With the second pick in the 2007 nfl draft....

[football karma]

I absolutely agree that the line must be upgraded --

I just dont see how not using the #2 pick on an offensive lineman automatically means the line doesnt get upgraded

 

[Russ Smith]

And I think that he was undrafted.

yep, all you gotta do is look at Atlanta or Denver etc and you can see there are a lot of guys not drafted very high who become good OL's.

My main point with Grutt is how important it is to have a good C. That's why I keep bringing up Baas from SF, Michigan OL's are always good, he's a very talented kid who's stuck behind some other guys, I would love to work out a trade for him. He's not going to be the best C in the NFL of course, if he was he would beat out Heitmann in SF, but IMHO he's light years ahead of Lackey and Stepped on.

 

[GreenCard]

Not that it makes a difference but I think the Rams gave a 2 and a 5 for Faulk.

 

[Assface]

yep, all you gotta do is look at Atlanta or Denver etc and you can see there are a lot of guys not drafted very high who become good OL's.

The thing about using those lines is that they get by on cut blocking. People point to them as examples of teams using line consisting of smaller linemen and low to undrafted linemen. Denver has been cranking out 1000 yard rushers every year and Atlanta has had the #1 rushing attack this season but neither team pass blocks well. The smaller OL get pushed back easily which is why both offenses rely on rollouts and mobile QBs.

Quality OL can be found in every round but I think those 2 teams are a bad example. IMO the success of those two offensive lines is smoke and mirrors. Let's look at the Eagles since they have the #1 ranked offense this year.

LT Jon Runyan 4th round pick
LG Shawn Andrews 1st round pick
C Jamaal Jackson UDFA (from Delaware State)
RG 4th round pick
RT 1st round (11th overall)

They also have early 2nd round rookie Winston Justice waiting in the wings.

 

[Duckjake]

The thing about using those lines is that they get by on cut blocking. People point to them as examples of teams using line consisting of smaller linemen and low to undrafted linemen. Denver has been cranking out 1000 yard rushers every year and Atlanta has had the #1 rushing attack this season but neither team pass blocks well. The smaller OL get pushed back easily which is why both offenses rely on rollouts and mobile QBs.

Quality OL can be found in every round but I think those 2 teams are a bad example. IMO the success of those two offensive lines is smoke and mirrors. Let's look at the Eagles since they have the #1 ranked offense this year.

LT Jon Runyan 4th round pick
LG Shawn Andrews 1st round pick
C Jamaal Jackson UDFA (from Delaware State)
RG 4th round pick
RT 1st round (11th overall)

They also have early 2nd round rookie Winston Justice waiting in the wings.

I just have a hard time getting into the Oline being about who rather than how.

Like the Eagles the Colts have a top rated offense and a tremendous offensive line yet they have not used a first or 2nd round pick on a lineman since 1997 and the last 3rd was in 1999. In addition Jeff Saturday was an UDFA.

Too many guys have come to Arizona after being decent players elsewhere and stinking it up once they arrive for me to believe spending a bunch of draft picks, high or otherwise, or money on free agents is going to fix the mess Green made.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

I guess it just come down to, is Joe Thomas worthy of a top 3 pick? The scouts all rave about him but i see him more in the 6-10 range.Which is still very good but do you pass on potential superstars like Johnson, Peterson, Quinn to fill a need. The two guys Thomas reminds me of are Jon Tait and Jordan Gross. Both are solid starters but, by no means, superstars.

 

[az jam]

I guess it just come down to, is Joe Thomas worthy of a top 3 pick? The scouts all rave about him but i see him more in the 6-10 range.Which is still very good but do you pass on potential superstars like Johnson, Peterson, Quinn to fill a need. The two guys Thomas reminds me of are Jon Tait and Jordan Gross. Both are solid starters but, by no means, superstars.

I would be happy with a solid starter OL with our pick.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

I would be happy with a solid starter OL with our pick.

Me too, but you can get solid starters in the later rounds but it's less likely to get a guy that turns out to be a superstar later in the draft. It happens. Guys like Boldin come to mind but they are the exceptions.

