Yahoo's Jason Cole on Peyton, Kolb, and Skelton

[Cbus cardsfan]

So did Max Hall. Just because you really, really, REALLY want to be good doesn't mean that you actually are.

. What does that have to do with what I said?

 

[Chopper0080]

I think that the facts are any QB who can come in, play well, and help the team will "have the locker room." Leadership in the NFL, more than any other business, is determined by production especially at the QB position. Great personalitites that don't produce at QB are cut from the roster without any tears in the locker room. If a QB can't get the ball to his players, those players are going to take his words with a grain of salt. Wins/stats are what matters to NFL players in regards to QBs.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

. What does that have to do with what I said?

You stated that Kolb was a work-a-holic, very professional, and a nice guy.

As K9 said, so was Max Hall.

If hard work, professionalism, and a good personality was all it took to be a good NFL starting QB, I don't think we would be having a hard time finding a starter.

Moxy can only go so far.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

You stated that Kolb was a work-a-holic, very professional, and a nice guy.

As K9 said, so was Max Hall.

If hard work, professionalism, and a good personality was all it took to be a good NFL starting QB, I don't think we would be having a hard time finding a starter.

Moxy can only go so far.

He still has to show he can win games.

But, I also included this important fact.

 

[kerouac9]

But, I also included this important fact.

Who has a better winning percentage as a pro: Kevin Kolb or Max Hall? The answer may surprise you.

 

[BigRedRage]

I dont remember hall winning more than one game, maybe two. including the fumble to the ol td win.

 

[earthsci]

Who has a better winning percentage as a pro: Kevin Kolb or Max Hall? The answer may surprise you.

Kevin Kolb

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Who has a better winning percentage as a pro: Kevin Kolb or Max Hall? The answer may surprise you.

who cares and does that really matter? Who has a better winning % in the SB, Trent Dilfer, Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, John Elway, Jim Kelly, Roger Staubach, or Dan Marino? It's about as relevant.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Peyton Manning.

Not much else to say.

 

[kerouac9]

who cares and does that really matter? Who has a better winning % in the SB, Trent Dilfer, Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, John Elway, Jim Kelly, Roger Staubach, or Dan Marino? It's about as relevant.

A comment like this just illustrates who vacant you know your own argument to be.

The Cards gave up their 2012 second-round pick and DRC for a certified loser. A guy who's winning percentage in a reasonable amount of NFL starts (9 last year, 5 the year before, 2 before that) is below .300.

It's not that "he has to show he can win games," it's that he has to shake the stench of failure off his jersey and out of his hair. He's illustrated that he's totally incapable of doing so in any meaningful way that isn't a running back taking a pass that flies three yards through the air for an extra 70.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

A comment like this just illustrates who vacant you know your own argument to be.

The Cards gave up their 2012 second-round pick and DRC for a certified loser. A guy who's winning percentage in a reasonable amount of NFL starts (9 last year, 5 the year before, 2 before that) is below .300.

It's not that "he has to show he can win games," it's that he has to shake the stench of failure off his jersey and out of his hair. He's illustrated that he's totally incapable of doing so in any meaningful way that isn't a running back taking a pass that flies three yards through the air for an extra 70.

What was the winning % after the same number of starts for Bradshaw, Aikman and Manning?

 

[Phrazbit]

What was the winning % after the same number of starts for Bradshaw, Aikman and Manning?

Were those guys already 27 years old? Did those guys have backups enter the game and start winning 3 times as many games? Did they get injured 4 times in brief PT?

And please, enough with comparing Kolb to rookies. If Kolb is still comparable to a rookie in his development after being around for 5 years then he shouldnt have a job anywhere next year.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

It's not that "he has to show he can win games," it's that he has to shake the stench of failure off his jersey and out of his hair. He's illustrated that he's totally incapable of doing so in any meaningful way that isn't a running back taking a pass that flies three yards through the air for an extra 70.

Are you talking about Kevin Kolb or Alex Smith? Because prior to SF having succes this year, it pretty much describes Smith.

