Will Horton = a better DRC?

[CardLogic]

You can find a bunch of them at Ted's Hot Dogs in Tempe (McClintock and Broadway) any given Sunday during football season.

Very good hot dogs too! The best in town IMO.

Great dogs - got to have them with the hot sauce (pepper relish)!!!

 

[kerouac9]

Seeing as though the coaches won't get to see anyone practice before the draft, they'll certainly decide whether or not they need to add talent to the secondary before they see them in practice.

I think the secondary will be much lower than most people think, as far as needs heading into the draft.

Yeah, but for using a Top 5 pick on the player? When we use picks that high, we're usually replacing a high-profile talent (Leonard Davis, Edge James, etc.). There isn't a clear need at the position of cornerback that there is at outside linebacker or quarterback or inside linebacker, etc.

What they'll see on tape is enough physical talent that they won't need to agitate for better talent in order to be competitive.

Which is exactly what I said before, if you'd been reading carefully.

 

[Stout]

Yeah, but for using a Top 5 pick on the player? When we use picks that high, we're usually replacing a high-profile talent (Leonard Davis, Edge James, etc.). There isn't a clear need at the position of cornerback that there is at outside linebacker or quarterback or inside linebacker, etc.

What they'll see on tape is enough physical talent that they won't need to agitate for better talent in order to be competitive.

Which is exactly what I said before, if you'd been reading carefully.

Eh, you harped on the practice thing, so I responded to it. That's all.

 

[Duckjake]

Eh, you harped on the practice thing, so I responded to it. That's all.

Eh you were just bitching to be bitching you no account flag bearer.

Off to the Upper Deck Bar with you.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

To answer the question at the top of this thread....

NO.

DRC will be in the doghouse early, and be gone by next year.

Horton said in his interview, "Big men that can run, Little men that can hit."

DRC cannot hit. Dunsky.

I hope Patrick Peterson is there at #5.

But, I think Horton will make Toler better.

 

[TJ]

To answer the question at the top of this thread....

NO.

DRC will be in the doghouse early, and be gone by next year.

Horton said in his interview, "Big men that can run, Little men that can hit."

DRC cannot hit. Dunsky.

I hope Patrick Peterson is there at #5.

But, I think Horton will make Toler better.

So you think that a player who is unarguably the best corner on the team, who analyst like Deion Sanders rate as a top 5 CB in the league and has proven several times to be a threat on his side of the field, is going to be in the dog house?

I think Horton will work with DRC more so than anyone on the time on maturation and motivation skills to keep him focused on the game and motivated.

IMO, one bad season has really set off too many people on this board. Mountain out of a molehill. IMO, almost everyone on the team had a down year. People just like to pick on DRC. Im confident he will rebound to his exceptional level that he displayed in late 2008 and all of 2009.

 

[desertdawg]

So you think that a player who is unarguably the best corner on the team, who analyst like Deion Sanders rate as a top 5 CB in the league and has proven several times to be a threat on his side of the field, is going to be in the dog house?

I think Horton will work with DRC more so than anyone on the time on maturation and motivation skills to keep him focused on the game and motivated.

IMO, one bad season has really set off too many people on this board. Mountain out of a molehill. IMO, almost everyone on the team had a down year. People just like to pick on DRC. Im confident he will rebound to his exceptional level that he displayed in late 2008 and all of 2009.

Yup, I think DRC has the best chance out of anybody to benefit from this hire. I don't know how much tackling fuel he will have, but he can learn a lot if he listens to Horton. I'm talking Probowl, where you don't have to tackle, and showboating is a must.

 

[joko4]

" I want big guys that can run, and a small guys that hit " Ray Horton

Sounds like Toler and Adams are the ones that could shine.

 

[kerouac9]

To answer the question at the top of this thread....

NO.

DRC will be in the doghouse early, and be gone by next year.

Horton said in his interview, "Big men that can run, Little men that can hit."

DRC cannot hit. Dunsky.

I hope Patrick Peterson is there at #5.

But, I think Horton will make Toler better.

Honestly, if that happens, then this coaching staff does deserve to all be fired. All of them, including the scouting staff and general manager.

If we don't retain Larry Fitzgerald this year, and we cut or trade DRC, we would only have 3 first-round picks on our roster--and 0 first-round picks signed to second or third contracts.

