Wild Card 1st Round?

[Mitch]

This may sound absolutely crazy to many of you---but---there is a player that no one is talking about for the Cardinals' first round pick---and while I am speculating with consideration to how I believe Ken Whisenhunt thinks---I feel relatively certain that there is a player Whisenhunt and the staff are engaged in long discussions about, and he is TE Coby Fleener, 6-6, 246, Stanford.

The 2 TE sets are the rage right now in the NFL thanks to the New England Patriots and the manner in which they have unleashed the two headed monster of Rob Gronkowski and Aaron Fernandez on opposing defenses.

What Bill Belichick and the Patriots understand is that the best way to break down a defense in today's game is to attack it over the middle and up the seams...for a number of very smart reasons. One is that passes over the middle are the quickest point A to point B passes---as opposed to throws to the sideline or up the perimeter. From a time to react standpoint defending the middle, therefore, is much more difficult.

Those of you who mastered the Pac Man video game know that you beat the pressure through the middle---and in football terms when you have a big fast target on both sides of the line of scrimmage who can shake free into open seams and gaps, you've got an instant chain moving offense...add a frisky quick slot WR like Wes Welker to the mix as well and you have just created a coverage nightmare for opposing defenses.

Fleener is special....the guy is 6-6 and at his Pro Day---that was eagerly witnessed by Whisenhunt and a cluster of Cardinal coaches---Fleener was outstanding. He ran a 4.47 with the wind at his back and a 4.51 into the wind---and he caught everything in sight. Go back and watch his 7 catch 168 yard performance in Stanford's 2010 Orange Bowl versus Virginia Tech---and you will see what Whisenhunt sees.

For those of you who like WR Michael Floyd---Fleener runs just as fast.

You might say, what about Rob Housler? Well, he does show excellent potential, especially if a TE like Fleener is opposite him.

Todd Heap is a year from retirement and while Jeff King played well and surprised somewhat as a pass catcher---which must make the Cardinal coaches wonder what kind of production they could get from a superior pass target and catcher like Fleener.

I will tell you this---Jim Harbaugh is drooling at the chance to nab Fleener and is contemplating ways to trade up in order to get him. If the 49ers land Fleener to go opposite Vernon Davis, we can essentially sing the Dandy Don Meredith song, "Turn Out the Lights, the Party's Over."

By drafting Fleener you gain the advantage that SF wants so badly.

Now---if the Cardinals really want him---do they try to move down? Possibly. But---trust me, they can't move too far down.

Yet, Fleener might be deemed so valuable that they would stay put and grab him at #13.

While it appears the Cardinals are enamored with G David DeCastro---I am willing to go out on a limb and say that with our coaches and what they want, Coby Fleener is more valuable to them.

Plus, this guy, like Gronkowski is a red zone beast---10 TDs last year and I think he has 7 or 8 the year before.

 

[Cardiac]

I'm all for BPA and I like the idea of beefing up the receiving threat from the TE position.

I doubt Fleener will be BPA at #13 and I'm not sure where you get your inside info on Whiz and Harbaugh drooling over this prospect.

I do agree fully with your assessment on what receiving TE's can do for an offense. Wasn't it like 5 years ago or so that the TE was thought to be a dying breed? I guess the college game and their spread offenses developed enough talent to change that.

 

[Mitch]

I would like to make a couple of more points:

1. When you have 2 pass catching threats at TE in a 2 TE set, defenses cannot play zone---they simply cannot. All the TEs have to do is sit in the holes---it's way too easy. It's pitch and catch all day.

2. It forces the opposing defense to engage their safeties into the middle of the defense, which in our case would mean MUCH less bracketing on Fitz, and we all know what that would mean to our offense.

 

[Jetstream Green]

that guy is a game changer IMO, and would be happy if the Cards took Fleener...if Castro is gone, it makes a lot of sense to me Mitch as well

 

[Mitch]

A couple more points:

1. When you attack the middle the ball comes out faster---which is exactly what the coaches need out of Kevin Kolb and to a somewhat lesser degree, John Skelton---and it puts less pressure on the offensive line (which is why---I believe that a player like Fleener may be considered more valuable than a guard or a tackle. And let's get this straight---the Cardinals want to throw the ball---that's their philosophy---and they will do all they can to throw it, rather than run it.

2. As Kurt Warner always said, a good NFL offense is predicated on exploiting mismatches for the defense. If you have to fast big targets at TE, you are creating the mismatch advantage that you believe will give you the edge to win games.

