Will the Suns make a trade before or at the deadline this year?

Do you think the the Suns will make a trade before or at the deadline this season?

  • Yes, I believe they will.

    Votes: 11 52.4%
  • No, they’ll try and make the most of what they have.

    Votes: 2 9.5%
  • Not sure but I hope they do.

    Votes: 8 38.1%
  • Not sure but I hope they don’t.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    21

sunsfan88

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The problem is that there are just too many of them, period. We have lots of good players on good contracts that could reasonably command playing time. We need a star player. But we all know that. Its just hard to find one.

Just like in the garden, you have to remove some plants in order to let others grow. There are some tough decisions ahead if the right trade opportunity does not come along.

For instance, I cannot see Archie fitting in on this team if we also have Goran, IT, and Bledsoe. In fact, even if we move one of the three pg's I do not see a future on the this team for both Archie and Ennis. Its going to be one or the other, not both.

Same thing at SF. Green is obviously going at some point. But there is no way that PJ, TJ, and Marcus will all develop like they should on this same squad. At least one of those guys is going to have to go, one way or another. It would be a crime to let a player like TJ rot at the end of this bench.

The PF and C position is probably OK as far as depth. It looks like we are committed to Len as the starter, but will have to make a change if he does not pan out. Plumlee is fine as a backup as is Wright. Markieff is fine as a starter, but we could make an improvement there.

Great points.

We drafted players and then we gave fat long term deals to players who play the same position that we drafted.

Guys like Ennis and Goodwin have Kendall Marshall type "trade filler/throw-in" value now in terms of trade value.

I would like to see us move these guys to teams where they will get an opportunity to play because like you, I don't think it will ever happen here.
 

Ronin

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I think they'll make a trade, and I believe Goran Dragic is the one that is going to be moved.
 

BC867

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They may make a trade, but it won't be a significant one. This roster is so screwed up that it will take far more than one or two minor trades to fix that. Outside of Len, they have no real assets to use to acquire anyone of any real significance.
So true! Tweaking the Suns roster isn't going to change the position they are putting themselves in. Their fifteen minutes of fame is beginning to catch up with them. It will be revealed more and more during crunch time.

Three lead/scoring Guards with no one truly running the team offense. Twins thinking they have double-the-power and can get away with anything.

Too many players apparently not taking the Coach seriously, while he pontificates to the Press about how things should be.

Sadly, this 3-ring circus which is becoming a laughingstock to the NBA isn't building for the future.

It seems like it will take blowing it up big time, starting from scratch (including the Front Office and coaching staff) and working seriously to build a solid professional basketball team.

But the Suns history of striving for style over substance indicates that this is not going to happen.
 

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So true! Tweaking the Suns roster isn't going to change the position they are putting themselves in. Their fifteen minutes of fame is beginning to catch up with them. It will be revealed more and more during crunch time.

Three lead/scoring Guards with no one truly running the team offense. Twins thinking they have double-the-power and can get away with anything.

Too many players apparently not taking the Coach seriously, while he pontificates to the Press about how things should be.

Sadly, this 3-ring circus which is becoming a laughingstock to the NBA isn't building for the future.

It seems like it will take blowing it up big time, starting from scratch (including the Front Office and coaching staff) and working seriously to build a solid professional basketball team.

But the Suns history of striving for style over substance indicates that this is not going to happen.

I do not share you vision of apocalypse. The Suns do need to focus on defense and have an offensive strategy that goes beyond a PG making the decisions at the top of the key. I'm really disappointed in the Suns coaching. I'd look at this first.
 

Cheesebeef

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So true! Tweaking the Suns roster isn't going to change the position they are putting themselves in. Their fifteen minutes of fame is beginning to catch up with them. It will be revealed more and more during crunch time.

Three lead/scoring Guards with no one truly running the team offense. Twins thinking they have double-the-power and can get away with anything.

Too many players apparently not taking the Coach seriously, while he pontificates to the Press about how things should be.

