Why T. Jones wasn't traded

[mizzoucardfan]

If anyone was wondering why the Cardinals haven't traded Thomas Jones yet? On the Kansas City sports Radio station yesterday they reported that the Cardinals had asked for a 3rd round draft choice for Thomas Jones and wouldn't take anything lower. This was the reason that the Chiefs drafted the running back from Penn State instead of a defensive lineman. And the D-lineman that they were most likely interested in was, you guessed it, Pace.

 

[AZCB34]

3rd rounder...hilarious. Let's just cut him and get nothing because Graves would rather cur him that get a low round pick. This is the attitude by Graves I cannot understand...but this subject was beaten to death so I will stop now.

 

[Ed B]

hahaha!

3rd Rounder.

For Thomas Jones.


Good one, Mr. Graves. It's not as though New Orleans only got a 2nd rounder for All-Pro LT Kyle Turley.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Are you kidding me? 3rd rounder? 4th maybe, 5th more like it. They are in the drivers seat though. Becuase TJ's cap hit is low they dont need to trade him!

 

[maddogkf]

If they trade him prior to June 1, the signing bonus gets accellerated & we take a cap hit. If he gets cut, the bonus is spread to next year & its less of a hit.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Damn, sometimes I think that I could run this team better!

 

[Capital Card]

Originally posted by maddogkf
If they trade him prior to June 1, the signing bonus gets accellerated & we take a cap hit. If he gets cut, the bonus is spread to next year & its less of a hit.

This is TJ's last year under contract. His last year of prorated signing bonus hits us this year irregardless of when/if he is cut. There is no remaining bonus to hit next year.

 

[pinnacle]

I thought graves implied at one point that he wanted to have something done with jones prior to minicamp (this week)...something to the effect that he did want any "distractions" at mini-camp..not sure I heard this right..but it would make sense..I think he may be released or traded by the end of the week...but maybe not.

 

[Tangodnzr]

I can only repeat what I've been saying all along.

All things considered, Mac and Graves, (or anyone in Cards org.) have pretty much been straight forward with the public in their comments. They haven't lied about anything. They generally tell us as much as they reasonably can.

When you combine that with watching what actually transpires, you will find their actions do seem to pretty much follow what they said.

I certainly could have missed something, but all I remember Graves saying is that TJ has requested a trade and they had told him they would try to accomodate him.

That doesn't mean they will definitely do it. For what it costs to keep him, moneywise, TJ is still a very viable option as a backup.

The only debate I could see, is his presence taking up a roster spot instead of Scobey, Anderson, Prentice, etc.

So far Graves actions show the Cards are not going to just give him away for nothing. Whether others agree with that or not, is another matter.

I don't worry about his negative attitude if he is kept. I think the rest of the team is coming together very well, attitude-wise, and TJ could sulk all he wanted, but it wouldn't affect too many other players at this point. Besides, he still has to prove he's worth any money to any prospective FA buyer.

 

[AZCB34]

Originally posted by Tangodnzr
The only debate I could see, is his presence taking up a roster spot instead of Scobey, Anderson, Prentice, etc.

For me this is the problem and it is why I cannot fathom keeping TJ. I simply don't buy the argument he is an experienced backup...since that is what Shipp essentially is now behind Emmitt (don't forget, Mac has said Emmitt will start). Thus TJ would really only be taking up a roster spot of one of the young RBs who I believe need to be given their shot.

Now, if they do keep him, it is another story completely if he comes in and outright wins the 3rd RB spot...assuming no injuries occur.

 

[Ed B]

Graves stated "he will be traded or released", Tango. Keeping him is not an option in their plans.

So even if it was a 7th rounder, I can't fathom why we kept him. I mean, if the other option is cutting him, might as well just take whatever anyone offers.

 

[Tangodnzr]

You know, this is the kind of problem I like to see.

To me its going to be interesting to see what happens here.


I mean to have to decide, basically, whether your 3rd running back is Thomas Jones, last year of his contract, or another younger player?

They are in an almost no-lose situation.....Barring injury, of course. I figure 1-2 years for Smith with most likely scenario Shipp still playing a lot, but Smith's playing time should start declining mid to latter part of next year.

Jones is a long shot, by any strong stetch of the imagination. But not an impossibility. Should something happen and he is needed, I think he is as good as we could want. He HAS to play well if given any time at all. If not, he's not going to get squat from anyone next year. If you keep him and cut one of the other young running backs, then what next year?
So you had to cut some talent you might not really have wanted to?.....
Assuming Smith & Shipp are getting it done, its still not real critical.

