Ouchie-Z-Clown
I'm better than Mulli!
Haha, birthday weekend. I’ve been distracted. I’ll see if I can find time to post some.
Wow. What Joe Thomas said.
- Thread starter slanidrac16
- Start date
Ouchie-Z-Clown
I'm better than Mulli!
Sando:
http://www.espn.com/nfl/insider/sto...even-nfl-teams-had-most-compelling-offseasons
Bowen:
http://www.espn.com/nfl/draft2019/i...5-rookies-2019-nfl-draft-landed-perfect-teams
http://www.walterfootball.com/offseason2019arz.php
https://bleacherreport.com/articles...-teams-offseason-before-the-2019-draft#slide1
That’s just a quick search by a guy who’s not good at searches.
http://www.espn.com/nfl/insider/sto...even-nfl-teams-had-most-compelling-offseasons
Bowen:
http://www.espn.com/nfl/draft2019/i...5-rookies-2019-nfl-draft-landed-perfect-teams
http://www.walterfootball.com/offseason2019arz.php
https://bleacherreport.com/articles...-teams-offseason-before-the-2019-draft#slide1
That’s just a quick search by a guy who’s not good at searches.
Solar7
Go Suns
This is where I struggle, Ouchie. No other team had this many linemen drafted. Regard is regard. Are they all going to be stars? No. Are they all going to be starters? No. Do they represent more drafted linemen than any other team? Yes.
Many QBs get one or two draftees to protect them... not 4 out of 5. Pretending this isn't laudable for a college offensive line in the modern era is being intentionally ignorant. Do you think any of them were really poor to mediocre college offensive line players? Anyone that's getting horribly overrated, but was actually terrible, and Kyler masked their inability to play?
Sando: "Compelling" means interesting, not successful. The article mentions a barren roster. As long as I'm on point and we're talking about those who are saying the Cardinals are wildly improved, this one doesn't hit the mark.
Bowen: Yeah, this is Kyler's perfect fit. Does that article imply success for the Cards this season? Still no.
Walter Football: A B+ grade on the draft we had, with the first pick of players, doesn't really say we're going to suddenly take the world by storm. We're a bad football team that had a pretty decent go of it, but that still isn't translating to wins.
Bleacher Report: Ending your blurb with "This team needs all the help it can get" is not an endorsement of the team succeeding.
None of your articles refute @kerouac9's ask. At best, they're: "This team is awful, but new guys have to fix it, right? Maybe?"
Ouchie-Z-Clown
I'm better than Mulli!
Or maybe they all look better because he elevated them? If joe Thomas (a likely HOF offensive lineman - just feel a lot of readers need that reminder) is correct in his statement that a mobile QB makes it easier on the oline, maybe they all got overdrafted due to his play elevating them.
Ouchie-Z-Clown
I'm better than Mulli!
Solar7
Go Suns
It's a chicken or the egg argument, sure, but as a long term football aficionado, stop and be honest with yourself. Is the offensive line really a place where you think the QB makes five guys look better? I've heard of guys being "thrown open," but are QBs now really running linemen into their blocking assignments?
This is pushing the myth of Kyler, or any mobile QB, way too far.
Ouchie-Z-Clown
I'm better than Mulli!
Ouchie-Z-Clown
I'm better than Mulli!
A) Again, I’m going to believe now TWO professionals over the joe schmoes on this board. If those guys say it’s true, I give them the benefit of the doubt.
B) guess we will see. If Murray succeeds and those dudes are either outta the league or buried on teams I guess we know the actual answer.
Solar7
Go Suns
Edit: @Ouchie-Z-Clown, everything got broken in the process of me replying to you and our edits. Hopefully this makes enough sense, since it still shows me quoting your posts in my reply, but won't actually quote them...
This is a broken quote, but the point is that they're NFL caliber players. They have proven it by being drafted. They're better quality than almost any NCAA QB gets in their best season. Again, it's better than 'Bama, better than Clemson, it's pretty unprecedented. It's cause for concern when looking at Kyler's body of work, because he had a wonderful amount of talent keeping him safe. I don't understand how you can fight against the idea that these were very solid players, regardless of whether or not they turn out to be NFL starters, backups, or even less. It means they were at the top of their game, if only for a moment - one of the best 253 players in a given year.
