Zach Martin or Calvin Pryor?

[Doc Cardinal]

Easy.

Calvin Pryor.

Otherwise we draft a second or third round safety that sucks.

 

[Chopper0080]

These ratings aren't in a vacuum. Martin is in the top 20 - almost everywhere. Someone with "more dominant size or more athletic" do not have the same or better ratings in more than a few instances. Can they have a better careers? Possibly. It's not guaranteed.

Can Martin turn out better than Lewan. Absolutely. He is going to be an excellent RT. They both may have great careers. Martin just has ability to swing inside as well if it would be a necessity. He's just a very versatile player. It's not a negative.

Where is Justin Pugh? Where is Bryan Bulaga? Are they both NFL starters? Yes they are, but neither of them are anything but average NFL players despite being first round picks. Can Martin be a starting RT in the NFL? Yes. But, like Pugh and Bulaga, he does not have the physical attributes to be anything more than that. Personally, I want more out of the 20th best player in the draft.

 

[Garthshort]

The more I think about it the more I'm convinced that you have to go back to basics. Football 101:
1. You win by protecting your QB and sacking the other team's QB.
2. That leans toward taking Martin. But I doubt that he'll be available, so that means........
3. You draft DEE FORD. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

 

[Mitch]

The more I think about it the more I'm convinced that you have to go back to basics. Football 101:
1. You win by protecting your QB and sacking the other team's QB.
2. That leans toward taking Martin. But I doubt that he'll be available, so that means........
3. You draft DEE FORD. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

I would be very happy with Dee Ford, Garth. Drinks would still be on me at Emily Shaw's!

 

[Finito]

Easy.

Calvin Pryor.

Otherwise we draft a second or third round safety that sucks.

Your crazy safety is very deep this year Buchannon, Loston, Dixon are all very very good. Matter a fact I would rather have Buchannon ahead of Clinton-Dix or Pryor. Safety is a position you can always find in the middle rounds. DJ Swearinger who was taken in the second round last year was every bit as good as Kenny Vacarro who was taken 17th overall


That tiny little safety we got last year in the 3rd round was pretty good.

 

[Chopper0080]

Your crazy safety is very deep this year Buchannon, Loston, Dixon are all very very good. Matter a fact I would rather have Buchannon ahead of Clinton-Dix or Pryor. Safety is a position you can always find in the middle rounds. DJ Swearinger who was taken in the second round last year was every bit as good as Kenny Vacarro who was taken 17th overall


That tiny little safety we got last year in the 3rd round was pretty good.

I really disagree with Swearinger being as good as Vaccaro last year. I do like Deone Bucannon, but I feel he is strictly a box safety and will struggle in situations where he has to play single high. His comp is probably TJ Ward or Donte Whitner.

 

[Garthshort]

Mitch, drinks are good, but the restaurant is now, The Inn at Pound Ridge. A rose by any other name......

 

[Jim Otis]

I suppose I have paid to much attention to this thread , I'm now wondering how Pryor gets past the Texans with the 1'st pick .

 

[Finito]

I really disagree with Swearinger being as good as Vaccaro last year. I do like Deone Bucannon, but I feel he is strictly a box safety and will struggle in situations where he has to play single high. His comp is probably TJ Ward or Donte Whitner.

You brought up Ward that reminds me there also Jimmie Ward in this draft another guy people are really high on.

There numbers were pretty similar with DJ coming on late. Vacarro slightly better getting a hand full more tackles but what I was trying to say one was drafted high the other was a second rounder. Give me the guy in the second round that can produce the same and I'll spend my first rounder on another position. If take either one of them I liked em both coming out

 

[juza76]

i m pretty sure pryor is not high on cards draft board
and zach martin too

 

[WildBB]

Where is Justin Pugh? Where is Bryan Bulaga? Are they both NFL starters? Yes they are, but neither of them are anything but average NFL players despite being first round picks. Can Martin be a starting RT in the NFL? Yes. But, like Pugh and Bulaga, he does not have the physical attributes to be anything more than that. Personally, I want more out of the 20th best player in the draft.

It's still a bit early on Pugh. We may be somewhat skewed by our pre-perceptions of certain players that don't meet some of the higher/better physical attributes that we seek at a particular position.

Therefor it skews the perception of say Matin that his upside isn't as high as say Richardson's who has many of the physical attributes that one would seek with a RT. The opposite might hold true Also, that the smaller physicalally sized player makes up for being shorter and lighter with other attributes and has the higher ceiling. Again, perception. Pugh is gonna be a solid starter, imo. So is Martin. They just have a mind set and determination that goes way beyond simple stats. They are highly motivated athletes. It's just as important or more important to most FO's.

