Worst Bench in the League

[slinslin]

Property of your Phoenix Suns.

http://www.hoopsstats.com/nbarankings.php?season=04&sec=7&order=diffeff&width=1600

1. Memphis
2. Milwaukee
...
...
29. Phoenix

Sacramento, Dallas and Lakers are the only teams with higher scoring starting 5s.

 

[George O'Brien]

I'm not sure the term "worst" is accurate, but they certainly don't score.

Right now the situation is strained because Voskuhl and Harvey are injured, Eisley has played himself off the team, Lampe and Carbakapa are erratic, and Jacobsen has not been shooting very much. White would score more if he could hit his free throws. I keep hoping that Lampe becomes more agressive at taking the ball to the hoop to higher pecentage shots and foul shots.

 

[Chaz]

Not suprising really, while the starters have improved since the trade and Amare getting healthy, the bench has not shown much improvement.
There have been signs of life in Lampe, Zarko, and White but a real scoring threat at guard or small forward is missing.
Jacobsen is a strange case he seems life a bit of a stop gap player in the rotation right now. He doesn't do much offensively but he won't get you killed on defense. If Casey could learn hit the midrange jumper and how to get open off screens he could be very valuble in the fourth or fifth scoring role.

They clearly have some work to do building the bench this summer but I think it needs to be focused in the backcourt.

 

[George O'Brien]

Not suprising really, while the starters have improved since the trade and Amare getting healthy, the bench has not shown much improvement.
There have been signs of life in Lampe, Zarko, and White but a real scoring threat at guard or small forward is missing.
Jacobsen is a strange case he seems life a bit of a stop gap player in the rotation right now. He doesn't do much offensively but he won't get you killed on defense. If Casey could learn hit the midrange jumper and how to get open off screens he could be very valuble in the fourth or fifth scoring role.

They clearly have some work to do building the bench this summer but I think it needs to be focused in the backcourt.

I agree completely. BTW, Casey's shooting percentage for 3 pointers is the same as it is for field goals. I honestly expect him to make improvements over the summer, but I don't think the Suns can count on him to be an impact player. (At least he's not terribly expensive).

If nothing else, Vujanic should give the Suns some instant offense off the bench unless he replaces Leandro at PG/SG. But I am guessing the Suns will be looking for another shooter even if Kobe does not come through.

 

[Chaplin]

The Youngest Team in the League suffers most with their bench.

But the Suns are an anomaly, we have a horrid bench BECAUSE we're so young, but our starting 5 is one of the best in the league. A very strange combination. That's why many of us agree that we won't be in this position this year, with or without Kobe Bryant.

 

[George O'Brien]

I really think the Suns will have a much stronger bench next season as their younger players mature and get more experience. I expect that the Suns will be adding Vujanic, their draft pick and at least one free agent. Re-signing Dice would help on depth as well as give some veteran leadership.

 

[Goldfield]

Your bench isnt gunna be very good when you trade away 2 starters & release Scott Williams...


I agree we have some key players on this team. I think we just need to get a dependable center like a Dampier, and draft a solid defensive backup bigman like Okafor...

Both of which are not far from reality...

PG:Vujanic/Barbosa

SG:JJ/Barbosa(I think Barbosa has alot of talent, but would be best if he backed up both spots)

SF:Marion/Zarko(two guys that can play AND are hard to match up against. I could also see a trade using Marion to get Kobe)

PF:Amare/Okafor(OMG would that be awsome)

C: Dampier? Lampe(I would start Lampe if we dont get a FA center, he is raw but the kid has alot of potential)

Just going 2 deep, we would be a 100% different team. Improved starters & great depth...

 

[slinslin]

Vujanic averages about 13ppg 1rpg 1apg in europe and he is supposed to be our starting PG?

 

[BigBuddy]

Vujanic averages about 13ppg 1rpg 1apg in europe and he is supposed to be our starting PG?

Don't know where you take that numbers from. Vujanic scores over 17ppg and last season he averaged over 25ppg.

 

[George O'Brien]

Your bench isnt gunna be very good when you trade away 2 starters & release Scott Williams...

Good point. The Suns decision to give their young players court time by unloading older players was not based on winning more games.

Also, the Suns have played with only four guards since the Marbury deal and stopped using Eisley (they claim he' injured ) If the Suns were a contender there were some backup type guards that might have helped.

I agree we have some key players on this team. I think we just need to get a dependable center like a Dampier, and draft a solid defensive backup bigman like Okafor...

Both of which are not far from reality...

I think Dampier is going to be completely out of the Suns price range. Plus he wants to play in the Eastern Conference where he can be All-Star. I expect there will be a sign and trade.