 

[football karma]

I guess it just come down to, is Joe Thomas worthy of a top 3 pick? The scouts all rave about him but i see him more in the 6-10 range.Which is still very good but do you pass on potential superstars like Johnson, Peterson, Quinn to fill a need. The two guys Thomas reminds me of are Jon Tait and Jordan Gross. Both are solid starters but, by no means, superstars.

This is partly why I started this thread --

in my admittedly amatuer draft analysis -- it seems that there is a top three -- Quinn, Johnson and Peterson -- and then the talent drops down a tier, and you get Joe Thomas, Gaines Adams (Clemson D end) and some others

So while it may not seem a reach to take at #2 the highest rated o-lineman who is ranked at (lets say) #5 or #6 -- talent wise, there is a big gap between the #3 and the #4 ranked players

There is lots of ground to cover prior to the draft, so who knows how these rankings will shake out ---- but sitting at 2-9, the draft and the offseason is all I have to keep me hopeful

 

[earthsci]

IF we could trade down I would actually favor Jake Long.

 

[Divide Et Impera]

IF we could trade down I would actually favor Jake Long.

Yeah, I hear he's a real monster!

You must be registered for see images

 

[Skkorpion]

The oline improvement in the last 3 weeks has been impressive. Yes, we need depth, competition at C and LT but the right side, made up of Lutui and Wells, has been very good. I want no changes on the right side.

 

[WildBB]

The oline improvement in the last 3 weeks has been impressive. Yes, we need depth, competition at C and LT but the right side, made up of Lutui and Wells, has been very good. I want no changes on the right side.

Davis and Brown have started all of two weeks together - lets see what they do the rest of the yr. too.

 

[WildBB]

This is partly why I started this thread --

in my admittedly amatuer draft analysis -- it seems that there is a top three -- Quinn, Johnson and Peterson -- and then the talent drops down a tier, and you get Joe Thomas, Gaines Adams (Clemson D end) and some others

So while it may not seem a reach to take at #2 the highest rated o-lineman who is ranked at (lets say) #5 or #6 -- talent wise, there is a big gap between the #3 and the #4 ranked players

There is lots of ground to cover prior to the draft, so who knows how these rankings will shake out ---- but sitting at 2-9, the draft and the offseason is all I have to keep me hopeful

Bingarooni -

 

[WildBB]

I absolutely agree that the line must be upgraded --

I just dont see how not using the #2 pick on an offensive lineman automatically means the line doesnt get upgraded

 

[gusmahler]

Wasn't Bush graded higher than Peterson by just about everyone?

Doesn't Bush have a Yards per carry that is so low that even Edge laughs at it?

 

[kerouac9]

Quality OL can be found in every round but I think those 2 teams are a bad example. IMO the success of those two offensive lines is smoke and mirrors. Let's look at the Eagles since they have the #1 ranked offense this year.

LT Jon Runyan 4th round pick
LG Shawn Andrews 1st round pick
C Jamaal Jackson UDFA (from Delaware State)
RG 4th round pick
RT 1st round (11th overall)

They also have early 2nd round rookie Winston Justice waiting in the wings.

Yeah, but they can't run the ball, either. They pass on something like 70% of their offensive downs. That's a truly bad example to use. Look at the San Diego Chargers' offensive line:

LT - Marcus McNeill, rookie 2nd round pick
LG - Kris Dielman, UDFA
C - Nick Hardwick, 3rd round pick
RG - Mike Goff, Free-agent signee, 3rd round pick
RT - Shane Olivea, 3rd round pick

This isn't breaking the bank on guys; it's building a group and letting them play together. You won't find a better, hungrier bunch of players in the NFL.

And what about the New Orleans Saints? A team that can run the ball and pass the ball with great efficiency? How's their offensive line made up?

LT - Jamaal Brown, former 1st round pick
LG - Jamar Nesbitt, free agent signee, 11 year veteran, former UDFA
C - Jeff Faine, free agent signee, former 1st round pick (21st overall)
RG - Jahari Evans, rookie 4th round pick, former offensive tackle
RT - Jonathan Stintchcomb, former 2nd round pick

Faine wasn't a marquee signing, but the team knew what they were looking for and got themselves a player. I bet that these guys aren't in the Top 10 in spending along the offensive line, either. I don't think Brown was even a Top 15 selection.