Sadly, this 3-ring circus which is becoming a laughingstock to the NBA isn't building for the future.

become a laughingstock of the NBA... jesus.
 

BC867

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become a laughingstock of the NBA... jesus.
OK, some ASFN posters. Jesus, I don't know about. :)

Seriously, do you believe that the top third of NBA teams Front Offices take the Suns roster seriously?

We'll see if any of them, or beyond, deal with the Suns as strong trade partners.
 

AzStevenCal

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OK, some ASFN posters. Jesus, I don't know about. :)

Seriously, do you believe that the top third of NBA teams Front Offices take the Suns roster seriously?

We'll see if any of them, or beyond, deal with the Suns as strong trade partners.

Are you kidding? Absofreakinglutely. The only place they are routinely dismissed or ridiculed is in places like this one. You should read the glowing articles about this team on Grantland and elsewhere. For some reason, you and many others on this board seem to have lost perspective. This team isn't capable of winning it all right now therefore they are a joke? Wow. Look at how many years these other rosters have had to grow together and then compare them to where we are right now.

You want us to play and win like last year's Spurs team or this year's Memphis team? Maintain some continuity and develop from within while adding a piece or two and it will likely happen. The only thing that will derail us now (from a quest to become a contender) is key injuries or sweeping changes for the sake of changes. It would have been great if we could have built a contending team overnight but seriously, how often does that happen?

Keep this roster together and let Len take the next step or two in his development and that alone will make us a contender IMO. Right now he can't stay on the court because of health related concerns and foul problems but he's slowly building up his minutes. Next year hopefully he'll be able to give us 30 minutes a night and perhaps by then he'll have learned a few back to the basket moves. When just that happens we'll be a far different team than we are right now. Not that I think we'll keep this roster together but the point is we have building blocks.

I keep hearing how so many of you can't stand to watch this team play. Several of you have admitted you dislike them so much that you rarely actually do watch them. But repeatedly, this team is talked about as one of the most popular watches on League Pass.

Fans around the nation love watching them play and I love watching them play despite the frustrations that often come from a young team. Some of the people that can't stand to watch them play, promise to only watch them if they started playing even younger guys. That makes little sense to me. I think many of you are watching a few minutes here and there (usually against the best teams) and then make sweeping generalizations about this team based on them at their worst.

Steve
 

Cheesebeef

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OK, some ASFN posters. Jesus, I don't know about. :)

Seriously, do you believe that the top third of NBA teams Front Offices take the Suns roster seriously?

We'll see if any of them, or beyond, deal with the Suns as strong trade partners.

there's a GULF of difference between what the top third of NBA teams think and that we are THE LAUGHINGSTOCK OF THE LEAGUE.

Do I think we're perfectly constructed? Hell no. Far from it, but for you to be going straight apocolapyse in every single post is beyond annoying.
 
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Earlier this week, Grant Lowe had this to say about Markieff "Morris is developing into one of the finest all-around young big men in the game, and he has broken out already as the Suns’ best crunch-time option". And here's what Bill Simmons said just a week earlier "Now here’s a legitimately underrated basketball player! Love his toughness, love his crunch-time chops". It's hard to reconcile these kind of comments with "backup" and "soft". The guy loves contact and backs down from no one.

What shows up in MkMorris's highlight reels? His technicals and his hotheadedness. That's not playing strong. Playing strong means banging in the paint and using your physique to a basketball advantage, not a macho junk-waving contest.