 

[Mitch]

that guy is a game changer IMO, and would be happy if the Cards took Fleener...if Castro is gone, it makes a lot of sense to me Mitch as well

The Cardinals passed up HUGE trade offers to stay put and select Patrick Peterson, whom, as we saw, is a game changer. I think that the Cardinals are now focused in that manner---they want game changers early.

 

[Buckybird]

If the Cards select Fleener in the top 25 picks the entire organization needs to burn in a firey pit & never return, given or other pressing needs like a OT, WR2 & a dominant OLB.

Funny how Wiz was a TE & we have seldom thrown to one or utilized them effectively since the days of Novacek/Awalt. Not gonna happen IMO

 

[Mitch]

If the Cards select Fleener in the top 25 picks the entire organization needs to burn in a firey pit & never return, given or other pressing needs like a OT, WR2 & a dominant OLB.

Funny how Wiz was a TE & we have seldom thrown to one or utilized them effectively since the days of Novacek/Awalt. Not gonna happen IMO

I hear you, Bucky. But---for right or for wrong, I think the coaches are not as concerned about the positions you mention, because they feel like the team won 7 of its last 9 games with what they already have, and now they have an entire off-season and much continuity to build on.

Patrick Peterson won two or three games because he is game changer---and I believe that if a player like Fleener gives them a mismatch advantage that they don't already have, that he is very much in the discussion.

 

[JeffGollin]

If the Cards select Fleener in the top 25 picks the entire organization needs to burn in a firey pit & never return...

Roger that.

And not just because it bypasses a need. Fleener may be the Top rated TE in the draft (& a good receiving one) but - in absolute terms - we'd be bypassing a bunch of better players.

Also (in case the Cards want to upgrade their TEs even further), we're carrying 6 TE's on our roster right now. King showed he could catch as well as block, and Housler - a receiving threat - will have his first off-season to benefit from. (In this scenario, Heap becomes icing on the cake and less of a necessity).

 

[Crazy Canuck]

Mayoch does not give any TE in this draft a first round grade. Not to say, that based on need or scheme, Fleener finds himself in round one. More likely later than #13. Texans would be a possibility. I've been attempting to go through the exercise of selecting the 12 players first off the board, and no matter the permutation there is too much talent available at #13 for any serious contemplation of Jacoby Fleener.

 

[Cardiac]

If the Cards select Fleener in the top 25 picks the entire organization needs to burn in a firey pit & never return, given or other pressing needs like a OT, WR2 & a dominant OLB.

Funny how Wiz was a TE & we have seldom thrown to one or utilized them effectively since the days of Novacek/Awalt. Not gonna happen IMO

Our TE unit did catch 65 balls last year. That's with Heap injured and out and Housler still very wet behind the ears. Plus at least twice Housler was wide open for big gains and potential TD's and the QB's missed him.

I tend to agree that Fleener is a reach at 13 but so would Martin. I'd actually prefer Fleener over Martin and a good number of the projected OLBers.

 

[Lagerfilled]

So whats wrong with Heap or Shiancoe for that matter? What can Fleener do that the other two couldn't to complement Housler? Just not seeing the need. Ingram, Floyd, Reiff, & DeCastro to a lesser extent are all need areas over TE. Not to mention, they're better football players.

 

[Russ Smith]

I love Fleener but not that early. I'd be surprised if Harbaugh took him he's already got 2 fast TE's, both of whom block better than Fleener.

I do think he has a chance to be a very good NFL TE but so does Housler if he can get on the same page with Kolb.

 

[john h]

This may sound absolutely crazy to many of you---but---there is a player that no one is talking about for the Cardinals' first round pick---and while I am speculating with consideration to how I believe Ken Whisenhunt thinks---I feel relatively certain that there is a player Whisenhunt and the staff are engaged in long discussions about, and he is TE Coby Fleener, 6-6, 246, Stanford.

The 2 TE sets are the rage right now in the NFL thanks to the New England Patriots and the manner in which they have unleashed the two headed monster of Rob Gronkowski and Aaron Fernandez on opposing defenses.

What Bill Belichick and the Patriots understand is that the best way to break down a defense in today's game is to attack it over the middle and up the seams...for a number of very smart reasons. One is that passes over the middle are the quickest point A to point B passes---as opposed to throws to the sideline or up the perimeter. From a time to react standpoint defending the middle, therefore, is much more difficult.

