Why wouldn't we trade our second for Surtain???!!!

[cardsunsfan]

I really don't get it... I look at the corners in this draft and none of them seem like a sure thing to me. If we are looking to take a cb since we'll probably get Henry..why wouldn't we trade our second for Surtain? He's a proven commodity and the odds that any of these guys end up being as good as him is small. The odds of at least one of the big three.. Rolle/Rogers/Jones not even making it in the NFL is pretty good.

How much would Surtain's contract be compared to our 8th pick? If it's anything close that I'd take Surtain in a heartbeat. For people using the excuse that we wouldn't be able to afford Surtain plus our first round pick (something I don't agree with) than just trade your first for a second and third or something else..you will be able to move the pick if our demands are right if we don't want to pay any more.

I think you go with the proven guys. Henry at rb Surtain at cb, and if we feel we can afford it and he's still on the board...Johnson at lb sounds pretty good to me....

 

[Russ Smith]

I really don't get it... I look at the corners in this draft and none of them seem like a sure thing to me. If we are looking to take a cb since we'll probably get Henry..why wouldn't we trade our second for Surtain? He's a proven commodity and the odds that any of these guys end up being as good as him is small. The odds of at least one of the big three.. Rolle/Rogers/Jones not even making it in the NFL is pretty good.

How much would Surtain's contract be compared to our 8th pick? If it's anything close that I'd take Surtain in a heartbeat. For people using the excuse that we wouldn't be able to afford Surtain plus our first round pick (something I don't agree with) than just trade your first for a second and third or something else..you will be able to move the pick if our demands are right if we don't want to pay any more.

I think you go with the proven guys. Henry at rb Surtain at cb, and if we feel we can afford it and he's still on the board...Johnson at lb sounds pretty good to me....

It's got to be the bonus he wants. I don't think you can justify moving out of round 1 to avoid the bonus because a BIG reason to trade for Surtain is so you're free to draft BPA at 8, if you move totally out of the first round, you get extra picks but none likely to be an impact player like you'd get at 8.

If the bonus had been 8 it was a no brainer, but since it's clearly at least 10 per the KC rumors, I'm convinced we just think it's too much.

 

[CardLogic]

Anyone looking to get BIG guaranteed money would cause me to look elsewhere for a solution. Is Miami in a tight cap situation? If he is worth the asking why isn't Miami stepping up?

 

[overseascardsfan]

There are a couple of pro's and con's:

1. He is a #1 CB in this league.
2. He would only cost us a third round pick.

1. He would demand alot of money.
2. No guarantee he delivers after getting his money


If we could get him signed for a reasonable price, I'd give up a 3rd (NE) and draft DJ or the best RB at 8. Then resign Hill.

Surtain, Macklin, Hill, Perkins (our third), sounds pretty nice.

 

[Snakester]

I really don't get it... I look at the corners in this draft and none of them seem like a sure thing to me. If we are looking to take a cb since we'll probably get Henry..why wouldn't we trade our second for Surtain? He's a proven commodity and the odds that any of these guys end up being as good as him is small. The odds of at least one of the big three.. Rolle/Rogers/Jones not even making it in the NFL is pretty good.

How much would Surtain's contract be compared to our 8th pick? If it's anything close that I'd take Surtain in a heartbeat. For people using the excuse that we wouldn't be able to afford Surtain plus our first round pick (something I don't agree with) than just trade your first for a second and third or something else..you will be able to move the pick if our demands are right if we don't want to pay any more.

I think you go with the proven guys. Henry at rb Surtain at cb, and if we feel we can afford it and he's still on the board...Johnson at lb sounds pretty good to me....

I'm with you on this one. Surtain is one of the top ten CBs in the league. If we could get him for a number two draft pick I think it would be a no brainer. Why we are not trying to trade for him is a mystery to me. My only guess is that Dennis Green doesn't care anything about CBs. This is the only theory that I can come up with. Over the last two free agency periods with Denny in charge, he has not went after a top CB when there was more top CBs available than I can ever remember. If this theory is correct then I don't expect us to draft a CB high either.