Do you see Morris outworking Jefferson? Boxing out Randolph? Punishing Aldridge on the block? Attacking the rim like Griffin? Rallying his teammates like Duncan? No. Instead he shoots fadeaways, spends less time in the trenches on either end than practically any big in the league (floating just inside the free-throw line doesn't count), and intimidates no one. Sure, a 6' 10" guy losing his temper and threatening to go postal over not getting a foul call might be a scary sight to the likes of Bill Simmons, but do you think opposing NBA power forwards take that nonsense seriously? My guess is that not only are they laughing at him, they have no qualms about doing it to his face.

elindholm's response to yours, Steve, addresses most of the problems I have with Markieff. Just because he has an "attitude" doesn't mean he's a "tough" player. He's not a banger, he's not the type of player who battles for key rebounds or even boxes out well, he isn't someone that can affect the way our opponents bigs play offensively and isn't a priority for their defense either since he's not the type of player who can carry a team offensively to wins. Compare his game to other starting 4's in the league like Aldridge, Duncan, The Brow, Griffin, Gasol, Ibaka, Favors, Monroe, Randolph, Nowitzki, Millsap, Love, etc and tell me which matchup favors Kieff? Is he capable of keeping them from getting their playing their best? Will he outplay any of them in terms of what he puts up offensively compared to them? If you want to use stats he's ranked 21st out of PF's in the league in PER at 16.63 and 14th in the West. Look at all the playoff contenders in the West and tell me which one starts a PF who Kieff is surely better than.

You claim he's our most clutch player based on scoring percentage in the final 3 minutes? Does that stat take the score into consideration at all? The Suns are 2-8 in games decided by 3 points or less, that's in large part because we don't have a closer. He may have a good scoring percentage in the final 3 minutes but that isn't helping the team win close games. He's not a go-to scorer and it's doubtful he will ever be one on a playoff team. If he could score at will like you claim, or "get his shot off", then he'd be putting up more than 14-15 ppg and would also be the guy we wanted to have the ball in his hands at the end of games, but he's not. How many games has his scoring carried the Suns to wins? I'd be willing to bet Green's scoring has led to more wins this year than Markieff. How many games has Kieff been the key player in leading the Suns to a win, not just from a scoring standpoint?

He's the only PF on the roster which basically made him the starter by default, similar to Plumlee as the starting C last season. I'd expect any starter who gets 30+ mpg, who isn't a defensive specialist like Tucker, to be able to get around 15 ppg. He's no more than an average offensive player, he'd be better suited playing against second teams coming off of the bench. I doubt any team with a legit PF or C game plans for Markieff on either end of the floor, unless it's to attack him with their own bigs. They figure he'll get his 14-15 points and their plan is to stop penetration from our guards, which is easier with a guy like Kieff playing 10-15 feet from the basket along side a C like Len. He isn't someone they need to worry about stepping out on the perimeter, grabbing offensive boards, or kicking out to another open player. Just like his brother he's another "ISO-Ball" player who doesn't often pass up the chance to get his even if one of our guards is open outside or Tucker in a corner. He's also one of the few constants as far as being on the court at the end of games so I'd expect him to be able to put up around 15 points when our SF is a 3 & D guy and our Center isn't used much at all offensively.

He's really the closest and only thing to a PF the team has. The team needs more bigs. Without getting a replacement for Frye, whether a stretch 4 or a legit PF/C, in the offseason it made Markieff the starter and only PF. He didn't have to earn the starting spot, it was given to him by default. I think part of the problem with both of the twins attitude this year is because they had no competition for their spots and minutes. Their attitudes needed to be reigned in and Jeff attempted that with the "If you get a technical then you're benched for the rest of the game" tactic but I'm sure that had a negative effect on the teams chemistry. That made it so players like Dragic picked up a T he had to sit for the remainder of the game even though he averages like 3 or 4 a year. I know that it's more than the Morrii who had dumb technicals this year but they've been at the forefront of it and are the most likely causes for that sort of rule to be adopted by Hornacek.

Of course trading him would require getting a PF of sorts in return but I'd rather move him for a player who doesn't have his attitude and plays like a true PF and has room to grow than hold onto Morris, either one or both. I'd be happy if the team moved both the Morrii for Monroe or someone who would only be a rental for the rest of this season just to get them off of the books and open up space for the team to upgrade the PF spot in the draft and/or FA. The Morrii are not the answer in the front court, even if Len develops into an All Star caliber player. I don't see either one of them getting better and trading one alone would most likely lead to more attitude issues.
 

slinslin

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Yes clutch stats take the score into account as well.