That said the OL is judged so much of what the lineman does negatively. (jump offsides, give up a sack/pressure...ect.) it's harder to evalutate fairly. We expect them to open those gaping holes, and when they do often it's overlooked by something negative.

 

[overseascardfan]

I will continue to pimp my last and final mock as it fills every need left after FA.

Dee Ford - Will be able to spell Abraham and replace him next year.

Deone Buchanon - Most productive and best S in this class IMO.

Stanley Jean Baptiste - Biggest CB in draft. Can cover TE's and slot receivers this year and replace Cromartie next year. Matthieu is out all year folks and is at his best in the slot and in the box, that's where he returns.

Cameron Fleming - Big RT to provide 2 deep depth at OT.

Taylor Hart - Provides depth and possible replacement for DD in 2015.

WR Jeff Janis - Unlike most speed receivers this guy is a BIG receiver at 6'3 200+ lbs. Small school guy but he's got the skills to play in the NFL.

 

[Chopper0080]

i m pretty sure pryor is not high on cards draft board
and zach martin too

What makes you pretty sure?

 

[Chopper0080]

It's still a bit early on Pugh. We may be somewhat skewed by our pre-perceptions of certain players that don't meet some of the higher/better physical attributes that we seek at a particular position.

Therefor it skews the perception of say Matin that his upside isn't as high as say Richardson's who has many of the physical attributes that one would seek with a RT. The opposite might hold true Also, that the smaller physicalally sized player makes up for being shorter and lighter with other attributes and has the higher ceiling. Again, perception. Pugh is gonna be a solid starter, imo. So is Martin. They just have a mind set and determination that goes way beyond simple stats. They are highly motivated athletes. It's just as important or more important to most FO's.

That said the OL is judged so much of what the lineman does negatively. (jump offsides, give up a sack/pressure...ect.) it's harder to evalutate fairly. We expect them to open those gaping holes, and when they do often it's overlooked by something negative.

My point is that I want more than a solid starter when I am picking #20 in a draft. That is like drafting a pass rusher because you think he can get 8 sacks per season. It is not bad, but I want a higher ceiling in round 1.

 

[overseascardfan]

My point is that I want more than a solid starter when I am picking #20 in a draft. That is like drafting a pass rusher because you think he can get 8 sacks per season. It is not bad, but I want a higher ceiling in round 1.

I would gladly take an OLB who will get you 8 sacks every year at #20. Hell you would be lucky to get that in Top 10 pick, ask MIA & CLE who took Jordan & Mingo last year. I bet PIT would be satisfied if Jarvis Jones could give them that.

 

[Chopper0080]

I would gladly take an OLB who will get you 8 sacks every year at #20. Hell you would be lucky to get that in Top 10 pick, ask MIA & CLE who took Jordan & Mingo last year. I bet PIT would be satisfied if Jarvis Jones could give them that.

Jordan is not a DE which is what drafted by the Dolphins to be. that is stupid drafting by them and should not be put all on the player. You have to put players in positions to be successful.

Mingo was a speed rusher who was raw out of college. The Browns should have drafted him knowing he would need work.

Same goes for Jarvis Jones. People on this board recognized he was undersized and got sacks with tenacity as much as he did with athleticism.

Not shocking that these players didn't blow up in year one. I am willing to guess that Mingo and Jordan (if he plays OLB in a 3-4) are most likely to get over 8 sacks at some point in time.

Again, lets remember that last year was a poor draft and 3-4 conversion LBs are a crap shoot at times. In this draft class, Mingo and Jordan are probably coming off the board after Anthony Barr who may fall to #20 and could possibly go after Dee Ford.. Keep that in mind.

 

[WildBB]

My point is that I want more than a solid starter when I am picking #20 in a draft. That is like drafting a pass rusher because you think he can get 8 sacks per season. It is not bad, but I want a higher ceiling in round 1.

Fair enough. And my point is that our judge of ceilings can be skewed somewhat. That's why meeting face to face is so important. You gotta have that fire burning within. That want/need to excel. It's what separates so greatly. Not so much the 40 times , shuttles, height and weight. They help as indicators only. So many athletes kill it in the measurables and they never pan out.

I'm pretty certain Martin and Pryor both are the fire burning within type. And BOTH have measurables that are good enough to excell to a high degree.

 

[Catfish]

It's still a bit early on Pugh. We may be somewhat skewed by our pre-perceptions of certain players that don't meet some of the higher/better physical attributes that we seek at a particular position.

Therefor it skews the perception of say Matin that his upside isn't as high as say Richardson's who has many of the physical attributes that one would seek with a RT. The opposite might hold true Also, that the smaller physicalally sized player makes up for being shorter and lighter with other attributes and has the higher ceiling. Again, perception. Pugh is gonna be a solid starter, imo. So is Martin. They just have a mind set and determination that goes way beyond simple stats. They are highly motivated athletes. It's just as important or more important to most FO's.