The same Alex Smith, the 1ST OVERALL PICK in the draft. who through his first 14 games had a .285 win %. He never had a winning record in 5 years, a .380 win% through 50 STARTS, never had a QB rating over 82, and was benched numerous times. Yet you constantly tout that loser. I wouldn't call that a stench of failure, I would call that an abhorent vapor of stink. Yet you constantly bash Kolb after 1 year of starts. At least try and be consistent in your arguments. I think picking a loser with the #1 overall pick is much worse than trading the #51 pick and DRC, but that doesn't suit your argument.

 

[Duckjake]

Were those guys already 27 years old? Did those guys have backups enter the game and start winning 3 times as many games? Did they get injured 4 times in brief PT?

And please, enough with comparing Kolb to rookies. If Kolb is still comparable to a rookie in his development after being around for 5 years then he shouldnt have a job anywhere next year.

Hey, maybe Kolb is good luck for his backups. Vick comes in for him and goes 8-3. Skelator comes in for him and goes 5-2. Kolb leaves Philly and Vick is only 7-6. Before Kolb came to the AZ Skelator was 2-2.

 

[kerouac9]

Are you talking about Kevin Kolb or Alex Smith? Because prior to SF having succes this year, it pretty much describes Smith.

The same Alex Smith, the 1ST OVERALL PICK in the draft. who through his first 14 games had a .285 win %. He never had a winning record in 5 years, a .380 win% through 50 STARTS, never had a QB rating over 82, and was benched numerous times. Yet you constantly tout that loser. I wouldn't call that a stench of failure, I would call that an abhorent vapor of stink. Yet you constantly bash Kolb after 1 year of starts. At least try and be consistent in your arguments. I think picking a loser with the #1 overall pick is much worse than trading the #51 pick and DRC, but that doesn't suit your argument.

Jesus, Cbus. Did you ever actually read my posts on Alex Smith, or did you just see the name come up and your eyes rolled up in your head and a film of red covered your vision?

1) Kolb would love to have a QB rating over 82.
2) Even you have to admit at this point that Alex Smith is and was a better option than Kevin Kolb.

That's what my argument was. Not that Alex Smith was an incredible player, a peer of Peyton Manning and Ton Brady. That Alex Smith was the best option that was available in the 2010 offseason for the Arizona Cardinals, and that because of the surplus of drama and dearth of consistency that had surrounded him during his time with San Francisco, he's a better "buy low" option than Kevin Kolb or Matt Hasselback or anyone else that was out there.

Turned out that was exactly the truth, and while the Arizona coaching staff was so enamored with a loser like Kevin Kolb who had been in the same system for 5 years and was still awful, surrounded by All-Pro talent, the NFL Coach of the Year John Harbaugh saw exactly the same thing I did, courted Smith through the lockout, and got a career year out of the guy.

You can continue to try and wave Alex Smith in my face like it's some sort of scarlet letter, but it only makes you look foolish, since you were the once completely wrong about the guy, while I would have spared us our second round pick and $10 million over the next two seasons.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

Were those guys already 27 years old? Did those guys have backups enter the game and start winning 3 times as many games? Did they get injured 4 times in brief PT?

And please, enough with comparing Kolb to rookies. If Kolb is still comparable to a rookie in his development after being around for 5 years then he shouldnt have a job anywhere next year.

QB's are judged on their number of starts; not age or year's holding a clip board.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Jesus, Cbus. Did you ever actually read my posts on Alex Smith, or did you just see the name come up and your eyes rolled up in your head and a film of red covered your vision?

1) Kolb would love to have a QB rating over 82.
Kolb's horrid year, he had a 81.1 rating. His career 76.7 is better than Smith's 76.4 and that was with Smith having a "career year".
2) Even you have to admit at this point that Alex Smith is and was a better option than Kevin Kolb.
Why? He played in the most conservative offense in the NFL because of his inability to make plays. How would he have fared better chucking it 500 times in Arizona? It would have been a disaster just like every other time he was made the focal point of the offense.