And you are just plain wrong about Markieff, you couldn't back up your argument with numbers.

Also the Suns are 2-8 in games decided by 3 or less? Great that is just an arbitrary random number, the Suns are also 15-15 decided by 5 or less.
 
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Hoop Head

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Yes clutch stats take the score into account as well.

And you are just plain wrong about Markieff, you couldn't back up your argument with numbers.

Also the Suns are 2-8 in games decided by 3 or less? Great that is just an arbitrary random number, the Suns are also 15-15 decided by 5 or less.

So his PER being 21st among qualifying PF's and 14th among just Western conference PF's isn't backing it up with numbers? I know you like to use PER whenever it supports your argument but since it doesn't here you ignore it. Let's add some more then...

How about him leading the league in technicals with 11 just barely past the halfway mark in the season when he hits 15 he'll be getting suspensions, do you think he can make it 32 more games without 4 more? How about his assist to turnover ratio being 1.07, which shows he's not good at finding other teammates if he's fed the ball in the post? He does average 2 apg which means he also averages 2 turnovers. He only averages 5.9 rpg as a starting PF and closing C, which is terrible. That's .8 more than Frye had last year who everyone calls soft. Frye also benefited from Plumlee being around and being a solid rebounder last year, Kieff doesn't have the same luxury. Per 36 mpg he only averages 7.0 rpg, which again is bad for a starting frontcourt player, especially when we don't have a great rebounding C. How about per 100 possessions he averages an offensive rating of 105 and defensive of 106, so he's giving up a point while he's on the court. He ranks below his brother in win shares @ 1.6 which is 5th on the team and half of our 3 PG's win shares.


Why is it always "numbers" with you? Do you not watch the games and rely on stats to make your judgements? Watching him play you can see he's at best an average PF, I gave you some numbers to prove he's an average at best PF and would be best suited coming off of the bench, if even kept on the team. Almost every one here talks about how the Suns need a true big or an inside presence, most feel that Len's developing nicely into a solid starting Center and aren't calling for his role to reduced. 9 times out of 10 people here call for Len to be inserted back into the game in the 4th quarter, they may not single out Markieff but he's the one who is supposed to be providing an inside presence at those times. Even if Len develops into a great inside presence and can play more minutes that doesn't excuse Kieff's lack of rebounding or interior defense. There are a number of teams with power players at both the PF & C like Memphis, Detroit, New Orleans, Atlanta, Washington, Chicago, Clippers, etc... All of those teams are either playoff teams or in the hunt. In the postseason when play is more physical those are also the teams that will have success. Just because you have a strong Center (which Len isn't yet) doesn't mean the PF is excused from crashing boards or banging inside, which Kieff does not do.


Here's some links of where I got my stats so you don't try to question their authenticity.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/m/morrima02.html

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics/_/position/pf
 

slinslin

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PER is not everything. PER does not measure defense for instance.

Markieff is #14 among ALL NBA players in RPM and #10 in WAR among all NBA players.

You are just a hater.
http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm

And yeah watching the suns play it is also plain obvious that Bledsoe and Markieff have clearly been their best players this season by a big margin.
 
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sunsfan88

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elindholm's response to yours, Steve, addresses most of the problems I have with Markieff. Just because he has an "attitude" doesn't mean he's a "tough" player. He's not a banger, he's not the type of player who battles for key rebounds or even boxes out well, he isn't someone that can affect the way our opponents bigs play offensively and isn't a priority for their defense either since he's not the type of player who can carry a team offensively to wins. Compare his game to other starting 4's in the league like Aldridge, Duncan, The Brow, Griffin, Gasol, Ibaka, Favors, Monroe, Randolph, Nowitzki, Millsap, Love, etc and tell me which matchup favors Kieff? Is he capable of keeping them from getting their playing their best? Will he outplay any of them in terms of what he puts up offensively compared to them? If you want to use stats he's ranked 21st out of PF's in the league in PER at 16.63 and 14th in the West. Look at all the playoff contenders in the West and tell me which one starts a PF who Kieff is surely better than.

