thegrahamcrackr
Registered User
Well this is the reply I got:
Zarko
- Thread starter Goldfield
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Well this is the reply I got:
capologist
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I disagree. When you act with such reckless disregard for somebody else's safety, you are responsible for the outcome.
In another thread, I use the analogy of a drunk driver. Idiot #1 drives drunk, runs a red light, and gets pulled over and arrested. Idiot #2 drives drunk, runs a red light, and kills somebody who unfortunately happens to enter the intersection at the same time. The actions are the same, the outcomes are very different, and Idiot #2 is responsible for the unfortunate outcome in his case.
Was Danny Fortson even drinking?
Joe Mama
BC867
Long time Phoenician!
But he did . . . and he did. You push someone with two hands while he is in the air, you're asking for trouble.
The league can either discourage it or not. Apparently, they have spoken. The answer is "not".
Now it's up to the players to react to someone who's gone over the line.
I was just watching the NBA Shootaround on ESPN. They were all saying it was an adequate punishment, and it was the maximum allowed under the CBA. Bill Laimbeer even said, "it's not like he slammed him to the ground, and Cabarkapa shouldn't have been trying to dunk on him like that in a blowout win."
On a side note Stephen A. Smith should be taken out into the streets and beaten for being as obnoxious as he is on that show. Every time I tried to watch the ESPN NBA Shootaround I end up changing the channel because of him. If he was on the TNT show Charles Barkley would have killed him already.
Joe Mama
On a side note Stephen A. Smith should be taken out into the streets and beaten for being as obnoxious as he is on that show. Every time I tried to watch the ESPN NBA Shootaround I end up changing the channel because of him. If he was on the TNT show Charles Barkley would have killed him already.
Joe Mama
Chaz
observationist
That is not really a good analogy. If a drunk driver killes somone the do not get punished more for the DWI, but they may be charged with additional charges like manslaughter or 3rd degree murder.
Also I was talking about the specific instance of the NBA.
Fortson's play was completely wrong and stupid. I don't believe it was malicous.
Dammit, you people have me defending this jerk.
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See that's the thing. The guy is a jerk. Tom Gugliota would never do that. Zarko Carbarkapa would never do that.
However, you can't really punish a guy for being a mean person. Likewise, the fact that Zarko seems like one of the nicest guys in the world doesn't really matter either. The NBA sees it as an isolated incident, where Fortson was pissed off and pushed a guy. It doesn't even really matter that Zarko happened to be airborn at the time.
I personally think Marbury, Amare, Jahidi White, and Tom Gugliota should go over to Fortson's house, hold him down, hold his wrist out, and let David Stern bash both his wrists with a cro bar. It's not about the Dallas Mavericks; they probably won't mind too much that Fortson is out. However, Fortson would then feel what Zarko went through, the Mavericks would go on relatively unharmed, and justice would be served.
But it still wouldn't bring Zarko back.
jbeecham
ASFN Addict
Some good news:
I'm not sure if it is accurate, but this article says Zarko will be out 4-6 weeks and I've also seen the injury called a fracture rather than a break. It is also good that there was no joint damage so hopefully it won't affect him long term. I also like his work ethic.
I'm not sure if it is accurate, but this article says Zarko will be out 4-6 weeks and I've also seen the injury called a fracture rather than a break. It is also good that there was no joint damage so hopefully it won't affect him long term. I also like his work ethic.
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capologist
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Yes, that's exactly the point. He is criminally liable for manslaughter or murder (depending on the state) because he acted with reckless disregard for the public safety, and his reckless conduct directly and forseeably resulted in somebody's death. If you drive drunk and are lucky enough not to kill somebody, you don't get charged with manslaughter, but if you do kill somebody, you do get charged with manslaughter.
Another familiar example is Jayson Williams, who is on trial for manslaughter after recklessly fooling around with a shotgun and accidentally killing somebody. If he hadn't killed somebody, he wouldn't be on trial for manslaughter, but he did, so he is.