I think what you have to look at is 2-3 years from now? Where do the Cards want to be then? Once Smith is gone? Shipp should be pretty much the man, they've made the commitment to him. But who is now backing him up, and also now maybe getting some decent time too?

Develop one of these they have now? Go higher level in draft at RB the next year or two?

They don't HAVE to do anything.....they can do whatever they want because, no matter what, their immediate needs seem to be covered.

Just another sign of a team that REALLY IS improving and headed in the right direction, for the most part.

 

[Tangodnzr]

Originally posted by Ed B
Graves stated "he will be traded or released", Tango. Keeping him is not an option in their plans.

When did he say that?
I'm not disputing he did, I'm just not aware of it. I'd like to see it if possible. I'm not trying to be an ass....but experience has repeatedly told me, that when it comes to discussions of who exactly said what....I just like to see the black and white original quote... or similar credible verification or substantiation.

If he did indeed say that....then, I agree there's a lot of very strange BS floating around right now.....from a lot of places.
And again, when things don't all add up or make sense like that ....usually that's an indication that some important information is missing.

 

[Ed B]

It was in the Republic. His exact quote was something to the effect that he will be gone before minicamp and had requested a trade but he'd "rather cut him than trade him for nothing", which of course makes no sense because cutting a guy <b>is</b> getting nothing.

I will try to find the story again. I know I saw it. Maybe someone else can help verify it.

 

[Sack Daddy]

I still say someone is going to step up and make a deal for T. Jones. The Dolphins are still interested (D. Rogers) for one. Landing a veteran free agent makes more sense than taking a chance on a late round pick. As a general rule, 5-7th round guys end up 3rd on the depth chart and usually have short careers. There are always exceptions, but far more fail than succeed.

 

[ChiCard]

Originally posted by Tangodnzr
When did he say that?
I'm not disputing he did, I'm just not aware of it. I'd like to see it if possible. I'm not trying to be an ass....but experience has repeatedly told me, that when it comes to discussions of who exactly said what....I just like to see the black and white original quote... or similar credible verification or substantiation.

If he did indeed say that....then, I agree there's a lot of very strange BS floating around right now.....from a lot of places.
And again, when things don't all add up or make sense like that ....usually that's an indication that some important information is missing.

Now I think I've kept my thoughts to myself regarding your posts of late but find it hard to believe you weren't trying to take another dig with the above request. While it irks me to demonstrate proof of anything when called upon to do so in such an insinuative manner here's the article:


Cards gain receiver by dealing final pick

Kent Somers
The Arizona Republic
Apr. 28, 2003 12:00 AM


The Cardinals ended the NFL draft Sunday the way they started it, by making a trade, and they're hoping it won't be the last deal they'll reach in the next few weeks.

The Cardinals traded their seventh-round pick to Detroit for receiver Larry Foster, a three-year veteran who also has experience returning kickoffs and punts. Foster was the third receiver the team acquired during the draft Saturday and Sunday.

There were deals left unmade, too. The Cardinals failed in their efforts to trade disgruntled running back Thomas Jones, refusing to accept deals for late-round picks.

"To be honest with you, I'd rather see us cut him before we do that," said Rod Graves, the team's vice president for football operations. "I wouldn't feel good about (trading) a guy I believe can still play in this league and giving him up for a seventh-round pick."

The Cardinals will continue to pursue trading Jones, who isn't expected to attend the mandatory minicamp this weekend. With the draft over, it's more likely they'll trade Jones for another player who might be in similar circumstances with his team.

 

[Houdini]

I don't understand this thinking by Graves. It's a long shot for a 7th rounder to make your team, but it happens. The Packers have two 7th round draft picks that are starters on offense. If the Cardinals are willing to sign 11 undrafted free agents, why not get an extra 7th round draft choice? Something is better than nothing.

 

[green machine]

The Cards probably figure that someone will make a trade for Jones in the end. If a team really wants him they'd rather do that I'm sure than risk losing him if he's cut.

adam

 

[Sack Daddy]

I think what Graves really means is that T. Jones cost a high 1st round pick and should net you more than a late draft pick. True, Jones has never lived up to his draft position. That said, he does have talent. I think the biggest problem has been incompatability between player and the system he's in. Jones is a dancer and he doesn't hit the hole with conviction. The Cards' have a beefy line and want to pound it and that's why Shipp was the better fit. Jones can help some team, it just won't be the Cards'. Sometimes it's hard to be patient, but I think there's a better deal to be had.