You claim he's our most clutch player based on scoring percentage in the final 3 minutes? Does that stat take the score into consideration at all? The Suns are 2-8 in games decided by 3 points or less, that's in large part because we don't have a closer. He may have a good scoring percentage in the final 3 minutes but that isn't helping the team win close games. He's not a go-to scorer and it's doubtful he will ever be one on a playoff team. If he could score at will like you claim, or "get his shot off", then he'd be putting up more than 14-15 ppg and would also be the guy we wanted to have the ball in his hands at the end of games, but he's not. How many games has his scoring carried the Suns to wins? I'd be willing to bet Green's scoring has led to more wins this year than Markieff. How many games has Kieff been the key player in leading the Suns to a win, not just from a scoring standpoint?

He's the only PF on the roster which basically made him the starter by default, similar to Plumlee as the starting C last season. I'd expect any starter who gets 30+ mpg, who isn't a defensive specialist like Tucker, to be able to get around 15 ppg. He's no more than an average offensive player, he'd be better suited playing against second teams coming off of the bench. I doubt any team with a legit PF or C game plans for Markieff on either end of the floor, unless it's to attack him with their own bigs. They figure he'll get his 14-15 points and their plan is to stop penetration from our guards, which is easier with a guy like Kieff playing 10-15 feet from the basket along side a C like Len. He isn't someone they need to worry about stepping out on the perimeter, grabbing offensive boards, or kicking out to another open player. Just like his brother he's another "ISO-Ball" player who doesn't often pass up the chance to get his even if one of our guards is open outside or Tucker in a corner. He's also one of the few constants as far as being on the court at the end of games so I'd expect him to be able to put up around 15 points when our SF is a 3 & D guy and our Center isn't used much at all offensively.

He's really the closest and only thing to a PF the team has. The team needs more bigs. Without getting a replacement for Frye, whether a stretch 4 or a legit PF/C, in the offseason it made Markieff the starter and only PF. He didn't have to earn the starting spot, it was given to him by default. I think part of the problem with both of the twins attitude this year is because they had no competition for their spots and minutes. Their attitudes needed to be reigned in and Jeff attempted that with the "If you get a technical then you're benched for the rest of the game" tactic but I'm sure that had a negative effect on the teams chemistry. That made it so players like Dragic picked up a T he had to sit for the remainder of the game even though he averages like 3 or 4 a year. I know that it's more than the Morrii who had dumb technicals this year but they've been at the forefront of it and are the most likely causes for that sort of rule to be adopted by Hornacek.

Of course trading him would require getting a PF of sorts in return but I'd rather move him for a player who doesn't have his attitude and plays like a true PF and has room to grow than hold onto Morris, either one or both. I'd be happy if the team moved both the Morrii for Monroe or someone who would only be a rental for the rest of this season just to get them off of the books and open up space for the team to upgrade the PF spot in the draft and/or FA. The Morrii are not the answer in the front court, even if Len develops into an All Star caliber player. I don't see either one of them getting better and trading one alone would most likely lead to more attitude issues.
Good post. And this is why I've always liked Kieff in a 6th man, Lamar Odom type role. Odom was versatile enough to play SF & PF while Kieff is versatile enough to play PF & C (against bench units).

I loved Kieff off the bench last year, it covers up his weaknesses and gives us a boost offensively as well when the staters come out. Hopefully we can find a starting caliber PF so that we can move Kieff to 6th man role.
 

elindholm

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PER is not everything. PER does not measure defense for instance.

Markieff is #14 among ALL NBA players in RPM and #10 in WAR among all NBA players.