That's what my argument was. Not that Alex Smith was an incredible player, a peer of Peyton Manning and Ton Brady. That Alex Smith was the best option that was available in the 2010 offseason for the Arizona Cardinals, and that because of the surplus of drama and dearth of consistency that had surrounded him during his time with San Francisco, he's a better "buy low" option than Kevin Kolb or Matt Hasselback or anyone else that was out there.

Turned out that was exactly the truth, and while the Arizona coaching staff was so enamored with a loser like Kevin Kolb
Let's assume SF had released Smith. Are you going to try and argue he would have been more valued than Kolb? Not a chance.
who had been in the same system for 5 years and was still awful, surrounded by All-Pro talent, the NFL Coach of the Year John Harbaugh saw exactly the same thing I did, courted Smith through the lockout, and got a career year out of the guy.
Maybe you should e-mail Harbaugh that info and he can find a spot in the organization for you.

You can continue to try and wave Alex Smith in my face like it's some sort of scarlet letter, but it only makes you look foolish, since you were the once completely wrong about the guy, while I would have spared us our second round pick and $10 million over the next two seasons.
I don't need Alex Smith to make me look foolish . But in this case you're the one who looks foolish. When they have to completely scale back an offense and still can't throw a pass more than 6 yards downfield that tells me all I need to kow about how they feel about Smith. When they needed him most he can't convert a 3rd down the entire game. I've never heard of a QB not converting a 3rd down the entire game. If that makes me completely wrong, I'm ok with it.[/quote]

So let me get this straight, you give Smith 6 years starting and being undeniably horrific most of the first 5 but Kolb gets the equivalent of 1 year starting(I admit he hasn't been good yet) and he's trash. You give Smith the excuse of having different systems but Kolb goes to a different system this year but that doesn't matter. Alright, gotch' ya.

Answer this, do you consider Smith a bust?

 

[kerouac9]

Why? He played in the most conservative offense in the NFL because of his inability to make plays. How would he have fared better chucking it 500 times in Arizona? It would have been a disaster just like every other time he was made the focal point of the offense.

Let's assume SF had released Smith. Are you going to try and argue he would have been more valued than Kolb? Not a chance.

I don't need Alex Smith to make me look foolish . But in this case you're the one who looks foolish. When they have to completely scale back an offense and still can't throw a pass more than 6 yards downfield that tells me all I need to kow about how they feel about Smith. When they needed him most he can't convert a 3rd down the entire game. I've never heard of a QB not converting a 3rd down the entire game. If that makes me completely wrong, I'm ok with it.

So let me get this straight, you give Smith 6 years starting and being undeniably horrific most of the first 5 but Kolb gets the equivalent of 1 year starting(I admit he hasn't been good yet) and he's trash. You give Smith the excuse of having different systems but Kolb goes to a different system this year but that doesn't matter. Alright, gotch' ya.

Answer this, do you consider Smith a bust?

Alex Smith made the plays when he needed to. He went 13-3 this year. You don't do that if you never make any plays. He advanced his team to the NFC Championship game, nearly won it, and beat the most prolific passer in NFL history on the way AT HIS OWN GAME. C'mon, now, Cbus.

San Francisco didn't release Alex Smith. He was never under contract. He was a free agent when the lockout ended. That's why Harbaugh courted him so aggressively during the lockout; he understood that Alex Smith was the best option available in free agency. Turns out he was right.

I don't know what San Francisco games you were watching, but with a garbage WR corps like the 49ers had, he was still taking shots downfield to Vernon Davis with some regularity. At the same time, is Tom Brady garbage because he rarely throws a pass that goes deeper than 8 yards downfield? Of course not. Why? Because both teams have inferior WR corps and ask those guys just catch the ball and take a couple more steps before going down.

Again, you can't seem to grasp my argument about Alex Smith: He's a Top 20 quarterback. Not Top 10, not even Top 15. He's Top 20. But the guys we have are probably not among the Top 25 quarterbacks in the NFL. Can you even admit that, or are you so closed off on the guy that you can't admit the obvious?