 

[ChiCard]

Originally posted by green machine
The Cards probably figure that someone will make a trade for Jones in the end. If a team really wants him they'd rather do that I'm sure than risk losing him if he's cut.

adam

It's hard to fathom a response though that says "I'd rather just cut the guy then get something" isn't it?

 

[JeffGollin]

The Cards probably figure that someone will make a trade for Jones in the end.
It's a judgement call by Graves.

Thing of it is - on the heels of the "judgement call" that didn't land us McDougle (and arguably similar ones that didn't land us Colvin or Holliday) - if this one doesn't go right, you can understand why confidence might be shaken concerning Rod's football judgement.

This isn't intended to bash Rod, but to serve notice that, fairly or unfairly, the outcome of decisions made by anyone (Rod included) become the measuring stick for for evaluating their credibility over time.

 

[JasonKGME]

Originally posted by ChiCard
Now I think I've kept my thoughts to myself regarding your posts of late but find it hard to believe you weren't trying to take another dig with the above request. While it irks me to demonstrate proof of anything when called upon to do so in such an insinuative manner here's the article:


"To be honest with you, I'd rather see us cut him before we do that," said Rod Graves, the team's vice president for football operations. "I wouldn't feel good about (trading) a guy I believe can still play in this league and giving him up for a seventh-round pick."

Maybe I read this different than some of you. I see the quote as saying that the team and Graves isn't going to let TJ go without getting something of real value for him. In other words give us a decent pick or we'll keep him this next year and get some special teams playing time out of him at least which is the BEST you can expect out of a 7th rounder, and half the time a 7th round pick doesnt end up on the active roster at all, ends up cut or on the practice squad, so would rather have TJ playing then traded for a 7th rounder.

Just my opinion.

 

[Tangodnzr]

Originally posted by ChiCard
Now I think I've kept my thoughts to myself regarding your posts of late but find it hard to believe you weren't trying to take another dig with the above request. While it irks me to demonstrate proof of anything when called upon to do so in such an insinuative manner here's the article:

I don't know what to tell you Chicard. You want to be "irked" that
's your decision. Obviously you continue to carry some lingering issues.

...and again....Obviously you didn't really read all of my comments. I thought I made it very, very plain why I asked for the exact quote. It had nothing to do with individual posters, or their personalities.
This whole subject was discussed previously. Again, obviously there are some here that didn't read that thread.
That's understandable, there are so many posts here these days, it is hard to keep up with all of them.
But as I said when I asked...when it comes to talking about who said what, it always helps to have the exact quote available.

I can appreciate your effort to find the quote.
I must say though, that it is as I suspected. This is the same quote I ....and others have already commented on . I am going to bump the whole thread for anyone who may be interested in it. As we discussed possible interpretations of it.

This is taken from page 2 of the "Rod Graves" thread originally posted april 27.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by AZCB34

Here is the actual quote:

"To be honest with you, I'd rather see us cut him before we do that," said Rod Graves, the team's vice president for football operations. "I wouldn't feel good about (trading) a guy I believe can still play in this league and giving him up for a seventh-round pick."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for posting the actual quote Cubby. Here's another perspective on it. I'm not saying its right, but the one thing that doesn't fil in all of the comments to date, is that I just don't believe Graves is THAT stupid to chop his own nose of to spite his face anyway....consider this: notice he says.

"I wouldn't feel good about (trading) a guy I believe can still play in this league and giving him up for a seventh-round pick."


Isn't it possible that he means that he considers TJ worth a lot more than that, and that they are NOT going to cut him, just to dump him. If that's the case then it makes a little more sense. Personally I would read into this that Graves is saying "We're not going to trade this guy for a 7th rounder, I'd rather cut him first." Maybe a little bit of hypebole there, with the first part of his quote either being a little bit of a brain fart or just exaggerating a point.
At least that scenario would make SOME sense.

_________________________________________________

So you see Chicard, this WAS discussed earlier. And way back then some of us offered alternative interpretations to that quote.
Some, certainly not all, have since agreed with my viewpoint and "take". And as I also said before, that would make sense out of some of the other events that have transpired.

And ONCE AGAIN, as I said before, when it comes to talking about who said what.....it does indeed pay to be as meticulous as possible...because its a natural tendancy for everyone to repeat it in a way tainted by their own perspective.

This is a perfect, perfect example.

 

[nationsrj]

Originally posted by JeffGollin
The Cards probably figure that someone will make a trade for Jones in the end.
It's a judgement call by Graves.