You have access to a hundred advanced stats and cherry-pick the ones that help your argument. There have been cases before where it's been all about PER with you. The fact that these fancy stats correlate so poorly with one another should give you a big hint about how meaningful they are.
 

sunsfan88

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You have access to a hundred advanced stats and cherry-pick the ones that help your argument. There have been cases before where it's been all about PER with you. The fact that these fancy stats correlate so poorly with one another should give you a big hint about how meaningful they are.

All and every single stat can be manipulated to support whatever your argument is.

Ask Magic fans who hate Frye how much they care about his amazing +/- numbers from last season. Hint: They don't
 

AzStevenCal

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So his PER being 21st among qualifying PF's

Yes, that is a concern. His PER at Basketball Reference has dropped about a point and a half since they started making an issue about his T's. IIRC, Hollinger had him at 12th among all power forwards not much more than a month ago and now he's dropped to 21st. I'm a little concerned but I'm pretty sure the Suns brain trust will think this through and stop trying to corral him. I don't see him as a loose cannon out there despite the technicals. We need to start hammering the league for the way they call the twins game. I swear they each pick up T's that no one else in the league would get.

I think the refs tend to let most players do a little complaining and after they've heard enough, they'll T them up for a fairly minor comment. It seems to me that they reach that line with the twins far earlier than they do with other players and I believe it's because they don't always distinguish which Morris is talking. They just add it up and when they've had enough they lower the boom and it falls on whichever twin is currently talking.

I remember Amare getting a lot of T's and his transgression was immediately apparent almost every time that he got called. With the twins it's only been obvious maybe half the time and probably even less than that. Anyway, the coaches need to turn Markieff loose again (except tell him to shut up with the "and one" yell) and address this problem through the league office instead of tamping down Markieff's aggression.

The other thing that needs to be considered when talking about Keef's PER is that he's either forced to play out of the traditional power forward spot (where rebounds flourish) or he's forced to play without another big man on the court. That has always hurt our big guys and while it's easy to just blame him it's a fairly safe bet that whoever we traded him for would find himself in the same position.

Steve
 
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elindholm

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The other thing that needs to be considered when talking about Keef's PER is that he's either forced to play out of the traditional power forward spot (where rebounds flourish) or he's forced to play without another big man on the court. That has always hurt our big guys and while it's easy to just blame him it's a fairly safe bet that whoever we traded him for would find himself in the same position.

I can't agree with that at all. The Suns are a poor rebounding team. It's not that Morris's teammates are beating him for rebounds -- his opponents are.

Put a real rebounder in the lineup and you'd see a big improvement.
 

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I can't agree with that at all. The Suns are a poor rebounding team. It's not that Morris's teammates are beating him for rebounds -- his opponents are.

Put a real rebounder in the lineup and you'd see a big improvement.

There's nobody to put a body on the other big guy though. Keef is not a great rebounder but last season he was noticeably better. Why? IMO it was the presence of Frye who was a poor rebounder but he at least put a body on his man. He couldn't always hold his position but I think we all know that neither of those guys are going to take a lot of rebounds away from the Drummonds, Cousins and Randolphs of the league.

I'd like to see Keef get the same chance most power forwards get before dumping him for the next disappointing power forward. This team rebounds and plays quite well when Keef and Len are both on the court. As has been mentioned before, regardless of who else is out there with him, we are 16 points better per 100 possessions when Markieff is on the floor. And hopefully by next year we'll see our best combo of Len and Markieff 30 minutes a game instead of the 15 to 20 we're getting this season.

Steve
 

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All and every single stat can be manipulated to support whatever your argument is.

Ask Magic fans who hate Frye how much they care about his amazing +/- numbers from last season. Hint: They don't

I'm not missing Channing Frye nor enjoying stat wars.
 

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I'm not missing Channing Frye nor enjoying stat wars.

Yeah well I'm not enjoying the constant belittling of our head coach and the over-the-top criticism of the players on this team. I guess that's life, different opinions bring out things like "stat wars". And unlike you and apparently most of the posters here, I do miss Channing Frye. I miss the space he used to provide for Goran and I miss the two man game he and Dragic ran to perfection. I also miss the fact that he communicated and helped direct our defensive effort. He worked his butt off and he was a positive presence in the locker room and on the court. Granted, he really let us down the final month of last season when his shot disappeared. If that was a picture of the Frye of the future, we're better off without him, But I still miss the Frye that did so much for this team.