Broken quoting again. But, the Seahawks drafting Shaquem Griffin to play alongside his brother equally qualifies as a "compelling story," because it evokes interest in an irresistible way. It does not mean it's equated to on-the-field success.
You and I both talked about success on the field for the Cardinals. Both @kerouac9 and I called you on pundits not seeing major success for the team, and that's why Kerouac brought it up again. It's not "there's zero positive press," it's "this team ain't winning much this year, and very few think we are." I'm doing my best to parse my words for you here, so we can avoid hyperbole.
The argument was based on a previous piece where you told me you didn't know where I was getting my info from, because you'd only read positive articles about the Cards, after I said most articles aren't exactly glowing. I even mentioned some articles saying that we had the most impactful rookie class, but that doesn't mean it's positive, and that this is going to be a winning team.
We're going to be a bad team, hopefully with some positives, which is what it boils down to, and if you read my post as anything but "no one is saying this is going to be a successful team," then you're being far too literal.
This is a broken quote, but the point is that they're NFL caliber players. They have proven it by being drafted. They're better quality than almost any NCAA QB gets in their best season. Again, it's better than 'Bama, better than Clemson, it's pretty unprecedented. It's cause for concern when looking at Kyler's body of work, because he had a wonderful amount of talent keeping him safe. I don't understand how you can fight against the idea that these were very solid players, regardless of whether or not they turn out to be NFL starters, backups, or even less. It means they were at the top of their game, if only for a moment - one of the best 253 players in a given year.
Broken quoting again. But, the Seahawks drafting Shaquem Griffin to play alongside his brother equally qualifies as a "compelling story," because it evokes interest in an irresistible way. It does not mean it's equated to on-the-field success.
You and I both talked about success on the field for the Cardinals. Both @kerouac9 and I called you on pundits not seeing major success for the team, and that's why Kerouac brought it up again. It's not "there's zero positive press," it's "this team ain't winning much this year, and very few think we are." I'm doing my best to parse my words for you here, so we can avoid hyperbole.
The argument was based on a previous piece where you told me you didn't know where I was getting my info from, because you'd only read positive articles about the Cards, after I said most articles aren't exactly glowing. I even mentioned some articles saying that we had the most impactful rookie class, but that doesn't mean it's positive, and that this is going to be a winning team.
We're going to be a bad team, hopefully with some positives, which is what it boils down to, and if you read my post as anything but "no one is saying this is going to be a successful team," then you're being far too literal.
Solar7
Go Suns
A) One professional who has never played with a decent QB, and one professional who has played with Kyler in shorts over a weekend.
B) Even if those guys have hugely successful careers and Kyler fails, I won't be pointing to their talent as the sole reason he succeeded in college. This is the stupid part of the argument. Kyler has had everything go right for him in the last year as far as football is concerned. All of these elements contribute to a big picture of doubt. Many Kyler fans seem to want to look at these things in a vacuum.
Issues:
- His surrounding talent was elite, maybe to the point of making him look better than he is
Concerning, but at least he made the most of his opportunity
- He's historically short
Concerning, but some near him have overcome this
- He's very invested in another sport, that is healthier for him long term
Concerning, but he may just really love football this much
- Football makes him more money in the short term
Concerning, but see above
- He's poor in interviews and with the media
Concerning, but he's a football player, not a TV personality
- He left multiple teams across sports high and dry
Concerning, but the guy has his valid reasons in each instance
- He didn't participate in any workouts outside of his comfort zone
Concerning, but he's got to have his best interests in mind
I'm not going through the whole list, but man, people just need to stop playing the "in a vacuum" game. The issue is a sum of all parts. There is concern after concern, and 13 games of football making people blind to this.
Ouchie-Z-Clown
I'm better than Mulli!