Thing of it is - on the heels of the "judgement call" that didn't land us McDougle (and arguably similar ones that didn't land us Colvin or Holliday) - if this one doesn't go right, you can understand why confidence might be shaken concerning Rod's football judgement.

This isn't intended to bash Rod, but to serve notice that, fairly or unfairly, the outcome of decisions made by anyone (Rod included) become the measuring stick for for evaluating their credibility over time.

There is no similarity between a "judgement call" that did not result in McDougle and Colvin or Holliday. Colvin was offered more money that he accepted with the Patriots. The only judgement was Colvin's that he wanted the Patriots offer over the Cardinals. Holliday used his "judgement call" to take another team's(I can't remember the team right now)offer over the Cardinals.

While I don't agree with all Grave's decisions, I do not feel the judgement he has shown is wrong. During the Free Agent signing period, he has shown that he is going after players to improve the team, but he(nor anyone else) does not succeed with every player he is after. The Cardinals certainly have a bad record in signing some of the free agents, but this does not stem from a "judgement call" by Rod Graves, other than overpaying in order to obtain a free agent.

 

[ChiCard]

Originally posted by Tangodnzr
I don't know what to tell you Chicard. You want to be "irked" that
's your decision. Obviously you continue to carry some lingering issues.

...and again....Obviously you didn't really read all of my comments. I thought I made it very, very plain why I asked for the exact quote. It had nothing to do with individual posters, or their personalities.
This whole subject was discussed previously. Again, obviously there are some here that didn't read that thread.
That's understandable, there are so many posts here these days, it is hard to keep up with all of them.
But as I said when I asked...when it comes to talking about who said what, it always helps to have the exact quote available.

I can appreciate your effort to find the quote.
I must say though, that it is as I suspected. This is the same quote I ....and others have already commented on . I am going to bump the whole thread for anyone who may be interested in it. As we discussed possible interpretations of it.

This is taken from page 2 of the "Rod Graves" thread originally posted april 27.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by AZCB34

Here is the actual quote:

"To be honest with you, I'd rather see us cut him before we do that," said Rod Graves, the team's vice president for football operations. "I wouldn't feel good about (trading) a guy I believe can still play in this league and giving him up for a seventh-round pick."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for posting the actual quote Cubby. Here's another perspective on it. I'm not saying its right, but the one thing that doesn't fil in all of the comments to date, is that I just don't believe Graves is THAT stupid to chop his own nose of to spite his face anyway....consider this: notice he says.

"I wouldn't feel good about (trading) a guy I believe can still play in this league and giving him up for a seventh-round pick."


Isn't it possible that he means that he considers TJ worth a lot more than that, and that they are NOT going to cut him, just to dump him. If that's the case then it makes a little more sense. Personally I would read into this that Graves is saying "We're not going to trade this guy for a 7th rounder, I'd rather cut him first." Maybe a little bit of hypebole there, with the first part of his quote either being a little bit of a brain fart or just exaggerating a point.
At least that scenario would make SOME sense.

_________________________________________________

So you see Chicard, this WAS discussed earlier. And way back then some of us offered alternative interpretations to that quote.
Some, certainly not all, have since agreed with my viewpoint and "take". And as I also said before, that would make sense out of some of the other events that have transpired.

And ONCE AGAIN, as I said before, when it comes to talking about who said what.....it does indeed pay to be as meticulous as possible...because its a natural tendancy for everyone to repeat it in a way tainted by their own perspective.

This is a perfect, perfect example.

I printed the entire article because as I suspected, you did indeed have ulterior motives in the phraseology of your post. The trouble with your statement however, is like most comments you make, you took the quote out of context to give it your spin.

The thing that prompted your question was a statement that we were either going to trade or cut Jones. You conveniently left off the sentence that preceeded the quote and of course modifies it, to wit:

"The Cardinals failed in their efforts to trade disgruntled running back Thomas Jones, refusing to accept deals for late-round picks."

Now when read in that light, an active attempt to get rid of the guy, it's obvious that since they couldn't get what they wanted in return, they weren't going to achieve their goal via a trade. The writer of the article felt it important enough to proceed not by narrative, but through illiterating the speakers actual words so as to stress the importance of what was to follow namely that they'd cut the guy before "giving" him away.

Now the point was whether or not the Cards have decided to part company with Jones. Next time you insist upon seeing things "in black & white", we can have a more meaningful dialogue if you don't redact the article to fit your opinion. Who was it that said "it does indeed pay to be as meticulous as possible"?