Same thing here. If Zarko hadn't been injured, then Fortson would not be responsible for the injury that didn't happen. But Zarko did get injured, so Fortson should be held responsible for the injury.
An important point is that this was not some kind of freak accident that couldn't have been prevented. What Fortson did was extremely dangerous, and serious injury was a reasonably forseeable outcome of such conduct. It's therefore his responsibility if that injury happens.
Cap, I can see your point, and part of me agrees with that. However since you are excluding this incident with the criminal justice system you seem to be forgetting all of the cases were something like this results in a slap on the wrist. The reason they are going after Williams so hard is that he tried to cover up the whole thing. If he had just reported it as an accident he might, might have been charged involuntary manslaughter or negligent homicide. They might not have even done that.
A three-game suspension might be considered the NBA equivalent punishment for something like involuntary manslaughter. Who knows? It's difficult to make a direct comparison.
I do not like the idea of Jerry Colangelo pursuing this in a court of law. It was a bad, reckless play, but I certainly didn't look to me like Fortson was trying to hurt Zarko. I mean what's next? Are we going to charge people for assault when they get in a fight? Legal action could certainly ruin the game of hockey (not that I would care much about that).
Even if Jerry Colangelo gets something done with the owners on this, what are the chances that the players association will sign off on it?
Joe Mama
A three-game suspension might be considered the NBA equivalent punishment for something like involuntary manslaughter. Who knows? It's difficult to make a direct comparison.
I do not like the idea of Jerry Colangelo pursuing this in a court of law. It was a bad, reckless play, but I certainly didn't look to me like Fortson was trying to hurt Zarko. I mean what's next? Are we going to charge people for assault when they get in a fight? Legal action could certainly ruin the game of hockey (not that I would care much about that).
Even if Jerry Colangelo gets something done with the owners on this, what are the chances that the players association will sign off on it?
Joe Mama
Krangodnzr
Captain of Team Conner
I can't remember who it was exactly, but a player HAS been taken to court for his actions on the ice in Hockey. I couldn't care any less about Hockey, but the precedent has been set.
But in that instance, the player was hit with a hockey stick, so the circumstances were quite different.
jbeecham
ASFN Addict
I think the players would sign off on something like Colangelo is proposing. It's really in thier best intrests because none of them should want to get seriously injured by reckless players like Fortson. I think Colangelo is only going after players that do something like Fortson did, like push a player in mid-air with both of your arms extended into his waist and then the mid-air player gets injured. That kind of thing should not happen in the NBA and when it does it should be punished visciously. Players that do this have no regard for the health of the other player.
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Sure, why not? A fight is a fight. So what if it is during the heat of a game. You don't think that if during a heated discussion over work related issues in a regular workplace that if someone came to blows that charges wouldn't be filed on top of probably being fired?
And I agree that the CBA is probably going to be JC's biggest hurdle.
If I'm remembering correctly that was a case where one player just smacked another player upside the head with his hockey stick. Like I said, I would have no problem with going after Fortson in a criminal or civil court if he had been intentionally trying to hurt Cabarkapa.
Joe Mama
jbeecham
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That's the thing.....I would guess that 4/5 times that that play happens the person who is pushed in mid-air does get hurt and is out a number of games. So why shouldn't it be looked at as intentionally trying to hurt someone. There probably hasn't even been a case where a guy was pushed like that and just got right back up and kept playing. I think it should be seen as intentionally trying to injure a player.
I really liked away Marc Cuban has approached this whole thing. He understands that Jerry Colangelo is upset, and that if the tables were turned he would likely act the same way. - Joe
Fortson punished for foul
By Dwain Price
Star-Telegram Staff Writer
DENVER - Shortly after being suspended by the NBA for three games without pay for a flagrant-2 foul against Phoenix Suns center Zarko Cabarkapa on Wednesday, Mavericks center Danny Fortson was walking through the team's Denver hotel talking on his cell phone.
Needless to say, Fortson was not in a good mood. And not just because of the $208,240 he's losing because of the three-game suspension -- $66,080 per game.