Heck, look at the Bengals, another team with a complete offensive attack:

LT - Levi Jones, former 1st round pick
LG - Erick Steinbach, former 2nd round pick
C - Rich Braham, 12 year NFL veteran, former UDFA
RG - Bobbie Williams, free agent signee, former 2nd round pick
RT - Willie Anderson, 11 year NFL veteran, fomer top 10 pick

It's not just about loading up on high picks. It's about knowing what you want to do with the players that you have, and finding guys that are going to fit your system.

 

[NEZCardsfan]

IF we could trade down I would actually favor Jake Long.

And that is IF he comes out. I love this kid. But right now, the rumor on Wolverine MBs is no. I think he should come out.......Blaylock just got hurt and could drop his draft status. Everyone will watch Long run block January 1st. Fans on here will fall in love and forget about Thomas.

 

[joeshmo]

Wasn't Bush graded higher than Peterson by just about everyone?

As a multi use threat yes, but not as a RB. Even then I am not sure if teams wouldnt grade PEterson higher then bush.

If Bush and Peterson were in the same draft it would really matter what a team was looking for. A pure RB, or a 3rd down back/receiver/return man.

 

[Mitch]

Yeah, but they can't run the ball, either. They pass on something like 70% of their offensive downs. That's a truly bad example to use. Look at the San Diego Chargers' offensive line:

LT - Marcus McNeill, rookie 2nd round pick
LG - Kris Dielman, UDFA
C - Nick Hardwick, 3rd round pick
RG - Mike Goff, Free-agent signee, 3rd round pick
RT - Shane Olivea, 3rd round pick

This isn't breaking the bank on guys; it's building a group and letting them play together. You won't find a better, hungrier bunch of players in the NFL.

And what about the New Orleans Saints? A team that can run the ball and pass the ball with great efficiency? How's their offensive line made up?

LT - Jamaal Brown, former 1st round pick
LG - Jamar Nesbitt, free agent signee, 11 year veteran, former UDFA
C - Jeff Faine, free agent signee, former 1st round pick (21st overall)
RG - Jahari Evans, rookie 4th round pick, former offensive tackle
RT - Jonathan Stintchcomb, former 2nd round pick

Faine wasn't a marquee signing, but the team knew what they were looking for and got themselves a player. I bet that these guys aren't in the Top 10 in spending along the offensive line, either. I don't think Brown was even a Top 15 selection.

Heck, look at the Bengals, another team with a complete offensive attack:

LT - Levi Jones, former 1st round pick
LG - Erick Steinbach, former 2nd round pick
C - Rich Braham, 12 year NFL veteran, former UDFA
RG - Bobbie Williams, free agent signee, former 2nd round pick
RT - Willie Anderson, 11 year NFL veteran, fomer top 10 pick

It's not just about loading up on high picks. It's about knowing what you want to do with the players that you have, and finding guys that are going to fit your system.

Great post...one correction...C Rich Braham was not a UDFA...he was a 3rd round pick of the Cardinals in 1994...a player who Buddy Ryan sent packing during his rookie year. Like Jeff Christy, another Cardinal 3rd round pick who was cut early, Braham has had a long, productive career...although Christy was a Pro Bowl C in his prime.

 

[lobo]

It's not just about loading up on high picks. It's about knowing what you want to do with the players that you have, and finding guys that are going to fit your system.[/quote]

this is an excellent post....no nastiness...all well documented....and hard to debate....thanks.

 

[lobo]

Great post...one correction...C Rich Braham was not a UDFA...he was a 3rd round pick of the Cardinals in 1994...a player who Buddy Ryan sent packing during his rookie year. Like Jeff Christy, another Cardinal 3rd round pick who was cut early, Braham has had a long, productive career...although Christy was a Pro Bowl C in his prime.

i drink to forget these two points...i think bugel actually "really liked" christy and the cards were really panned for taking him by the talking heads..."we" have a way of loosing real good centers.

