mean to imply you were blaming him. I agree. As a player, I would have a hard time following the coaches direction and fouling like that. It just wouldn't feel right to me. I wouldnt feel like it was an honorable victory. This is an ethical issue and in todays world, ethics take a back seat. It's a sad commentary on society as it is in todays world. That's my 2 cents at least.

Did you have a problem with Phil Jackson’s hack-a-bowen?

So you don't believe that just giving the team the option to decline FTs and just maintain possession instead isn't a simple fix?

No, because teams will never be able to come back from 5 points down with 30 seconds on the clock.

So after reading through 5 pages, it is concluded that this is a problem because the Spurs are using it. Why am I not surprised? Afterall, every team can flop, but if the Spurs do it, it destroys the game. Every team can complain to the refs, they can even go ballistic, but when the Spurs does it, it’s manipulating the refs. Another chapter to show the absolute objectivity of azsportsfans posters.

 

[Agloco]

Agloco is Mark Jackson!

I wish.... At least I wouldn't have to worry about where next months rent was coming from.

I' m just an everyday NBA fan. I also happen to think that if you're making more money per month than most people will ever see in a lifetime, the least you can do is put forth a little effort and shoot FT's accurately.

Perhaps 20 million per year doesn't buy as much work ethic as it once did. Sad indeed.

 

[AfroSuns]

To ambchang,
Dude go away with your series analysis, one thing we dont need right now is a Spurms fan telling us what our players should have done.

We hate the Spurs before this series and we will after this season.

 

[ambchang_]

To ambchang,
Dude go away with your series analysis, one thing we dont need right now is a Spurms fan telling us what our players should have done.

We hate the Spurs before this series and we will after this season.

Good that you choose to respond without reading the post. Good job!