One lineman is a HALL OF FAMER. To argue that anyone on this board has more insight into how things impact play on the field is literally the funniest argument I’ve ever seen made. The other played with Ben Rothlisberger who is 100% a mobile QB. He might not rack up yardage but no one can argue he’s a statue. He’s a dude who extends and extends and extends plays. Again, I’ll take their input over you and k9 every day of the week without blinking. And I’m not saying that to be dismissive of you guys, it’s just literally the smartest course of action to take.
Oh, and in regard to all the concerns, which have been stated as nauseum and addressed as nauseum . . . none of them stack up to what he actually does on the field . . . you know, play football.
Solar7
Go Suns
A likely HALL OF FAMER who never blocked for a successful rushing QB, or really any successful QB. Roflcopter is also not a tiny guy running past players, he's the biggest, most prototypical, antithesis-to-your-argument player you could pick. He eclipsed 200 yards rushing a singular time, more than a decade ago. Let's see if Marcus Gilbert can start a full season of football before we pretend he knows how to judge a QB in shorts.
It's a thrill and a half that we're trusting a tackle's judgment that has played two full seasons in 8 years with the same statuesque guy to level set how great it is to have a mobile QB.
Krangodnzr
Captain of Team Conner
Like I've pointed out a dozen times, there is never any criticism of his actual play.
"Kyler Murray's third grade teacher says he took an extra cupcake during Sally Jo's birthday! See! He has character concerns!"
You never hear them say he sucks at a certain throw or cant read a defense. You know why they dont? Because they got nothing. They are blind little, biased men who have all fallen for groupthink.
Sample size and height are Murrays only issues. The rest are contrived to make him appear worse than he is because they are scared to jump on the wagon.
I know I'm going to stand at the edge of the wagon and mock them heavily when they come for their helping of crow. It's coming...and they'll all lose every bit of credibility because Murray is obviously a phenomenal player and they are missing out.
Krangodnzr
Captain of Team Conner
Ridiculous.
Solar knows more about blocking than Joe Thomas. An all time great offensive lineman.
Your arguments are literally the worst.
This is the second worst argument I've seen on this board, next to Michael Vick is better than blah blah blah because he has a better Madden rating.
Solar7
Go Suns
You're either not reading my posts, are intentionally ignoring them, or just don't care, but I've given plenty of reasons I don't think the kid is a world-beater. The talent around him being the biggest thing. I can maybe count three passes after watching time and time again where the guy puts in place for no-one else to catch it. Everything he did for that team, watching the tape, is putting it to players who are dominating their defender.
I'll give you this, Mahomes did the same thing last year. That baseball ball placement is amazing. I anticipate Mahomes struggling with no running game or receivers, though. Kyler has no-one to go to. There's no reading a defense when Hollywood Brown is making an awful defensive group look foolish, or Kyler has until a 7 count to make his throw.
Again, it's real, on the field, on the tape stuff. Which makes it additionally challenging with some of the other stuff he brings to the table.
OP
OP
People bash others for turning every thread into a Murray thread. Many of the bashers are the guilty parties of this.
This post was quoting one of the best o-lineman in the history of the game. He simply said a moving pocket and mobile QB’s makes it easier for a lineman.
How anyone can downgrade his opinion because “ he’s never played with a running QB” or “ he’s never played with a good QB” is simply asinine.
Counting pee-wee football, high school, college and an all -pro career I think with 20 plus years of experience he qualifies as an expert on the subject.
As Krang posted above. Ridiculous.
This post was quoting one of the best o-lineman in the history of the game. He simply said a moving pocket and mobile QB’s makes it easier for a lineman.
How anyone can downgrade his opinion because “ he’s never played with a running QB” or “ he’s never played with a good QB” is simply asinine.
Counting pee-wee football, high school, college and an all -pro career I think with 20 plus years of experience he qualifies as an expert on the subject.
As Krang posted above. Ridiculous.
SECTION 11
vibraslap
The problem is that those are all totally contrived concerns.
Not accurate, that would be a concern. Teammates don’t believe in him, that would be a concern. Slow. No feel for the pocket. Can’t read defenses. Arrests. Failed drug tests. Those are concerns. The other stuff is just noise.