Like Markieff (and Amare), Frye didn't rebound well but someone wake me when they start handing out wins based on number of rebounds. Sacramento, Denver, Charlotte, Detroit and Indiana are all in the top 7 for total rebounds. And if you believe that total rebounds are unimportant and that rebounding differential is the only board stat that matters, well, Sacramento, Utah, New Orleans and Indiana are all in the top 6. It's perhaps the most overrated stat in the NBA and yet it seems to be the number one focus on this board.

Steve
 

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Like Markieff (and Amare), Frye didn't rebound well but someone wake me when they start handing out wins based on number of rebounds.

So you're allowed to invoke the eye test for what matters and what doesn't, but we aren't? How do we mediate the question of whether rebounding or floor spacing matters more? Or is it just up to you to decide?

The Suns are 25th in the league in defensive rebounding percentage. http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/team/_/stat/rebounds-per-game Their record in close games is either (a) terrible or (b) merely bad, depending on which stat you want to look at. Even those of us who haven't watched much have been frustrated by seeing the Suns lose in crunch time through giving up second and third chances to the opposition over and over. I don't know how to find the numbers, but I'd bet anything that their defensive rebounding rate gets even worse when they go to the 3-PG lineup, which Hornacek seems committed to closing with. So the other team pretty much gets to keep shooting until they score, and then it's up to the Suns to try to answer with a contested three or an out-of-control drive.
 

Mainstreet

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Yeah well I'm not enjoying the constant belittling of our head coach and the over-the-top criticism of the players on this team. I guess that's life, different opinions bring out things like "stat wars". And unlike you and apparently most of the posters here, I do miss Channing Frye. I miss the space he used to provide for Goran and I miss the two man game he and Dragic ran to perfection. I also miss the fact that he communicated and helped direct our defensive effort. He worked his butt off and he was a positive presence in the locker room and on the court. Granted, he really let us down the final month of last season when his shot disappeared. If that was a picture of the Frye of the future, we're better off without him, But I still miss the Frye that did so much for this team.

Like Markieff (and Amare), Frye didn't rebound well but someone wake me when they start handing out wins based on number of rebounds. Sacramento, Denver, Charlotte, Detroit and Indiana are all in the top 7 for total rebounds. And if you believe that total rebounds are unimportant and that rebounding differential is the only board stat that matters, well, Sacramento, Utah, New Orleans and Indiana are all in the top 6. It's perhaps the most overrated stat in the NBA and yet it seems to be the number one focus on this board.

Steve

It appears I touched a nerve. I apologize. I liked Channing Frye but not for the amount of money he is being paid. However, he definitely would help the stability of the current Suns. I do have some issues with how the Suns run their offense and their defensive strategy. It is only my opinion, nothing more. If you want to discuss a particular remark that you find offensive, I will try to explain.
 

AzStevenCal

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So you're allowed to invoke the eye test for what matters and what doesn't, but we aren't? How do we mediate the question of whether rebounding or floor spacing matters more? Or is it just up to you to decide?

The Suns are 25th in the league in defensive rebounding percentage. http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/team/_/stat/rebounds-per-game Their record in close games is either (a) terrible or (b) merely bad, depending on which stat you want to look at. Even those of us who haven't watched much have been frustrated by seeing the Suns lose in crunch time through giving up second and third chances to the opposition over and over. I don't know how to find the numbers, but I'd bet anything that their defensive rebounding rate gets even worse when they go to the 3-PG lineup, which Hornacek seems committed to closing with. So the other team pretty much gets to keep shooting until they score, and then it's up to the Suns to try to answer with a contested three or an out-of-control drive.