 

[Stout]

Eh you were just bitching to be bitching you no account flag bearer.

Off to the Upper Deck Bar with you.

Stop whining, Texas sissy

 

[Chopper0080]

Honestly, if that happens, then this coaching staff does deserve to all be fired. All of them, including the scouting staff and general manager.

If we don't retain Larry Fitzgerald this year, and we cut or trade DRC, we would only have 3 first-round picks on our roster--and 0 first-round picks signed to second or third contracts.

I get where your coming from, but that is why teams really craze stability, because turnover creates scheme changes and scheme changes can hurt player retention.

I would guess that DRC isn't as safe on this roster as we may believe that he is for a couple reasons.

1-He is terrible covering in the zone scheme. Just looks lost which is normal from a CB from a small school that has great athleticism. He has been told his entire career to lock down receivers and so he has never really learned how to play a zone scheme. Ideally you would say that this is something that he can learn, but DRC has not shown the willingness to study and develop the weaknesses in his game.

2-He does not show an interest in playing physical. The age where you can just be a cover guy is quickly fading away. In today's NFL you have to at least be willing to tackle, especially in a zone scheme, and DRC has yet to show that level of effort.

3-He consistently shows poor effort, and a disregard for the minor details. He plays with poor technique, he makes stupid gambles in coverage and almost seems to create more holes than he fills. A major part of the zone coverage scheme is film study and field awareness, neither of these are DRC's strengths.

4-He will be a free agent in 2 years. This wouldn't be an issue if DRC didn't seem to have such a high opinion of his own play. Mark my words DRC will want a top dollar contract whether he has earned it or not. More to the point, with upcoming extensions for Fitz and Calais Campbell, DRC might price himself out of our plans for the production that we get in return.

The Pats moved forward from Asante Samuel for similar reasons to these, and we need to keep our opinions of DRC in perspective. He has top notch athleticism, but if he is not willing to become a hard working, top effort, team player then we would just be feeding the problem on defense rather than fixing it. I hope that the Cardinals can get DRC to develop into a top NFL corner, but I don't see DRC putting in that level of effort.

It would not shock me to see the Cardinals take Peterson at #5, and then once the CBA is signed sign Ike Taylor and trade DRC. You could still pull a 1st rounder for DRC, and Ike Taylor could help develop Toler and Peterson into a top CB duo in Horton's zone scheme.

 

[Shane]

1-He is terrible covering in the zone scheme. Just looks lost which is normal from a CB from a small school that has great athleticism. He has been told his entire career to lock down receivers and so he has never really learned how to play a zone scheme. Ideally you would say that this is something that he can learn, but DRC has not shown the willingness to study and develop the weaknesses in his game.

Sorry bro but I call BS on this whole paragraph . DRC has been in the league for 3 full season's. That's 3 training camps where they go through an ungodly amount of MANDATORY film study and tons of practice. Not counting what happens in season. If the kid doesn't have the brains to pick up and run a zone protection scheme by now he isnt going to. I disagree that he has just been told to go cover that guy and lock him down. Thus the reason for his struggles "in the zone scheme"

Like I said earlier. "You just can't fix stupid"

The rest I give a big

 

[Hypothesis]

Honestly, if that happens, then this coaching staff does deserve to all be fired. All of them, including the scouting staff and general manager.

If we don't retain Larry Fitzgerald this year, and we cut or trade DRC, we would only have 3 first-round picks on our roster--and 0 first-round picks signed to second or third contracts.

I like Whis and most the coaches he has...but I've been thinking for a number of years now that Graves, Keim and the rest of the scouting department has to go.

Graves watches zero film on guys and Keim strikes me as the kind of guy that will easily take chances on a player in hopes that he'll turn out and make Keim look like a genius, just so he can advance his career, as opposed to taking a slightly safer pick who would probably fit the team's scheme a little better.