Those of you who mastered the Pac Man video game know that you beat the pressure through the middle---and in football terms when you have a big fast target on both sides of the line of scrimmage who can shake free into open seams and gaps, you've got an instant chain moving offense...add a frisky quick slot WR like Wes Welker to the mix as well and you have just created a coverage nightmare for opposing defenses.

Fleener is special....the guy is 6-6 and at his Pro Day---that was eagerly witnessed by Whisenhunt and a cluster of Cardinal coaches---Fleener was outstanding. He ran a 4.47 with the wind at his back and a 4.51 into the wind---and he caught everything in sight. Go back and watch his 7 catch 168 yard performance in Stanford's 2010 Orange Bowl versus Virginia Tech---and you will see what Whisenhunt sees.

For those of you who like WR Michael Floyd---Fleener runs just as fast.

You might say, what about Rob Housler? Well, he does show excellent potential, especially if a TE like Fleener is opposite him.

Todd Heap is a year from retirement and while Jeff King played well and surprised somewhat as a pass catcher---which must make the Cardinal coaches wonder what kind of production they could get from a superior pass target and catcher like Fleener.

I will tell you this---Jim Harbaugh is drooling at the chance to nab Fleener and is contemplating ways to trade up in order to get him. If the 49ers land Fleener to go opposite Vernon Davis, we can essentially sing the Dandy Don Meredith song, "Turn Out the Lights, the Party's Over."

By drafting Fleener you gain the advantage that SF wants so badly.

Now---if the Cardinals really want him---do they try to move down? Possibly. But---trust me, they can't move too far down.

Yet, Fleener might be deemed so valuable that they would stay put and grab him at #13.

While it appears the Cardinals are enamored with G David DeCastro---I am willing to go out on a limb and say that with our coaches and what they want, Coby Fleener is more valuable to them.

Plus, this guy, like Gronkowski is a red zone beast---10 TDs last year and I think he has 7 or 8 the year before.

If the Cards really want him they should not move up or down. If he is as important to the team as you indicate we have not been very lucky when we move around. The only thing I can say is that the Cards staff did visit Stanford so they must have had someone in mind. As to his abilities you know a lot more than me as I know nothing about the west coast teams. If you want to talk SEC I can speak.

 

[ryanshaug]

I don't like the thought of taking a tight end with our first round pick - even if he is a game changer. I agree that we should take BPA and not just reach to get a need, but without a second round pick, it seems like we really should focus on addressing the offensive line. If there are no solid (i.e., top 13 on the board) OL prospects left at 13, then it makes sense to take a possible game changer like this if the coaches/talent evaluators feel that way about him.

 

[Goldfield]

Imagine what he could of done if he had a decent QB throwing to him....

 

[john h]

This may sound absolutely crazy to many of you---but---there is a player that no one is talking about for the Cardinals' first round pick---and while I am speculating with consideration to how I believe Ken Whisenhunt thinks---I feel relatively certain that there is a player Whisenhunt and the staff are engaged in long discussions about, and he is TE Coby Fleener, 6-6, 246, Stanford.

The 2 TE sets are the rage right now in the NFL thanks to the New England Patriots and the manner in which they have unleashed the two headed monster of Rob Gronkowski and Aaron Fernandez on opposing defenses.

What Bill Belichick and the Patriots understand is that the best way to break down a defense in today's game is to attack it over the middle and up the seams...for a number of very smart reasons. One is that passes over the middle are the quickest point A to point B passes---as opposed to throws to the sideline or up the perimeter. From a time to react standpoint defending the middle, therefore, is much more difficult.

Those of you who mastered the Pac Man video game know that you beat the pressure through the middle---and in football terms when you have a big fast target on both sides of the line of scrimmage who can shake free into open seams and gaps, you've got an instant chain moving offense...add a frisky quick slot WR like Wes Welker to the mix as well and you have just created a coverage nightmare for opposing defenses.

Fleener is special....the guy is 6-6 and at his Pro Day---that was eagerly witnessed by Whisenhunt and a cluster of Cardinal coaches---Fleener was outstanding. He ran a 4.47 with the wind at his back and a 4.51 into the wind---and he caught everything in sight. Go back and watch his 7 catch 168 yard performance in Stanford's 2010 Orange Bowl versus Virginia Tech---and you will see what Whisenhunt sees.

For those of you who like WR Michael Floyd---Fleener runs just as fast.