The seven-year veteran has a bone to pick with Suns owner Jerry Colangelo, who called Fortson a "thug" and added that "he's always been a thug" after the incident, which caused a fracture to Cabarkapa's right wrist.
"The owner made a big deal out of it," Fortson said Friday. "He really blew it out of proportion, as far as attacking my character.
"You might say he crossed the line, too. He crossed the line a little bit, just as much as I did. I've got people in my family, and they don't need to hear that."
Coach Don Nelson -- who has said "there is no place" in the game for the foul Fortson committed -- defended his player against Colangelo's comments.
"I don't think he knows Danny Fortson," Nelson said. "Danny Fortson is not a thug.
"He's a physical player. He makes poor decisions sometimes. He plays hard, but he's not a thug."
While several of the Mavs coaches were not pleased with Colangelo's words, owner Mark Cuban chose to take the high road.
"Maybe that wasn't appropriate," Cuban said of Colangelo's use of the word thug. "But I can understand because he was upset and he was standing up for his players.
"We're not going to make an issue out of it. If I was in the same position, I might have done the same thing."
Fortson said he's curious to see if the NBA takes any action against Colangelo for what Fortson deems an attack on his character.
In addition to Friday's game at Denver, Forston must sit out home games tonight against Minnesota and Tuesday against Washington. He would be available to play Thursday against the Los Angeles Lakers at American Airlines Center.
"It was a bad play, I admit that," Fortson said. "I really didn't mean to hurt the guy, but who's going to believe that?
"I'm just trying to play hard. At the same time when you play hard, you can make mistakes and look like you're trying to do something intentional. It's a bad deal, but I've committed fouls harder than that."
Fortson punished for foul
By Dwain Price
Star-Telegram Staff Writer
DENVER - Shortly after being suspended by the NBA for three games without pay for a flagrant-2 foul against Phoenix Suns center Zarko Cabarkapa on Wednesday, Mavericks center Danny Fortson was walking through the team's Denver hotel talking on his cell phone.
Needless to say, Fortson was not in a good mood. And not just because of the $208,240 he's losing because of the three-game suspension -- $66,080 per game.
The seven-year veteran has a bone to pick with Suns owner Jerry Colangelo, who called Fortson a "thug" and added that "he's always been a thug" after the incident, which caused a fracture to Cabarkapa's right wrist.
"The owner made a big deal out of it," Fortson said Friday. "He really blew it out of proportion, as far as attacking my character.
"You might say he crossed the line, too. He crossed the line a little bit, just as much as I did. I've got people in my family, and they don't need to hear that."
Coach Don Nelson -- who has said "there is no place" in the game for the foul Fortson committed -- defended his player against Colangelo's comments.
"I don't think he knows Danny Fortson," Nelson said. "Danny Fortson is not a thug.
"He's a physical player. He makes poor decisions sometimes. He plays hard, but he's not a thug."
While several of the Mavs coaches were not pleased with Colangelo's words, owner Mark Cuban chose to take the high road.
"Maybe that wasn't appropriate," Cuban said of Colangelo's use of the word thug. "But I can understand because he was upset and he was standing up for his players.
"We're not going to make an issue out of it. If I was in the same position, I might have done the same thing."
Fortson said he's curious to see if the NBA takes any action against Colangelo for what Fortson deems an attack on his character.
In addition to Friday's game at Denver, Forston must sit out home games tonight against Minnesota and Tuesday against Washington. He would be available to play Thursday against the Los Angeles Lakers at American Airlines Center.
"It was a bad play, I admit that," Fortson said. "I really didn't mean to hurt the guy, but who's going to believe that?
"I'm just trying to play hard. At the same time when you play hard, you can make mistakes and look like you're trying to do something intentional. It's a bad deal, but I've committed fouls harder than that."
George O'Brien
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I suspect that we could find worse done by Bill "Foul, what foul" Laimbeer in his Bad Boy Pistons days. But the fact that a rookie is doing what he was hired to do does not give a player the right to commit criminal assault even if it was due to negligence.