 

[Chopper0080]

Sorry bro but I call BS on this whole paragraph . DRC has been in the league for 3 full season's. That's 3 training camps where they go through an ungodly amount of MANDATORY film study and tons of practice. Not counting what happens in season. If the kid doesn't have the brains to pick up and run a zone protection scheme by now he isnt going to. I disagree that he has just been told to go cover that guy and lock him down. Thus the reason for his struggles "in the zone scheme"

Like I said earlier. "You just can't fix stupid"

The rest I give a big

It's not that he hasn't been asked to in the pros, it is that he never had to learn in college, and just started being really exposed to the zone schemes over the past 3 years.

Over the last 3 seasons I have seen DRC excel when he is locked onto a single man and struggle when he is asked to drop into a zone, where his inexperience and lack of film study lead him to be lost. I think that you can develop feel for zone coverage, but it requires a ton of film study so that you can learn teams route combination's. I have yet to see any level of dedication from DRC that leads me to believe that he will change his work habits.

As far as the "mandatory" film study. DRC sits in the room, but I have doubts on his focus while he is in there.

 

[kerouac9]

I get where your coming from, but that is why teams really craze stability, because turnover creates scheme changes and scheme changes can hurt player retention.

I would guess that DRC isn't as safe on this roster as we may believe that he is for a couple reasons.

1-He is terrible covering in the zone scheme. Just looks lost which is normal from a CB from a small school that has great athleticism. He has been told his entire career to lock down receivers and so he has never really learned how to play a zone scheme. Ideally you would say that this is something that he can learn, but DRC has not shown the willingness to study and develop the weaknesses in his game.

2-He does not show an interest in playing physical. The age where you can just be a cover guy is quickly fading away. In today's NFL you have to at least be willing to tackle, especially in a zone scheme, and DRC has yet to show that level of effort.

3-He consistently shows poor effort, and a disregard for the minor details. He plays with poor technique, he makes stupid gambles in coverage and almost seems to create more holes than he fills. A major part of the zone coverage scheme is film study and field awareness, neither of these are DRC's strengths.

4-He will be a free agent in 2 years. This wouldn't be an issue if DRC didn't seem to have such a high opinion of his own play. Mark my words DRC will want a top dollar contract whether he has earned it or not. More to the point, with upcoming extensions for Fitz and Calais Campbell, DRC might price himself out of our plans for the production that we get in return.

The Pats moved forward from Asante Samuel for similar reasons to these, and we need to keep our opinions of DRC in perspective. He has top notch athleticism, but if he is not willing to become a hard working, top effort, team player then we would just be feeding the problem on defense rather than fixing it. I hope that the Cardinals can get DRC to develop into a top NFL corner, but I don't see DRC putting in that level of effort.

It would not shock me to see the Cardinals take Peterson at #5, and then once the CBA is signed sign Ike Taylor and trade DRC. You could still pull a 1st rounder for DRC, and Ike Taylor could help develop Toler and Peterson into a top CB duo in Horton's zone scheme.

But if you have a coaching staff that can't develop a single first-round pick in four seasons (Levi Brown, DRC, Beanie, D. Williams [pending]) then you have to start over. It's not going to work out in the long term, and you'd be looking at a new coaching staff (3 year investment at least) with a #1 overall pick and the time for them to work together.

If DRC is a top-notch man corner, then you don't ask him to play zone. The Jets don't put Revis out there in Cover-3, because that takes away what he does best. You build a defense by putting your best players in the position to make play/do what they do best. The Cards best 3 defensive players right now are Dockett, DRC, and either Calais Campbell or Kerry Rhodes. All the schemes should support those guys.

I think that a lot of DRC's disinterest this season had more to do with not being a competitive team than him being bad. DRC's not a leader on the field like Champ Bailey or Nmandi is; he's not necessarily a self-motivator. If the team is down by 10 points and there's zero chance of the offense likely even scoring that much, I don't blame him for not trying to get hurt.

Regardless, if DRC is a top 10 corner in the NFL (and I believe that even you have to acknowledge that), then you have to lock him up. The Cards wandered in the cornerback wilderness for 10 years after Aeneas Williams left.

I kind of want the Cards to take Peterson at #5 for the reasons that you outlined in another thread. Especially his contributions in the return game. Having DRC isn't going to turn me off of drafting a CB if they're the best player available; but the Pats moving away from Asante Samuel and into 30th ranking for pass defense doesn't seem to be a very good argument.