You might say, what about Rob Housler? Well, he does show excellent potential, especially if a TE like Fleener is opposite him.

Todd Heap is a year from retirement and while Jeff King played well and surprised somewhat as a pass catcher---which must make the Cardinal coaches wonder what kind of production they could get from a superior pass target and catcher like Fleener.

I will tell you this---Jim Harbaugh is drooling at the chance to nab Fleener and is contemplating ways to trade up in order to get him. If the 49ers land Fleener to go opposite Vernon Davis, we can essentially sing the Dandy Don Meredith song, "Turn Out the Lights, the Party's Over."

By drafting Fleener you gain the advantage that SF wants so badly.

Now---if the Cardinals really want him---do they try to move down? Possibly. But---trust me, they can't move too far down.

Yet, Fleener might be deemed so valuable that they would stay put and grab him at #13.

While it appears the Cardinals are enamored with G David DeCastro---I am willing to go out on a limb and say that with our coaches and what they want, Coby Fleener is more valuable to them.

Plus, this guy, like Gronkowski is a red zone beast---10 TDs last year and I think he has 7 or 8 the year before.

Not knowing anything about Fleener I looked up some info. He was second string all conference. One site said he may go in the first round which sort of says is well below our #13 slot. There are going to be guys rated by the so called experts much higher on the BPA board when we draft so do we go out on a limb and outsmart the other teams or take the best player available such a David DeCastro? As I said I do not know anything about him but I tend to take the best player available unless they are very close and then I go for need. I think we will do well enough with Todd Heap this year but who knows what we can get next year at TE. Me, I want that Alabama RB who want be on the board. He will be to RBs what Luck will be to QB's IMHO> I watched him all year and he is a man's man.

 

[Duckjake]

The Cards already have two good TEs in King and Housler. King caught 27 passes last season and reading the review on Fleener on Walterfootball he sounds like a carbon copy of Housler so there's no way the Cards draft Fleener.

Oh wait, they had Hightower and Beanie and drafted Ryan Williams. So who the heck knows? Especially when you have an Engineer drawing the draft board.

 

[JAB]

TE first round number 13 with the needs we have yet to address? Absolutely positively no way. We don't even have a second round pick and were going to use pick 13 on a TE?

 

[kerouac9]

The Cardinals passed up HUGE trade offers to stay put and select Patrick Peterson, whom, as we saw, is a game changer. I think that the Cardinals are now focused in that manner---they want game changers early.

Evidence? I remember hearing Graves say that he "got calls" to trade out of that slot, but nothing about what was on offer. If this is true, I'd love to see the link.

 

[Buckybird]

The Cards already have two good TEs in King and Housler. King caught 27 passes last season and reading the review on Fleener on Walterfootball he sounds like a carbon copy of Housler so there's no way the Cards draft Fleener.

I still think King is highly overated in our board. He's pretty slow, doesn't stretch the field & all but disappered in the back 1/2 of the season. I like Housler, but I think he has questionable hands.

 

[Catfish]

Mitch-----I find this scenario very interesting. I must confess that my first impulse was to laugh it off, but the more I read your post, the more I felt that it has merit. This could indeed be a workable arrangement for a new offense without paying a lot of money-----and, as you say, it could also become a blow to Jim Harbaugh and the 9'rs, who just might want to place Fleener on the opposite end of the line from Vernon Davis.

I could see Whiz and company making a move like this, but not at #13. I believe that the whole Cardinal Nation would revolt, and burn down the Practice Facility in Tempe, or maybe even the Nest in Glendale. If it were to happen, then I believe that they must find someone to trade down with, but not so far down as to create fear in the 9'rs war room, which might cause them to jump ahead of us to snatch him. Quite a number of people feel that a trade down is possible for the Cardinals, and dropping into the vicinity of the early 20's is not likely to arouse suspicions in San Francisco. Everyone is aware that we do not have a 2nd round pick, and that we might be open to trading back for the purpose of obtaining additional picks, if certain people are off the board when we are due to select at 13. With that in mind, I thought I would study some of the ramifications of doing just that.

I agree that this is a really solid way to attempt to free up Fitzgerald. The Pats have been doing this for a while now, and doing it successfully. Harbaugh has shown that he is no dummy when it comes to producing a hard playing and successful football team. He might just wish to copy New England. Could we do this without taking Fleener, not likely. As solid as Todd Heap is when healthy, he is one trip across the middle from being on the bench again. King was a surprise last year, but has not got the potential of Fleener as a receiver over the middle and in the red zone. Housler is coming on, and would be a great person to put into two tight-end sets. With Dray in the mix, we might have enough tight ends to complete a season with this sort of offense. So, lets say we do this-----what happens with our O-line. Will it be strong enough and deep enough to withstand a full season.