 

[Duckjake]

It's not just about loading up on high picks. It's about knowing what you want to do with the players that you have, and finding guys that are going to fit your system.
__________________

Exactly. When your team finishes 24th or worse in rushing every year but one for 13 years its not about who is playing but who is running the team they are playing for.

 

[BACH]

Yeah, but they can't run the ball, either. They pass on something like 70% of their offensive downs. That's a truly bad example to use. Look at the San Diego Chargers' offensive line:

LT - Marcus McNeill, rookie 2nd round pick
LG - Kris Dielman, UDFA
C - Nick Hardwick, 3rd round pick
RG - Mike Goff, Free-agent signee, 3rd round pick
RT - Shane Olivea, 3rd round pick

This isn't breaking the bank on guys; it's building a group and letting them play together. You won't find a better, hungrier bunch of players in the NFL.

And what about the New Orleans Saints? A team that can run the ball and pass the ball with great efficiency? How's their offensive line made up?

LT - Jamaal Brown, former 1st round pick
LG - Jamar Nesbitt, free agent signee, 11 year veteran, former UDFA
C - Jeff Faine, free agent signee, former 1st round pick (21st overall)
RG - Jahari Evans, rookie 4th round pick, former offensive tackle
RT - Jonathan Stintchcomb, former 2nd round pick

Faine wasn't a marquee signing, but the team knew what they were looking for and got themselves a player. I bet that these guys aren't in the Top 10 in spending along the offensive line, either. I don't think Brown was even a Top 15 selection.

Heck, look at the Bengals, another team with a complete offensive attack:

LT - Levi Jones, former 1st round pick
LG - Erick Steinbach, former 2nd round pick
C - Rich Braham, 12 year NFL veteran, former UDFA
RG - Bobbie Williams, free agent signee, former 2nd round pick
RT - Willie Anderson, 11 year NFL veteran, fomer top 10 pick

It's not just about loading up on high picks. It's about knowing what you want to do with the players that you have, and finding guys that are going to fit your system.

Great Post, K9. And the last paragraf is right on the money.

Funny, after so many discussions between us, we are 99% in agreement about the OL. In terms of comparison, the Saints and Bengals are probably the best examples. The Chiefs could work as well.

BTW Brown was selected 13th overall. (Not that it changes our point, just making a minor correction)

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Yeah, but they can't run the ball, either. They pass on something like 70% of their offensive downs. That's a truly bad example to use. Look at the San Diego Chargers' offensive line:

LT - Marcus McNeill, rookie 2nd round pick
LG - Kris Dielman, UDFA
C - Nick Hardwick, 3rd round pick
RG - Mike Goff, Free-agent signee, 3rd round pick
RT - Shane Olivea, 3rd round pick

This isn't breaking the bank on guys; it's building a group and letting them play together. You won't find a better, hungrier bunch of players in the NFL.

And what about the New Orleans Saints? A team that can run the ball and pass the ball with great efficiency? How's their offensive line made up?

LT - Jamaal Brown, former 1st round pick
LG - Jamar Nesbitt, free agent signee, 11 year veteran, former UDFA
C - Jeff Faine, free agent signee, former 1st round pick (21st overall)
RG - Jahari Evans, rookie 4th round pick, former offensive tackle
RT - Jonathan Stintchcomb, former 2nd round pick

Faine wasn't a marquee signing, but the team knew what they were looking for and got themselves a player. I bet that these guys aren't in the Top 10 in spending along the offensive line, either. I don't think Brown was even a Top 15 selection.

Heck, look at the Bengals, another team with a complete offensive attack:

LT - Levi Jones, former 1st round pick
LG - Erick Steinbach, former 2nd round pick
C - Rich Braham, 12 year NFL veteran, former UDFA
RG - Bobbie Williams, free agent signee, former 2nd round pick
RT - Willie Anderson, 11 year NFL veteran, fomer top 10 pick

It's not just about loading up on high picks. It's about knowing what you want to do with the players that you have, and finding guys that are going to fit your system.

One other slight correction,Olivea was a 7th round pick from OSU but has started since he wasa rookie.