 

[Chopper0080]

But if you have a coaching staff that can't develop a single first-round pick in four seasons (Levi Brown, DRC, Beanie, D. Williams [pending]) then you have to start over. It's not going to work out in the long term, and you'd be looking at a new coaching staff (3 year investment at least) with a #1 overall pick and the time for them to work together.

If DRC is a top-notch man corner, then you don't ask him to play zone. The Jets don't put Revis out there in Cover-3, because that takes away what he does best. You build a defense by putting your best players in the position to make play/do what they do best. The Cards best 3 defensive players right now are Dockett, DRC, and either Calais Campbell or Kerry Rhodes. All the schemes should support those guys.

I think that a lot of DRC's disinterest this season had more to do with not being a competitive team than him being bad. DRC's not a leader on the field like Champ Bailey or Nmandi is; he's not necessarily a self-motivator. If the team is down by 10 points and there's zero chance of the offense likely even scoring that much, I don't blame him for not trying to get hurt.

Regardless, if DRC is a top 10 corner in the NFL (and I believe that even you have to acknowledge that), then you have to lock him up. The Cards wandered in the cornerback wilderness for 10 years after Aeneas Williams left.

I kind of want the Cards to take Peterson at #5 for the reasons that you outlined in another thread. Especially his contributions in the return game. Having DRC isn't going to turn me off of drafting a CB if they're the best player available; but the Pats moving away from Asante Samuel and into 30th ranking for pass defense doesn't seem to be a very good argument.

I really hope that DRC turns it around, and can find a place in in Horton's scheme. I know that he has the talent to do so, but I wonder if he has the drive to be a top cornerback.

I also do not believe that the Cards should pass or take Patrick Peterson based on DRC, because I see a need either way. I just believe that folks argue that we don't have a need at the CB position, and with DRC's recent regression, that just isn't true.

As for the Pats and Samuel...touche'.

 

[Hypothesis]

I really hope that DRC turns it around, and can find a place in in Horton's scheme. I know that he has the talent to do so, but I wonder if he has the drive to be a top cornerback.

I also do not believe that the Cards should pass or take Patrick Peterson based on DRC, because I see a need either way. I just believe that folks argue that we don't have a need at the CB position, and with DRC's recent regression, that just isn't true.

As for the Pats and Samuel...touche'.

I fully believe we need a CB, but there are still going to be some very good corners available in this draft after Patrick Peterson. After the first 2 or 3 pass rushers that can be used in a 3-4, there is very slim pickings. CB is much more deep in this draft than capable pass rushers. Heck, the perfect CB for this scheme and an Ike Taylor clone in Ras-I Dowling could be had in the 3rd. Not to mention possible FA like Richard Marshall.

In my opinion, there is a much higher premium in this draft for a pass rusher than PP7.

 

[Chopper0080]

I fully believe we need a CB, but there are still going to be some very good corners available in this draft after Patrick Peterson. After the first 2 or 3 pass rushers that can be used in a 3-4, there is very slim pickings. CB is much more deep in this draft than capable pass rushers. Heck, the perfect CB for this scheme and an Ike Taylor clone in Ras-I Dowling could be had in the 3rd. Not to mention possible FA like Richard Marshall.

In my opinion, there is a much higher premium in this draft for a pass rusher than PP7.

Patrick Peterson in round 1.
Brooks Reed in round 2.

Problem solved.

 

[Hypothesis]

Patrick Peterson in round 1.
Brooks Reed in round 2.

Problem solved.

heh...Brooks Reed? Sorry...he is a massive drop off.

 

[Chopper0080]

heh...Brooks Reed? Sorry...he is a massive drop off.

If we are looking for a WOLB in a 3-4 which is what both Houston and Quinn project to, then the drop off isn't really that much. He has played some standing up, is a proven leader, showed well against top talent at the senior bowl, and is less of a risk at the top of the 2nd than Quinn is at the top of the 1st.

Where I get confused on the arguments for Quinn and Houston, and therefore against Von Miller is in what hole we are looking to fill. People have argued that we already have a light OLB in Schofield so taking Von Miller would be redundant. Yet, the same detractors for passing on Von Miller are the ones who argue for taking Quinn/Houston maintain that either player won't be used in coverage as much. So who are we looking to replace?