The only year that Alex Smith was undenably horrific was his rookie year. After that, he steadily improved despite being surrounded by constant chaos at offensive coordinator and with complimentary personnel. It's stunning to me that you're so blinded by hate for the Utah product that you can't admit to the mitigating factors in Alex Smith's case while looking at Kevin Kolb in ideal quarterback incubation conditions plays like a rank rookie despite being 28 years old.

No, Alex Smith is not a bust. He's lead the 49ers to a 21-16 record as a starter the past three seasons. He won a playoff game against the hottest team in the NFL. His last three seasons he's had quarterback ratings over 80. He cost his team $4 million last year.

I'll repeat what I've said dozens of times this year every time you've tilted on Alex Smith, and maybe you'll read it and actually respond to my argument: Alex Smith is a league-average quarterback with some upside. That's what he's been the last three years. If you're still going to pound your fist over the player he was in 2005, then I have nothing else to say to you.

Instead, we're stuck with Kevin Kolb, minus our 2012 second-round pick and for about twice the salary cost, who is a below-average to bottom-five NFL quarterback with the hope that he can play like Matt Cassell with a full training camp.

Awesome.

 

[kerouac9]

QB's are judged on their number of starts; not age or year's holding a clip board.

Maybe, but expectations are set by the time you've been in TE league. That's why Kolb isn't eligible for Rookie of the Year honors.

But if you want to compare him to rookies, why not compare him to players in his same era? How'd he compare to Andy Dalton and Cam Newton's winning percentages? T.J. Yates's? Surey Kevin Kolb could outperform a rookie fifth round pick, right?

 

[Crazy Canuck]

Maybe, but expectations are set by the time you've been in TE league. That's why Kolb isn't eligible for Rookie of the Year honors.

But if you want to compare him to rookies, why not compare him to players in his same era? How'd he compare to Andy Dalton and Cam Newton's winning percentages? T.J. Yates's? Surey Kevin Kolb could outperform a rookie fifth round pick, right?

Frankly, I would like to put aside any and all comparisons, and deal with Kolb in light of present reality or near past. His turf toe and concussion after effects have made a true assessment of his viability going forward incomplete, to say the least.

 

[kerouac9]

Frankly, I would like to put aside any and all comparisons, and deal with Kolb in light of present reality or near past. His turf toe and concussion after effects have made a true assessment of his viability going forward incomplete, to say the least.

"To say the least"? I think thy's pretty charitable. It's not like
He was good--or even gettin better--before the injuries. He was getting worse and worse before the turf toe, and never had a game here like he had at his best moments in Philly.

There's plenty of reason for pessimism regarding Kevin Kolb and precious little evidence of hope. You know this, which is why you dismiss comparisons of rookie QBs from the last decade and instead oddly refer to Kolb's staggering lack of durability.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

"To say the least"? I think thy's pretty charitable. It's not like
He was good--or even gettin better--before the injuries. He was getting worse and worse before the turf toe, and never had a game here like he had at his best moments in Philly.

There's plenty of reason for pessimism regarding Kevin Kolb and precious little evidence of hope. You know this, which is why you dismiss comparisons of rookie QBs from the last decade and instead oddly refer to Kolb's staggering lack of durability.

I only "know" that I'm fatigued by the too-and-fro of this argument and hope that with a full off-season, Kolb will prove worthy.

 

[john h]

Maybe not the 2011 group but for sure better than 2010.

I just do not see any team taking a chance on Peyton for the kind of $$$ he would want. I would offer him a one year contract loaded down with incentives and escape clauses. He is the best QB I have seen in 70 years. I would not like to see him end his career on a down note with the Cards. Seems there are always some teams who will throw the dice. Peyton is a smart guy and in the end I think he will make a decision based on his health and not on money.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

I just do not see any team taking a chance on Peyton for the kind of $$$ he would want. I would offer him a one year contract loaded down with incentives and escape clauses. He is the best QB I have seen in 70 years. I would not like to see him end his career on a down note with the Cards. Seems there are always some teams who will throw the dice. Peyton is a smart guy and in the end I think he will make a decision based on his health and not on money.