If we trade for Travis Henry, and Green is drafting best available player then I think we will take Derrick Johnson at #8.

 

[Russ Smith]

I'm with you on this one. Surtain is one of the top ten CBs in the league. If we could get him for a number two draft pick I think it would be a no brainer. Why we are not trying to trade for him is a mystery to me. My only guess is that Dennis Green doesn't care anything about CBs. This is the only theory that I can come up with. Over the last two free agency periods with Denny in charge, he has not went after a top CB when there was more top CBs available than I can ever remember. If this theory is correct then I don't expect us to draft a CB high either.

If we trade for Travis Henry, and Green is drafting best available player then I think we will take Derrick Johnson at #8.

That will be an interesting thing, if we don't take a CB at 8 I'll have to agree with you that Green simply thinks in today's NFL elite CB's aren't necessary.

He clearly thinks pass rush is very important, I agree, and that would point to either a guy like Johnson(so Dansby is freed up to blitz more) or a guy like Merriman or Ware as a hybrid LB/De although I think 8 is too high for either.

 

[CardLogic]

Surtain is one of the top ten CBs in the league. If we could get him for a number two draft pick I think it would be a no brainer. Why we are not trying to trade for him is a mystery to me. My only guess is that Dennis Green doesn't care anything about CBs. This is the only theory that I can come up with. Over the last two free agency periods with Denny in charge, he has not went after a top CB when there was more top CBs available than I can ever remember. If this theory is correct then I don't expect us to draft a CB high either.

If we trade for Travis Henry, and Green is drafting best available player then I think we will take Derrick Johnson at #8.

Risk/Reward Management - were the "top" corners available last year worth their asking price?

I don't think so, and apparently neither do and Cardinals and DG. Instead the Cards went out and got Macklin. Yeah he is considered a "second" tier guy, but the risk/reward ratio is much lower. And basically Macklin got the job done at a much lower risk/cost. That is smart management!

 

[seesred]

I think there are twenty five million reasons we wont do any of the above. I believe that's what he wants up front. That's why even though he is a good player only one team is after him and even that deal may not go down. We will be fine at the end of the day at CB. Hill could resign, first or second round CB and then there is still some drop of in june. Green and Graves are on the right track. If I owned a Pro team I wouldn't pay anyone that kind of bread. Remember once it's in the bank he is just one excuse away froim the sidelines.

GBR
40
In Green we trust

 

[Snakester]

That will be an interesting thing, if we don't take a CB at 8 I'll have to agree with you that Green simply thinks in today's NFL elite CB's aren't necessary.

He clearly thinks pass rush is very important, I agree, and that would point to either a guy like Johnson(so Dansby is freed up to blitz more) or a guy like Merriman or Ware as a hybrid LB/De although I think 8 is too high for either.

So far Green has added to the front seven with Berry, Dockett, Okeafor and Dansby. I'm guessing that he thinks if he creates a good enough pass rush that he doesn't need great CBs to get the job done. It would be nice to have at least one shutdown corner though. This team needs at least 2 quality CBs still. I'm guessing he is going to draft one and then sign a guy like Macklin after the draft.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Mainly because we could get him with our late 3rd round pick in a trade. All Miami wants is a day 1 pick for him.KC won't do 2nd rounder and their 3rd is a comp pick.I think if Surtain had reasonable contract demands that the Cards would talk with Miami.But they are probably more concerned with extending Boldin and i don't think they have the cap room to do both.

 

[Snakester]

Risk/Reward Management - were the "top" corners available last year worth their asking price?

I don't think so, and apparently neither do and Cardinals and DG. Instead the Cards went out and got Macklin. Yeah he is considered a "second" tier guy, but the risk/reward ratio is much lower. And basically Macklin got the job done at a much lower risk/cost. That is smart management!