PG:Vujanic/Barbosa

SG:JJ/Barbosa(I think Barbosa has alot of talent, but would be best if he backed up both spots)

I think the Suns are going to actively pursue a shooting guard in the off season. Kobe gets the attention but even if that falls through the Suns need at least one more guard. BTW, I would not be shocked if Eisley was cut if the Suns cannot offload him.

SF:Marion/Zarko(two guys that can play AND are hard to match up against. I could also see a trade using Marion to get Kobe)

Zarko is going to have to get a LOT stronger if he is going to be an NBA player. Right now his defense is hopeless and he is not active on the glass for a guy who is almost 7'0". None the less, if the Suns add another guard JJ may see minutes at SF so I'm not inclined to draft an SF except as BPA.

PF:Amare/Okafor(OMG would that be awsome)

I'm big on getting Okafor as a BPA although Howard is certainly a possibility.

C: Dampier? Lampe(I would start Lampe if we dont get a FA center, he is raw but the kid has alot of potential)

I think Lampe is the Suns center of the future, which is why I don't think they will do a max to get Dampier. I think the Suns may end up using Dice as the starting center until Lampe is ready.

The only FA center I can see the Suns taking a run at is Mark Blount of the Celtics, who don't hold his Bird rights. He has been playing well lately and may be available at or below mid cap. Dampier, Camby, and Okur are all likely to be a lot more expensive, although the bidding on Mark Blount might get out of hand.

 

[slinslin]

Don't know where you take that numbers from. Vujanic scores over 17ppg and last season he averaged over 25ppg.

http://www.euroleague.net/plantillas/jugador.jsp?id=AUP

13 or 16 or 17 whatever.

How about 29 assists, 31 turnovers and 26 rebounds in 16 games this year?

I am sorry but depending on what kind of contract Vujanic wants it might be a much better idea to draft a PG with the Cavs pick if we have it.

 

[George O'Brien]

http://www.euroleague.net/plantillas/jugador.jsp?id=AUP

13 or 16 or 17 whatever.

How about 29 assists, 31 turnovers and 26 rebounds in 16 games this year?

I am sorry but depending on what kind of contract Vujanic wants it might be a much better idea to draft a PG with the Cavs pick if we have it.

Personally, I envision Vujanic as more of a Dwayne Wade combo player than a pure point guard. The position he plays will be defined by what the Suns do in the FA area more than in the draft.

We don't know how many of the college PG's will be coming out. It is not impossible that a PG would be the PPA, but I'm not convinced that they will be any better than Barbosa a year from now.

BTW, for the Cleveland pick (if it happens), I'd take a look at Luke Jackson. In the few times I've watched him play he looked more athletic than I was led to expect and is an above average passer. This goes with being one the best outside shooters in the college basketball.

 

[slinslin]

Luke Jackson is a Casey Jacobsen type of player. We already have a shooting guard who plays 40mpg, we plan to sign a superstar shooting guard for 100M$, our starting PG doesn't even average 3apg which leads to believe that he is a shooting guard as well and Vujanic doesn't even average 2 apg or more assists than turnovers which leads to the same assumption.

In short, the Suns have no PG.

 

[George O'Brien]

Luke Jackson is a Casey Jacobsen type of player. We already have a shooting guard who plays 40mpg, we plan to sign a superstar shooting guard for 100M$, our starting PG doesn't even average 3apg which leads to believe that he is a shooting guard as well and Vujanic doesn't even average 2 apg or more assists than turnovers which leads to the same assumption.

In short, the Suns have no PG.

Barbosa played in secondary league in Brazil last year and is just learning the position. Joe Johnson is just learning to play the point as well. In spite of this, the Suns have been scoring fairly well over the past month.

BTW, Bibby of the Kings makes 5.5 assists per game while JJ has averaged 4.2 - and JJ has only recently been the team point guard. My point is not that JJ is a great point guard, but that Bibby who is a top point guard does not get that many assists. A lot of assists reflects passing the ball, but not so many assists may simply reflect the kind of offense the team runs.
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I can't see taking Jackson if they are sure to sign Kobe. However, if they don't sign a veteran guard another shooter is a must. Right now I'm not convinced Casey is that guy.

 

[Chaz]

Your bench isnt gunna be very good when you trade away 2 starters & release Scott Williams...

Very true.

I agree we have some key players on this team. I think we just need to get a dependable center like a Dampier, and draft a solid defensive backup bigman like Okafor...

Both of which are not far from reality...

What about Dampier history makes him dependable? I would not be real excited to get Eric "is this a contract year" Dampier. I do think that a signing to help at center is probably needed, spending big money on inconsistant players is not the best course. Center will always be a stop-gap position unless thay can find that rare "dominant center" that every team (except the 3 or 4 that have one) are looking for.
While you don't need a particulary skilled player you do need some size to compete at center. The center position is the anchor of a team, You may not need it all the time but you do need it you are glad you have it.