Krangodnzr
Captain of Team Conner
I have read your posts and I am flat out calling it ********, biased groupthink.
You attack him leaving Texas A&M and Oakland As. It's a ridiculous argument against him. QBs transfer all of the time. Kevin Sumlin screwed over all his QBs (according to his QBs), but you insist hes disloyal. Lame contrived argument.
You attack great supporting cast. Luck had a really good supporting cast. Others have had a great supporting cast. It's a better argument, bit what you are missing is that Murray is making ridiculous throws as well. It's not Jason White or Josh Heupel who made college throws to great players. Murray makes throws that few NFL QBs can make.
You attack his durability. Why??? Brcause hes short? Hes not thin. Hes 211. Yes he runs yes, but he avoids contact. You say he wont be able to but we have a clear comparison of a player like him who avoids contact just like he does and the guy rarely takes big shots. You also fawn over Luck who has missed over a season and a half because he takes big shots all the time. Hes not a massive injury risk, you think he is ok whatever but there isnt a compelling reason to believe he is.
You claim he has an overbearing helicopter dad, and how many times have we heard from Kevin Murray? Ridiculous.
You claim he hasn't proved anything because he didnt work out. He did for the Cardinals. Hes not the first guy to do this and he wont be the last. It's underwear Olympics. Who cares?
I could go on and on but the vast majority of critiques you have are the process you are going through to talk yourself out of liking K1. The fact of the matter us that a bunch of us on the board dont agree, the Cardinals dont agree, and despite your misgivings, he is your QB. You can continue to obsess over it but it's not changing anything.
OP
OP
You are wrong. Solar likes Murray , he just thinks he’s gonna suck.
Solar7
Go Suns
I only "attack" that all of these things are flags that give me concern and pause about the guy. He can prove me wrong into the future. He's already proving me wrong about his dad.
As far as attacking his durability, I'm attacking that a QB that takes off and runs, or is in designed runs, is going to get brutally hit more than guys who don't. Simple as that. An unprotected rushing QB is just a major target. Russell Wilson has mostly avoided it, but pretty much no one else has gotten as lucky as he has.
Also, you and others have got to stop the "he's your QB" talk like it's the Trump presidency. I do not need to root for the guy, just like I didn't need to root for Derek Anderson back in the day.
"Suck" is overwhelming. I think he is going to be a middle of the road player that has some exciting moments, but ultimately never becomes a true star. I've made this comparison plenty of times, but I think we end up with the equivalent of Marcus Mariota, where we're still hoping he gets it together in 5 years.
Crimson Warrior
Dangerous Murray Zealot
I have to jump in here on the supporting cast deal Solar7. I disagree with you based on what Murray had, because of what Mayfield had. Let's compare.
2017 - Mayfield
Oline - basically the same oline as Kyler's, except that Mayfield had the LT Orlando Brown, drafted in 2018 in the 3rd round by the Ravens
WRs - Mayfield's top two were M. Brown, and Lamb. (Just like Murray)
RB - here's the biggest difference. Mayfield had a kid named Rodney Anderson with him in the backfield, and Anderson was an absolute difference maker. Solar7, Mayfield had a significantly better running game (and receiving option out of the backfield) supporting him than did Murray.
TE - Mayfield had Mark Andrews, drafted in the 3rd round by the Ravens (weird I know, there are about 50 sooners on BAL roster). Significant advantage to Mayfield here too.
2018 - Murray
Oline - great oline. Cody Ford (drafted in the 2nd round in 2019) replaced Orlando Brown.
WRs - M. Brown and Lamb
RB - Anderson blew out his knee vs UCLA (2nd game) in 2018. Trey Sermon was a bruiser, but not as good a runner, and nowhere near the receiver that Anderson was.
TE - A capable kid named Calcevecia, but not nearly as dangerous as M. Andrews.
My overriding point Solar7, is that Mayfield had a better supporting cast than Murray, and yet despite having an excellent supporting cast, Mayfield has not failed at the NFL level.
My conclusion is, that Murray's very good supporting cast shouldn't be counted against him, in terms of evaluating his chances to be successful at the NFL level.
Does that makes sense sir?