I think we still have to spend the money to have at least one shutdown CB to be able to stop the top passing attacks in the NFL. We only have one decent CB on the roster. There are four top CBs in this years draft that could start and do a good job from day one, and they all will be taken in the first round. In todays NFL, if you can't stop the pass you will lose. We sent our only other good CB to the Patriots. Renaldo Hill may or may not come back,but he has never been or will ever be anything better than a third or fourth corner. Macklin is an okay second corner or a solid third CB. I think this team needs at least one really good CB if we are going to not only get to the playoffs, but to also have a chance at going all the way.

I feel the same way about the QB position as well. If your QB sucks it's not likely that you will win either.

 

[JeffGollin]

Just to play devils advocate and also exercise due-dligence, I realize the CW says that Surtain is a Top 10 NFL corner, but -

1. Is he really a top 10 corner?

2. What's his forty-speed?

3. How old is he?

4. How are his knees and other key body parts? (i.e. how durable is he?)

5. Is he good people?

6. Will he be happy here?

7. Can we fit him under the cap without shooting ourselves in the foot elsewhere?

If the answers to all these questions ring positive, I'd give up our #44 for him in a heartbeat.

 

[football karma]

I will take a shot at this:

Surtain will be 29 at the beginning of the 2005 season.

To accomodate the signing bonus he wants, you are probably looking at a six year deal --

I suspect the performance curve for a CB on the downside of a career is pretty steep.

Dont know if that is the reason, but there has to be a reason why the Cards brass havent ever mentioned Surtain.

 

[CardinalChris]

Cap.... People on the board ask why teams don't want to trade picks for top players. It is because rookies are cheap labor. Plain and simple. They are locking to your team at a discount rate for 4 years.

 

[overseascardfan]

Just to play devils advocate and also exercise due-dligence, I realize the CW says that Surtain is a Top 10 NFL corner, but -

1. Is he really a top 10 corner?

2. What's his forty-speed?

3. How old is he?

4. How are his knees and other key body parts? (i.e. how durable is he?)

5. Is he good people?

6. Will he be happy here?

7. Can we fit him under the cap without shooting ourselves in the foot elsewhere?

If the answers to all these questions ring positive, I'd give up our #44 for him in a heartbeat.

He is a top ten CB. No real major injuries. Pay day will make him happy. Will want alot of money.

He's fairly old but considering that many other top 10 CB's with the exception of Samari Rolle don't hit the open market he could be a steal for a third rounder which is the asking price of the Dolphins. His base salary could be between 6-8 million. Salary bonuses I read don't count towards the cap look at the Cowboy's offseason moves. It's a gamble but I would rather take Surtain over Rolle, Rogers, and Jones, especially if one of them isn't there at 8. He is a proven #1 CB and getting a good running back in either the draft or trade fills our two biggest offseason needs IMO.

 

[joeshmo]

Salary bonuses I read don't count towards the cap

Where did you read this becuase it isnt true at all. All bonuses count against the cap.

 

[BigDavis75]

Where did you read this becuase it isnt true at all. All bonuses count against the cap.

Isnt there extra cap space given for bonuses?

 

[cardsunsfan]

Cap.... People on the board ask why teams don't want to trade picks for top players. It is because rookies are cheap labor. Plain and simple. They are locking to your team at a discount rate for 4 years.

A player at #8 is almost as expensive as Surtain..and we don't even know if he's a good player... as I mentioned..if we were to go through lets say..the last ten drafts and looked at corners picked close to #8 I bet almost none of them did as well as Surtain... also rookie corners aren't usually that great.. he'll probably take time to adapt to the NFL which means it will be more of an investment than intant production..so in a way he might be more expensive if you think that you might have to throw away yrs pay on him...

 

[overseascardfan]

Where did you read this becuase it isnt true at all. All bonuses count against the cap.

There was an article on SI.com about how the Cowboys still had cap space after signing their free agents and giving them large signing bonuses. The article came out about 2 weeks after free agency started otherwise I'd post the article. Just going off of what I saw on SI.com.