Invoke it all you want. I think telling us in one paragraph that you hate the team so much that you almost never watch them and then claiming authority with the "eye test" is a bit much but whatever works for you. We were a bad rebounding team last season too but we were a much better team when Frye was on the court. You can offer up a thousand reasons why this might have occurred but it's undeniable, it did occur. Given that the most important stat of all is to outscore your opponent, I think that stat beats all the other stats AND the eye test.

As for the rebounding rate, I don't know if it gets worse but I do remember seeing stats about 10 days ago that showed we were I think 5th in rebounding differential since we started using the three to close out games. I'll try to see if I can find it but whatever it was it was a significant improvement over what it had been.

We have been horrible in close games. Some of it is just plain dumb luck though. I mean, last second bank shot threes? It hasn't all been just bad luck though. We don't have a strong closer. Markieff isn't bad but he's by far the best we have. Bledsoe is probably second best but that's solely by virtue of how bad every one else is. Bledsoe improves as a shooter and scorer in clutch situations but his judgement and ball handling make him a real risk. Thomas has similar problems. Goran Dragic historically is one of the worst clutch free throw shooters in this league and he short arms his mid-range shot far too frequently when the game is in the balance. But we're the 4th youngest team in the NBA and most of the teams that are doing this better than us have been together for quite a bit longer.

Every stat I see related to our 3 point guard lineup has been not just positive but hugely positive. The only time I think it was directly involved in causing a loss was in our last game where we put them alongside the twins. Marcus had no business being on the court then, he's a liability on both sides of the ball. But Len is worn down and has clearly hit that rookie wall and Wright is still learning our system. Jeff is trying to find other combos capable of taking some of Len's workload for awhile, hopefully he'll settle on one that doesn't involve one of the worst defenders in the league.

Steve
 

AzStevenCal

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It appears I touched a nerve. I apologize. I liked Channing Frye but not for the amount of money he is being paid. However, he definitely would help the stability of the current Suns. I do have some issues with how the Suns run their offense and their defensive strategy. It is only my opinion, nothing more. If you want to discuss a particular remark that you find offensive, I will try to explain.

It wasn't the Frye reference, it was actually the anti-"stat wars" comment. Maybe I read you wrong but it seemed to me like you were lobbying against the idea of us trying to support Markieff with stats. This board has been overwhelmingly negative recently and I find it almost suffocating at times to just read a thread. It shouldn't be that way. We just aren't that bad but you'd never know it by the tone of the posts here. Even with our 3 game losing streak we've played pretty well since getting our guards healthy and going to our current lineup where we start with Len and run the 3 point guards together during crunch time.

I understand that people have a right to feel how they choose about this team. But negativity breeds negativity and it has been hard at work on this board. Never in my life did I expect to find more positivity on RealGM than here but that's the case. I'm trying to counter just a small fraction of that negativity. I'm failing but I'm trying. Sure, it doesn't help that the team isn't as good as we'd like but it is nowhere near as bad as it's being made out to be. We have the 13th best record, not the 29th.

Steve
 

Chaplin

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It wasn't the Frye reference, it was actually the anti-"stat wars" comment. Maybe I read you wrong but it seemed to me like you were lobbying against the idea of us trying to support Markieff with stats. This board has been overwhelmingly negative recently and I find it almost suffocating at times to just read a thread. It shouldn't be that way. We just aren't that bad but you'd never know it by the tone of the posts here. Even with our 3 game losing streak we've played pretty well since getting our guards healthy and going to our current lineup where we start with Len and run the 3 point guards together during crunch time.

I understand that people have a right to feel how they choose about this team. But negativity breeds negativity and it has been hard at work on this board. Never in my life did I expect to find more positivity on RealGM than here but that's the case. I'm trying to counter just a small fraction of that negativity. I'm failing but I'm trying. Sure, it doesn't help that the team isn't as good as we'd like but it is nowhere near as bad as it's being made out to be. We have the 13th best record, not the 29th.

Steve

Stay away from the new "perspective" thread. I don't think perspective is something people want right now.
 

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