That said the OL is judged so much of what the lineman does negatively. (jump offsides, give up a sack/pressure...ect.) it's harder to evalutate fairly. We expect them to open those gaping holes, and when they do often it's overlooked by something negative.

Chopper, your evaluation of the importance of 'want to', and of 'determination', is probably close to the most necessary trait which would be 'ability'. If a player is able, (and then has the 'want to' and the 'determination' to do all the things necessary to prepare), then this is the player that teams want. Good recognition on your part for this.

 

[juza76]

What makes you pretty sure?

I cant ignore the fact that keim point out the need to have a cover guy safety who is fast and can cover a good range of field and can especially match up well against tigh ends,a sort of ball hawk.
Pryor is a great safety but is just 5'11 and he is more a hard hitting safety.
Martin is a tweener and probably his natural position is playing guard.
I dont see them spending a precious first round pick for a guard again

 

[Jetstream Green]

I will continue to pimp my last and final mock as it fills every need left after FA.

Dee Ford - Will be able to spell Abraham and replace him next year.

Deone Buchanon - Most productive and best S in this class IMO.

Stanley Jean Baptiste - Biggest CB in draft. Can cover TE's and slot receivers this year and replace Cromartie next year. Matthieu is out all year folks and is at his best in the slot and in the box, that's where he returns.

Cameron Fleming - Big RT to provide 2 deep depth at OT.

Taylor Hart - Provides depth and possible replacement for DD in 2015.

WR Jeff Janis - Unlike most speed receivers this guy is a BIG receiver at 6'3 200+ lbs. Small school guy but he's got the skills to play in the NFL.

Janis is my steal of the draft, he is fast and can catch. I think he will be selected no later than the fourth round, be he in went to a small school or not

 

[Chopper0080]

I cant ignore the fact that keim point out the need to have a cover guy safety who is fast and can cover a good range of field and can especially match up well against tigh ends,a sort of ball hawk.
Pryor is a great safety but is just 5'11 and he is more a hard hitting safety.
Martin is a tweener and probably his natural position is playing guard.
I dont see them spending a precious first round pick for a guard again

???

Pryor played FS at Louisville and is one of the few single high safeties in the draft. He is shorter, but is a hybrid S more than a "hard hitting" one. Pyror's main issue is that he is over-aggressive and can play out of control at times, but those are correctable problems to have.

 

[Chopper0080]

Chopper, your evaluation of the importance of 'want to', and of 'determination', is probably close to the most necessary trait which would be 'ability'. If a player is able, (and then has the 'want to' and the 'determination' to do all the things necessary to prepare), then this is the player that teams want. Good recognition on your part for this.

You didn't quote me...?

 

[GuernseyCard]

Prefer Pryor over Martin at this point. And much prefer Martin, who I see as a plug-and-play right tackle, over some situational pass rusher like Dee Ford.

 

[juza76]

There is an interesting dialogue among some teams regarding the NFL Draft's top two safeties, Alabama's Ha Ha Clinton-Dix and Louisville's Calvin Pryor. Both are the only consensus first-round prospects at the position. Many fans and draft analysts believe that at least one of the safeties will go in the top 16 picks, and both could go in the top 20. However, we have spoken with sources from playoff teams who believe that both safeties could get to their picks.

The main reason that teams feel that Clinton-Dix and Pryor could make it into the 20s is because neither one is considered to be a rare athlete with elite speed. As one source said, "Neither one of these guys is an Earl Thomas-like athlete." That was proven at the Combine when they had solid, but unspectacular 40 times at 4.58 seconds. Clinton-Dix looked better in the field drills, but neither dominated the Combine.

 

[WildBB]

There is an interesting dialogue among some teams regarding the NFL Draft's top two safeties, Alabama's Ha Ha Clinton-Dix and Louisville's Calvin Pryor. Both are the only consensus first-round prospects at the position. Many fans and draft analysts believe that at least one of the safeties will go in the top 16 picks, and both could go in the top 20. However, we have spoken with sources from playoff teams who believe that both safeties could get to their picks.

The main reason that teams feel that Clinton-Dix and Pryor could make it into the 20s is because neither one is considered to be a rare athlete with elite speed. As one source said, "Neither one of these guys is an Earl Thomas-like athlete." That was proven at the Combine when they had solid, but unspectacular 40 times at 4.58 seconds. Clinton-Dix looked better in the field drills, but neither dominated the Combine.

Yeah that's off NFL network I believe.

I think Green Bay would take either one at 21 if they fell beyond us.

They need a safety as well.