 

[BACH]

There was an article on SI.com about how the Cowboys still had cap space after signing their free agents and giving them large signing bonuses. The article came out about 2 weeks after free agency started otherwise I'd post the article. Just going off of what I saw on SI.com.

Then you misunderstood the article. Bonuses counts against the cap, but the bonus is spread out over the contract. So a $10m bonus for a five year contract would only cost $2M against the cap this year. Simple cap..

 

[joeshmo]

Isnt there extra cap space given for bonuses?

No.

 

[cardsunsfan]

So basically the way I see it..Surtain will possibly cost one million more a yr on base salary but less signing bonus probably? Wouldn't Surtain be worth it then? Does anybody know of a good site that has the last 10 drafts on it? I'd like to see how corners picked around 8 turned out. It seems to me that the odds of Rolle, Jackson, or Rogers turning out like Surtain is small...hell there is probably as good a chance they'll be a back up or nickleback than be as good as Surtain. If I were a betting man, I'd probably bet that one probably will end up about as good as him (with a couple yrs of training while we're not paying for production), one of the others will be a decent second corner for a team and the other one will end up being a nickle back or safety but who knows which one will end up being the nickle back or the #1 caliber corner? I know things might end up differently but I just think those are probably the odds...

I just don't get why you would pick a corner at 8 who still needs to be coached probably for a couple yrs to reach his potential, if you can get a proven great corner for about the same price? If people are worried about paying a player at 8 and paying for Surtain than trade your first for later picks... Another argument is that Green doesn't think corners are worth Surtain's money, well then we shouldn't draft a corner at 8 either for close to the same price! I just don't get it..someone please elighten me! Noone has really answered my question, why wouldn't you trade for Surtain if you would pick a corner at 8 otherwise?

 

[joeshmo]

So basically the way I see it..Surtain will possibly cost one million more a yr on base salary but less signing bonus probably? Wouldn't Surtain be worth it then?

Here you go. #8 and Surtains Bonuses will be about the same 12-14 mil. But the #8 picks base salary will be much smaller then just a 1 mill difference. For example Halls's base salary is the minimum of only 305K and in his 6 year deal he will never make more then 1 mill in base salary any given year.. Surtains will easily be a lot more then that. Outside of the top 5 picks the draftee's base salaries are usually at the minimum. So you are really only paying them a signing bonus plus incentives which if reached they should get more money anyways and deserve it.

With the straight line deals taht the Cards do I doubt Surtain cost any less then a 5 mill cap charge for us this year. We only have 7 mill left and that is not enough to get Boldin redone as well as having enough for the usual injury surplus fund.

Surtain is a pipe dream, even with the cuts and trades we can make.

 

[cardsunsfan]

Here you go. #8 and Surtains Bonuses will be about the same 12-14 mil. But the #8 picks base salary will be much smaller then just a 1 mill difference. For example Halls's base salary is the minimum of only 305K and in his 6 year deal he will never make more then 1 mill in base salary any given year.. Surtains will easily be a lot more then that. Outside of the top 5 picks the draftee's base salaries are usually at the minimum. So you are really only paying them a signing bonus plus incentives which if reached they should get more money anyways and deserve it.

With the straight line deals taht the Cards do I doubt Surtain cost any less then a 5 mill cap charge for us this year. We only have 7 mill left and that is not enough to get Boldin redone as well as having enough for the usual injury surplus fund.

Surtain is a pipe dream, even with the cuts and trades we can make.

So basically Rolle would cost three mill a yr and Surtain would cost five mill a yr? I guess that is a pretty big difference and we are pretty low on money... I wish we did deals like other teams, then it could maybe work....

 

[joeshmo]

So basically Rolle would cost three mill a yr and Surtain would cost five mill a yr? I guess that is a pretty big difference and we are pretty low on money... I wish we did deals like other teams, then it could maybe work....

You are right if we did more back loaded type deals we could make this work, but we dont. We are starting to a little bit. The Okeafer deal was a little back loaded but not much.