2017 - Mayfield
Oline - basically the same oline as Kyler's, except that Mayfield had the LT Orlando Brown, drafted in 2018 in the 3rd round by the Ravens
WRs - Mayfield's top two were M. Brown, and Lamb. (Just like Murray)
RB - here's the biggest difference. Mayfield had a kid named Rodney Anderson with him in the backfield, and Anderson was an absolute difference maker. Solar7, Mayfield had a significantly better running game (and receiving option out of the backfield) supporting him than did Murray.
TE - Mayfield had Mark Andrews, drafted in the 3rd round by the Ravens (weird I know, there are about 50 sooners on BAL roster). Significant advantage to Mayfield here too.
2018 - Murray
Oline - great oline. Cody Ford (drafted in the 2nd round in 2019) replaced Orlando Brown.
WRs - M. Brown and Lamb
RB - Anderson blew out his knee vs UCLA (2nd game) in 2018. Trey Sermon was a bruiser, but not as good a runner, and nowhere near the receiver that Anderson was.
TE - A capable kid named Calcevecia, but not nearly as dangerous as M. Andrews.
My overriding point Solar7, is that Mayfield had a better supporting cast than Murray, and yet despite having an excellent supporting cast, Mayfield has not failed at the NFL level.
My conclusion is, that Murray's very good supporting cast shouldn't be counted against him, in terms of evaluating his chances to be successful at the NFL level.
Does that makes sense sir?
Solar7
Go Suns
It all makes sense, but Mayfield has a few years ahead of him before I start to anoint him anything. The early returns indicate that he's pretty good, but let's see what happens when the spotlight is on him and there's a target painted on his back. Nonetheless, he had four years of college football to look back on, and a ton of passion to prove any naysayers wrong by participating in everything that he could.I have to jump in here on the supporting cast deal Solar7. I disagree with you based on what Murray had, because of what Mayfield had. Let's compare.
2017 - Mayfield
Oline - basically the same oline as Kyler's, except that Mayfield had the LT Orlando Brown, drafted in 2018 in the 3rd round by the Ravens
WRs - Mayfield's top two were M. Brown, and Lamb. (Just like Murray)
RB - here's the biggest difference. Mayfield had a kid named Rodney Anderson with him in the backfield, and Anderson was an absolute difference maker. Solar7, Mayfield had a significantly better running game (and receiving option out of the backfield) supporting him than did Murray.
TE - Mayfield had Mark Andrews, drafted in the 3rd round by the Ravens (weird I know, there are about 50 sooners on BAL roster). Significant advantage to Mayfield here too.
2018 - Murray
Oline - great oline. Cody Ford (drafted in the 2nd round in 2019) replaced Orlando Brown.
WRs - M. Brown and Lamb
RB - Anderson blew out his knee vs UCLA (2nd game) in 2018. Trey Sermon was a bruiser, but not as good a runner, and nowhere near the receiver that Anderson was.
TE - A capable kid named Calcevecia, but not nearly as dangerous as M. Andrews.
My overriding point Solar7, is that Mayfield had a better supporting cast than Murray, and yet despite having an excellent supporting cast, Mayfield has not failed at the NFL level.
My conclusion is, that Murray's very good supporting cast shouldn't be counted against him, in terms of evaluating his chances to be successful at the NFL level.
Does that makes sense sir?
Krangodnzr
Captain of Team Conner
Mayfield probably isnt drafted 1st overall if he participated in nothing.
Why does that bother you so much that Murray didnt work out? Are the underwear Olympics that important to you?
Solar7
Go Suns
Yes, doing everything in your power to prove to an organization that you are the right candidate is something I expect. I would expect it hiring someone who makes $50,000 a year, why wouldn't I hold that standard to someone who is going to make $30 million and holds the profitability of my business in their hand?
Dr. Jones
Has No Time For Love
- Joined
- Nov 2, 2004
- Posts
- 27,958
- Reaction score
- 16,829
I know..... Sometimes I can be too confident for my own good.
I'll have whatever delusions you're having please.
I just have this really crazy feeling. And my gut is usually right when I get this way.