 

[slinslin]

Bibby doesn't get a lot of assists because Divac, Webber and Miller average about the same assists as JJ at least without looking it up.

They say you are born as a Point Guard and it really isn't something that you can learn.

Also I am pretty damn sure Barbosa didn't play in brazil's second division.

Barbosa is a pretty good spot-up shooter, fastbreak finisher, defender against the pass but that's it right now.
His defensive fundamentals man to man are very raw, his playmaking in the halfcourt is not really there and he has not shown penetrate and kick ability either.

Maybe he can become a good PG but it looks like he will be "just" a good backup 1/2.
If the Suns want to win many more games next season even if they don't get Kobe they better get a starting caliber PG.

 

[George O'Brien]

What about Dampier history makes him dependable? I would not be real excited to get Eric "is this a contract year" Dampier. I do think that a signing to help at center is probably needed, spending big money on inconsistant players is not the best course. Center will always be a stop-gap position unless thay can find that rare "dominant center" that every team (except the 3 or 4 that have one) are looking for.

While you don't need a particulary skilled player you do need some size to compete at center. The center position is the anchor of a team, You may not need it all the time but you do need it you are glad you have it.

I'd love to have Dampier, but not at the price he is going to command and the length contract he will get. Any guy that can turn down over $16 million for the next two years to "test the waters" and hires a very agressive agent is going to be very pricy.

 

[Chaz]

I'd love to have Dampier, but not at the price he is going to command and the length contract he will get. Any guy that can turn down over $16 million for the next two years to "test the waters" and hires a very agressive agent is going to be very pricy.

The guy has basketball skill there is no doubt. I can't seperate the game and the player unfortunately. I guy his age with his history with his expected salary demands I not a guy I would not pursue. I also think players numbers, production, and level of play on a particular team are a complete picture of how a player would do on another team. There are too many variables in changing teams and locations.

I think someone will pay Dampier and he may turn out to be very valuable, or he may not ever reach his current level of production again.

 

[Chaz]

Luke Jackson is a Casey Jacobsen type of player. We already have a shooting guard who plays 40mpg, we plan to sign a superstar shooting guard for 100M$, our starting PG doesn't even average 3apg which leads to believe that he is a shooting guard as well and Vujanic doesn't even average 2 apg or more assists than turnovers which leads to the same assumption.

In short, the Suns have no PG

I would like to see a guy that can shoot and score the basketball. I don't care if it is a PG, SG, or SF. I think there are enough guys right now between JJ, Barbosa, and Vujanic that can hande the ball and start the offense. I am not even opposed to Eisley as a backup if he is utilized properly and doesn't hog the ball too much.

 

[slinslin]

We have good shooters and our shooting will definately improve once they learn to play better inside and out with Amare in the post.

In fact our FG% has been pretty good in the last 30 games or so.

Only Washington, Houston and Miami average less assists per game than us and we don't play as slow as Houston. Washington didn't have their starting PG for most of the year.
Memphis which I think plays a simliliar kind of offense that D'Antoni wants to play averages a lot more assists than us.
1. Sac 26.7apg 13.4TOpg
2. New Jersey 24.1apg 14.0TOpg
3. LA Lakers 24.0apg 13.1TOpg
4. Dallas 23.5apg 11.9TOpg
5. Memphis 23.3apg 14.3 TOpg
...
...
26. Phoenix 19.4apg 14.5TOpg


We are 8th in FG%!

 

[Chaz]

We have good shooters and our shooting will definately improve once they learn to play better inside and out with Amare in the post.

In fact our FG% has been pretty good in the last 30 games or so.

Only Washington, Houston and Miami average less assists per game than us and we don't play as slow as Houston. Washington didn't have their starting PG for most of the year.
Memphis which I think plays a simliliar kind of offense that D'Antoni wants to play averages a lot more assists than us.
1. Sac 26.7apg 13.4TOpg
2. New Jersey 24.1apg 14.0TOpg
3. LA Lakers 24.0apg 13.1TOpg
4. Dallas 23.5apg 11.9TOpg
5. Memphis 23.3apg 14.3 TOpg
...
...
26. Phoenix 19.4apg 14.5TOpg


We are 8th in FG%!

A big part of our FG% is the close shots we are creating and the layup from steals. Any numbers on points in the paint during those games?

Who off the bench has a consistant outside shot or is an adept at generating some consistant point production? I think Lampe and Zarko will grow into that role in the front court next year. Right now the Suns have Jacobsen and Vujanic to fill that role, both are question marks at best.

 

[jorje29]

13 in a row

Phoenix-Bench has lost 13 games in a row ( from the opponent-bench ) !!



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