Since either taking Fleener at #13, (or by trading down), will mean passing on David DeCastro if he is there, we must look at what happens on the O-line. Say we are successful in signing Demetrius Bell in free agency to play LT. We could start Levi at right tackle, and still have Colledge and Snyder at guard, and Sendlein at center. Batiste has been re-signed, and could be a back-up at tackle, and Bridges could back-up either tackle, or either guard spot. Bartholamew could back up center or guard. There might be one or two O-linemen further down in the draft that could be taken as developmental players.

What happens if we fail to land Bell in free agency though. Now Levi has to start at LT, which is ok with me because he appears to have turned the corner there. The problem, now is to either start and aging Bridges at RT, or an untested Batiste, or Snyder, who played tackle in college. If we start Snyder, Bridges would more than likely be the RG, and Batiste would back up the tackles, with Bartholamew backing up the guards and center. If Snyder stays at guard, then Batiste can compete for the RT slot with Bridges. This is cutting it very thin along the line, though it may work. I would not feel real good about it though.

We might be successful in getting an early 20's second round pick out of the deal to pair with a late rounder, but more likely we will get something like another 3rd and a 5th or some such deal. I have not looked at the points board to see how this would stack for the trade.

It would be nice to be able to put a TE into the mix with Housler so that defenses would have to play safeties up the middle, instead of over the top of Fitz. It would also have a couple of extra blockers in the huddle already if we should decide to run with Beanie or Williams. The surprise might be a game changer for us in either case.

To me, this scenario has merit, especially since our HC was also a TE and must surely know the havoc that such an offense could cause for defenses. The Pats know this, as do the Giants. Maybe Harbaugh does too now, and beating him to the punch would be fun.
I would like to see a lot more discussion on this by the board. I am sure that there is enough football knowledge available here to point out the flaws, as well as the strengths of making such a move on draft day. It may or may not be feasible, but the discussion will surely be lively.

Yet to be discussed-----what happens when we pass over addressing our O-line or a pass-rusher in the first round yet again??????????

 

[Duckjake]

I still think King is highly overated in our board. He's pretty slow, doesn't stretch the field & all but disappered in the back 1/2 of the season. I like Housler, but I think he has questionable hands.

King didn't really disappear the Cards just started targeting Heap. King had 18 receptions while Heap was out. King is a blocker first and receiver 2nd. One thing about a guy like him is that if a pass is thrown to him it is usually completed.

 

[john h]

A couple more points:

1. When you attack the middle the ball comes out faster---which is exactly what the coaches need out of Kevin Kolb and to a somewhat lesser degree, John Skelton---and it puts less pressure on the offensive line (which is why---I believe that a player like Fleener may be considered more valuable than a guard or a tackle. And let's get this straight---the Cardinals want to throw the ball---that's their philosophy---and they will do all they can to throw it, rather than run it.

2. As Kurt Warner always said, a good NFL offense is predicated on exploiting mismatches for the defense. If you have to fast big targets at TE, you are creating the mismatch advantage that you believe will give you the edge to win games.

Jackie Smith where are you?

 

[john h]

A couple more points:

1. When you attack the middle the ball comes out faster---which is exactly what the coaches need out of Kevin Kolb and to a somewhat lesser degree, John Skelton---and it puts less pressure on the offensive line (which is why---I believe that a player like Fleener may be considered more valuable than a guard or a tackle. And let's get this straight---the Cardinals want to throw the ball---that's their philosophy---and they will do all they can to throw it, rather than run it.

2. As Kurt Warner always said, a good NFL offense is predicated on exploiting mismatches for the defense. If you have to fast big targets at TE, you are creating the mismatch advantage that you believe will give you the edge to win games.

Mitch: You may be right on but based on the odds of anyone making an accurate prediction for who the Cards will take I will give you a six pack of beer if you are correct. If you are wrong you do nothing. This is only for you as if enough guys make a prediction someone will be correct. I predict the Colts will take Andrew Luck. That is my one and only prediction. I guess I could predict Washington will take RGIII but I will just stick with my 99.9999% chance of being right about Andrew Luck. My prediction percentage will be much better than Mel Kipper.