Porter was generally used as the pass rusher last season, and his primary backup is Schofield. So taking a pure rusher would in essence be replacing Schofield. If we are looking to replace Haggans, who was used in coverage more and also the lighter of the two (6'4" 243), then why isn't coverage ability and the ability to play standing up more of a concern?

How this projects to Brooks Reed is he adds another pass rusher who we can supplement with Schofield, and can play with his hand in the dirt in nickel packages. Because of this, spending a 2nd rounder on a rotational pass rusher to supplement Schofield makes more sense than using a top 5 pick to supplant Schofield. Moreover, if it isn't a concern to supplant Schofield, why would you argue that Von Miller's size is an issue because Schofield is also undersized?

 

[TJ]

heh...Brooks Reed? Sorry...he is a massive drop off.

Love Brooks Reed (UofA connection )

But he could be had in the 3rd round.

2nd round is a bit of a reach

 

[Hypothesis]

If we are looking for a WOLB in a 3-4 which is what both Houston and Quinn project to, then the drop off isn't really that much. He has played some standing up, is a proven leader, showed well against top talent at the senior bowl, and is less of a risk at the top of the 2nd than Quinn is at the top of the 1st.

Where I get confused on the arguments for Quinn and Houston, and therefore against Von Miller is in what hole we are looking to fill. People have argued that we already have a light OLB in Schofield so taking Von Miller would be redundant. Yet, the same detractors for passing on Von Miller are the ones who argue for taking Quinn/Houston maintain that either player won't be used in coverage as much. So who are we looking to replace?

Porter was generally used as the pass rusher last season, and his primary backup is Schofield. So taking a pure rusher would in essence be replacing Schofield. If we are looking to replace Haggans, who was used in coverage more and also the lighter of the two (6'4" 243), then why isn't coverage ability and the ability to play standing up more of a concern?

How this projects to Brooks Reed is he adds another pass rusher who we can supplement with Schofield, and can play with his hand in the dirt in nickel packages. Because of this, spending a 2nd rounder on a rotational pass rusher to supplement Schofield makes more sense than using a top 5 pick to supplant Schofield. Moreover, if it isn't a concern to supplant Schofield, why would you argue that Von Miller's size is an issue because Schofield is also undersized?

O'brien Schofield was listed at 6'2 231 lbs...quit a bit lighter than Haggans. Schofield projects and played mainly at WOLB when he saw playing time. We don't need another small LB to play SOLB. We need to get bigger so we can rely more on our front 7 to stop the run and so we can spend less time with 8 men in the box allowing our DBs to be exposed and burned.

As for SOLB, my pick there is Robert Quinn, because he is big, fast and sturdy. He has the moves, technique, burst and body control to rush the passer and after watching him on film, he definitely has the fluidity in his hips to be able to turn and drop into coverage. Yes he's never played standing up, but he has dropped into coverage and he has well above average recognition skills. He diagnoses run vs pass extremely well.

In Lebeau's system that Horton is bringing here, your LBs have to do everything well. They have to be big, strong. They have to be able to rush the passer, drop into coverage and tackle reliably. They have to be stout against the run. We're not looking for a player to primarily play the run or the pass, they need to do both. OLBs need to be able to play as ILB and ILBs need to be able to play OLB. Watch them closely and you'll notice that Lebeau lines his LBs up all over the field.

As for Brooks Reed...he did good in college and he has great size. I absolutely would not mind picking him up in the second to third round, I think we need to draft 2-3 OLBs, as long as we get Quinn in the first. But there is a very large drop off from Quinn to Reed as compared to Peterson to Ras-I Dowling, Justin Rogers or Korey Lindsey.

 

[Chopper0080]

O'brien Schofield was listed at 6'2 231 lbs...quit a bit lighter than Haggans. Schofield projects and played mainly at WOLB when he saw playing time. We don't need another small LB to play SOLB. We need to get bigger so we can rely more on our front 7 to stop the run and so we can spend less time with 8 men in the box allowing our DBs to be exposed and burned.

As for SOLB, my pick there is Robert Quinn, because he is big, fast and sturdy. He has the moves, technique, burst and body control to rush the passer and after watching him on film, he definitely has the fluidity in his hips to be able to turn and drop into coverage. Yes he's never played standing up, but he has dropped into coverage and he has well above average recognition skills. He diagnoses run vs pass extremely well.