.... and you won't get him for that...

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Alex Smith made the plays when he needed to. He went 13-3 this year. You don't do that if you never make any plays. You do if your defense leads the league in takeaways at a +30 clip. He advanced his team to the NFC Championship game, nearly won it, and beat the most prolific passer in NFL history on the way AT HIS OWN GAME. C'mon, now, Cbus. He had a good game and I gave him credit. 1 game doesn't make a career.

San Francisco didn't release Alex Smith. He was never under contract. He was a free agent when the lockout ended.I guess that shows how much he was valued if I didn't even know he was UFA That's why Harbaugh courted him so aggressively a 1 year contract offer is courting aggressively??? during the lockout; he understood that Alex Smith was the best option available in free agency. Turns out he was right.

I don't know what San Francisco games you were watching, but with a garbage WR corps like the 49ers had you mean 3 former top 10 picks in Davis, Crabtree and Edwards,maybe it's the QB he was still taking shots downfield to Vernon Davis with some regularity Davis had 1 play of over 40 yards the entire regular season. At the same time, is Tom Brady garbage because he rarely throws a pass that goes deeper than 8 yards downfield? Big difference, Brady has shown he can throw it downfield.This is the 1st year Smith has averaged 7 ypc.,7.1. Of course not. Why? Because both teams have inferior WR corps and ask those guys just catch the ball and take a couple more steps before going down.

Again, you can't seem to grasp my argument about Alex Smith: He's a Top 20 quarterback. Not Top 10, not even Top 15. He's Top 20. But the guys we have are probably not among the Top 25 quarterbacks in the NFL. Can you even admit that, or are you so closed off on the guy that you can't admit the obvious?

The only year that Alex Smith was undenably horrific was his rookie year. You must've missed his 3rd year with a sub 50 completion% and 57.2 rating. After that, he steadily improved despite being surrounded by constant chaos at offensive coordinator and with complimentary personnel. It's stunning to me that you're so blinded by hate for the Utah product that you can't admit to the mitigating factors in Alex Smith's case while looking at Kevin Kolb in ideal quarterback incubation conditions plays like a rank rookie despite being 28 years old.

No, Alex Smith is not a bust.That tells me alot. Haven't you argued that Levi was a bust because he hasn't played to the level expected of the #5 pick? He's lead the 49ers to a 21-16 record as a starter the past three seasons.Again skewing things for your argument,he's 2 games under .500 even after a 13-3 mark. He won a playoff game against the hottest team in the NFL. His last three seasons he's had quarterback ratings over 80.Wow, what an accomplishment for the former #1 pick. He cost his team $4 million last year. The one good thing about him.

I'll repeat what I've said dozens of times this year every time you've tilted on Alex Smith, and maybe you'll read it and actually respond to my argument: Alex Smith is a below league-average quarterback(this I agree with). That's what he's been the last three years. If you're still going to pound your fist over the player he was in 2005, then I have nothing else to say to you.

Instead, we're stuck with Kevin Kolb, minus our 2012 second-round pick and for about twice the salary cost, who is a below-average to bottom-five NFL quarterback with the hope that he can play like Matt Cassell with a full training camp.
I'd take Cassel over Smith.
Awesome.

Kolb hasn't been good, never said he has been. But he has shown as much, if not more, in 16 starts than Smith did in 5+ years. My complaint is you rip on Kolb but are/were willing to give Smith 7 years, make excuses for his performance, and tout his 13-3 record while ignoring the past. If Kolb lead the Cards to the playoffs next year will you still bash him? Or does he have to win a Super Bowl to be worth giving up the 51st pick in a bad draft plus DRC, who, if we are just judging by last year, which seems to be the case, did absolutely nothing.