In Lebeau's system that Horton is bringing here, your LBs have to do everything well. They have to be big, strong. They have to be able to rush the passer, drop into coverage and tackle reliably. They have to be stout against the run. We're not looking for a player to primarily play the run or the pass, they need to do both. OLBs need to be able to play as ILB and ILBs need to be able to play OLB. Watch them closely and you'll notice that Lebeau lines his LBs up all over the field.

As for Brooks Reed...he did good in college and he has great size. I absolutely would not mind picking him up in the second to third round, I think we need to draft 2-3 OLBs, as long as we get Quinn in the first. But there is a very large drop off from Quinn to Reed as compared to Peterson to Ras-I Dowling, Justin Rogers or Korey Lindsey.

Disagree with this statement, but I understand your point.

Why I disagree is that you are trying to say that arguably the best player in this draft in Patrick Peterson, who has played every game over the past 3 seasons, and is one of the most dynamic players in college football is closer in talent to a solid but unspectacular CB coming off an injury riddled senior season that was ended prematurely by a fractured ankle than Brooks Reed is to Robert Quinn. The same Robert Quinn who has essentially played 1.5 seasons of productive college football in the past 3 years compared to Brooks Reed who has only missed 6 games over 4 seasons and has produced 6+ sacks over two of those seasons. More than that, you could argue that Reed's most productive season was his 2010 season where he was used standing up, was shown to be productive doing so.

I understand the potential of Robert Quinn, but to be honest, potential is all that he has shown. He is a fantastic athlete, but has shown nothing past that. He has always played DE, even back to High School, and has never shown the instincts that are required to play linebacker. In his best season in college in which he totaled 11 sacks, 6 of those came in 2 games against Duke and Virginia neither of which are very talented programs. The other 5 sacks came against East Carolina(2), Georgia Southern, The Citadel, and Boston College.

I am sorry but I just see question marks with Robert Quinn and Ras I Dowling, while I am pretty sure of what I am getting in Patrick Peterson and Brooks Reed.

 

[Hypothesis]

Disagree with this statement, but I understand your point.

Why I disagree is that you are trying to say that arguably the best player in this draft in Patrick Peterson, who has played every game over the past 3 seasons, and is one of the most dynamic players in college football is closer in talent to a solid but unspectacular CB coming off an injury riddled senior season that was ended prematurely by a fractured ankle than Brooks Reed is to Robert Quinn. The same Robert Quinn who has essentially played 1.5 seasons of productive college football in the past 3 years compared to Brooks Reed who has only missed 6 games over 4 seasons and has produced 6+ sacks over two of those seasons. More than that, you could argue that Reed's most productive season was his 2010 season where he was used standing up, was shown to be productive doing so.

I understand the potential of Robert Quinn, but to be honest, potential is all that he has shown. He is a fantastic athlete, but has shown nothing past that. He has always played DE, even back to High School, and has never shown the instincts that are required to play linebacker. In his best season in college in which he totaled 11 sacks, 6 of those came in 2 games against Duke and Virginia neither of which are very talented programs. The other 5 sacks came against East Carolina(2), Georgia Southern, The Citadel, and Boston College.

I am sorry but I just see question marks with Robert Quinn and Ras I Dowling, while I am pretty sure of what I am getting in Patrick Peterson and Brooks Reed.

There are question marks about any player that comes out. When people talk about Robert Quinn's production, they mostly look at stats while failing to look at the other things. Things like opposing teams almost constantly double teaming him and sometimes also using a RB to chip effectively using 3 players on one, meaning that other defenders are free to make plays. Things like him being very disciplined in backside contain and following almost perfectly to the scheme. Things like teams running away from his side, even though many on these boards perceive he is not very good against the run. Robert Quinn, with all that talent on the NC defense, was the one that opposing teams were gameplanning to neutralize. And sure, him never having played without his hand in the ground is something to be concerned about, but at the same time, James Harrison never played standing up. Lamar Woodley never played standing up. Jason Worilds never played standing up. DeMarcus Ware, Mario Williams either. But the scouts saw that they had the tools to do so.

Brooks Reed on the other hand, was almost always blocked one on one and offenses never seemed to gameplan to take him out even though he racked up some pretty good numbers. He's not particularly fast or strong. He does play with good intensity and heart and he has a good motor, but the tools he has to work with are quite limited.

As for Ras-I Dowling being solid yet unspectacular, I disagree there. Coming into the season, many scouts had him rated just under Peterson and neck and neck with Prince. He didn't rack up a ton of stats in his career, but that is simply because teams did not throw at him. Ras-I is special and the only reason why he may not get drafted in the first is because of the injuries, not because he lacks the tools or ability.

Besides, there is a reason that it has been common belief in the NFL that the ability to rush the passer is one of if not the most important aspect to a defense besides stopping the run...because it's proven to be true.

We've neglected to add any impact pass rusher since Simeon Rice and it has really turned around and bit us, especially since we made the switch to the 3-4. If we want our defense to be a legit defense, we can't neglect it anymore.

 

[Chopper0080]

There are question marks about any player that comes out. When people talk about Robert Quinn's production, they mostly look at stats while failing to look at the other things. Things like opposing teams almost constantly double teaming him and sometimes also using a RB to chip effectively using 3 players on one, meaning that other defenders are free to make plays. Things like him being very disciplined in backside contain and following almost perfectly to the scheme. Things like teams running away from his side, even though many on these boards perceive he is not very good against the run. Robert Quinn, with all that talent on the NC defense, was the one that opposing teams were gameplanning to neutralize. And sure, him never having played without his hand in the ground is something to be concerned about, but at the same time, James Harrison never played standing up. Lamar Woodley never played standing up. Jason Worilds never played standing up. DeMarcus Ware, Mario Williams either. But the scouts saw that they had the tools to do so.

Brooks Reed on the other hand, was almost always blocked one on one and offenses never seemed to gameplan to take him out even though he racked up some pretty good numbers. He's not particularly fast or strong. He does play with good intensity and heart and he has a good motor, but the tools he has to work with are quite limited.

As for Ras-I Dowling being solid yet unspectacular, I disagree there. Coming into the season, many scouts had him rated just under Peterson and neck and neck with Prince. He didn't rack up a ton of stats in his career, but that is simply because teams did not throw at him. Ras-I is special and the only reason why he may not get drafted in the first is because of the injuries, not because he lacks the tools or ability.

Besides, there is a reason that it has been common belief in the NFL that the ability to rush the passer is one of if not the most important aspect to a defense besides stopping the run...because it's proven to be true.

We've neglected to add any impact pass rusher since Simeon Rice and it has really turned around and bit us, especially since we made the switch to the 3-4. If we want our defense to be a legit defense, we can't neglect it anymore.

A couple points here:
1-James Harrison: Was an undrafted free agent whom the Steelers signed in 2004 after the Ravens cut him twice.
2-Lamarr Woodley: Played both a stand up OLB and down DE in Michigan's defense depending on the formation, and was a 2nd round pick.
3-Jason Worilds: 2nd round pick.
4-DeMarcus Ware: Very true, no end in college but was signed out of High School as an All Area LB and WR.
5: Mario Williams: Was drafted as an end and has played as an end for his entire career. I am not sure where he fits in your argument.

As for Quinn and the NC defense, one good statistical season on a very talented team. I have a hard time believing that college coaches spent the 2009 offseason game planning for a Soph coming off a 2 sack season. In season yeah, they probably saw him flash skill, but on a defense with Cam Thomas, Marvin Austin, Bruce Carter, Quan Sturdivant, Kendric Bruney, and Deunta Williams they had ton of players to worry about. Your "they targeted" argument is weak on a defense stacked like that one was.

And lastly Dowling. Yes he had a very good career at Virginia, but he is coming off a fractured ankle. For a player whose best abilities are his chaneg of direction, and acceleration, this is a huge reason for concern. Dowling was never a top speed CB, but his strength was in that change of direction and acceleration which he may never get back.

Yes we need to draft pass rushers, but I believe that you can burn yourself more often than not drafting projection players with limited college production with the number 5 pick in the draft. Especially those who have never player the position before. Take the Pittsburgh approach, take projection linebackers outside of the first round where you can give them time to develop, and where they won't be set you back years if they can't make the conversion.