15 thoughts - training camp

[Stout]

classic Stout

Classic CardNots, ignoring what I said later.

I don't know why it should be shocking that people tend to believe in their opinions until proven otherwise. As I teach my vets, opinions aren't facts and beliefs aren't facts, but we also have to have opinions and beliefs that help form our world view.

If you go around second guessing yourself all the time, what a sad life you would live. So my opinion is that it wasn't a good pick and I wouldn't be surprised if he isn't impactful. My opinion isn't fact, and I'd love to be proven wrong on Tip.

 

[Goldfield]

I'm optimistic about Ojulari and the pass rush. His stats compared very favorably compared to the other edge rushers taken before him in the 2023 draft.

1.Will Anderson, Pick #3: 45 tackles, 7 sacks
2.Tyree Wilson, Pick #7: 29 tackles, 3.5 sacks
3.Lukas Van Ness, Pick #13: 32 tackles, 4 sacks
4.Will McDonald IV, Pick #15: 14 tackles, 3 sacks
5.Myles Murphy, Pick #28: 20 tackles, 3 sacks
6.Nolan Smith, Pick #30: 18 tackles, 1 sack
7.Felix Uzomah, Pick #31: 14 tackles, .5 sacks
8.Derick Hall, Pick #37: 38 tackles, 0 sacks
9.Isaiah Foskey, Pick #40: 9 tackles, 0 sacks
10.BJ Ojulari, Pick #41: 40 tackles, 4 sacks

Ojuarli was the 10th edge taken and statistically, he was the 2nd most productive of those 10. He had trouble staying on the field for the start of the season, but so did everyone on this list besides Will Anderson.

I'm sure he will take a leap forward. He might not turn into a Micah Parsons, but I think he will outperform his draft position.

Interesting stats for a guy that didn’t have much training camp. Seems he did a little better than I remember. Thank you for sharing this

 

[Goldfield]

Hmm, yeah, Beej was so much better than we have thought. He's had tons of pressures, turnovers, TFLs and whatnot, just like Anderson. Right? Riiiight? lol

There's lies, damned lies, and statistics. Especially when you (the poster above us) cherry pick stats.

Not sure why Anderson is the standard here one was a top pick one was a second round pick. But I agree we need him to take a big step this year.

 

[CardNots]

Classic CardNots, ignoring what I said later.

I don't know why it should be shocking that people tend to believe in their opinions until proven otherwise. As I teach my vets, opinions aren't facts and beliefs aren't facts, but we also have to have opinions and beliefs that help form our world view.

If you go around second guessing yourself all the time, what a sad life you would live. So my opinion is that it wasn't a good pick and I wouldn't be surprised if he isn't impactful. My opinion isn't fact, and I'd love to be proven wrong on Tip.

Sounds like covering your bases avoiding any disappointment in a drafted player simply because you didn’t like the pick.

What is it you think i didn’t understand about your specific comment?

Are you Stouting me for poking a bit of fun at you, seriously?

 

[Krangodnzr]

I am not sure what rankings you mean, Krang? Last season the Cards’ offensive line was #6 in run block win rate (based on ESPN Analytics Index) and ranked 4th in rushing yards per game and 2nd in rushing yards per attempt. Another statistic metric, based on data from Pro Football Reference, ranks the Cards’ line as the 2nd best run blocking line, managing 3.2 yards before contact (defined as exceptional) last season, and the 11th best overall (which is defined as average to very good). Since then, Paris Johnson have been moved to his natural position, and Jonah Williams have been brought in after posting the best season of his career when he was moved the right tackle (career best in pressure rate, in 1-1 pressure rate, sack rate, and average time to pressure). Plus anyone playing LG cannot be worse than Elijah Wilkinson last season.

PFF, ESPN, and a host of other football based websites have all ranked the Cardinals OL as one of the worst in the league, which is crazy considering that the run game was pretty good last year.

I don’t see how those expectations are built on false understanding of rankings and what actually happened on the field? It seems to me that the two things adds up, and that it is fair to have positive expectations for this season.

See above.

No, I am not talking about a lot of games. I am talking about keeping the ship above water, should Murray go down. To me, Ridder is a big improvement from Clayton Tune.

Agreed. Ridder is obviously a well below average starter, but I can see him sticking as a QB2 for a long time. He hasn't won a ton of games, but he could hold down the offense for a few games.

Good call! Kyzir White is very important to the defense, so maybe those two could form a great tandem.

Potentially yes. Wilson is literally a buy low, win big kind of player, but he also could just be a sub package player.

For the Cardinals defense to really take off they need some of these young guys to be above average players quickly. Probably my favorite guy on defense right now is Garrett Williams. I was bullish on him as a prospect and he was probably the Cardinals best coverage player last year.

 

[Stout]

Sounds like covering your bases avoiding any disappointment in a drafted player simply because you didn’t like the pick.

What is it you think i didn’t understand about your specific comment?

Are you Stouting me for poking a bit of fun at you, seriously?

No, just having fun returning the "classic" comment

I said more on Tip later in the thread, that's all.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Classic CardNots, ignoring what I said later.

I don't know why it should be shocking that people tend to believe in their opinions until proven otherwise. As I teach my vets, opinions aren't facts and beliefs aren't facts, but we also have to have opinions and beliefs that help form our world view.

If you go around second guessing yourself all the time, what a sad life you would live. So my opinion is that it wasn't a good pick and I wouldn't be surprised if he isn't impactful. My opinion isn't fact, and I'd love to be proven wrong on Tip.

I like Reiman the player and see the fit.

I don't like the value with McBride already on the roster.

 

[Chopper0080]

Sounds like covering your bases avoiding any disappointment in a drafted player simply because you didn’t like the pick.

What is it you think i didn’t understand about your specific comment?

Are you Stouting me for poking a bit of fun at you, seriously?

Regarding the Tip pick, there are a couple factors that you have to consider.

1 - The Cardinals utilized 12 and 13 personnel 29.7% of snaps in 2023. 19.6% and 10.1% respectively. 12 pers was 15th most in the NFL. 13 pers was 1st. The top end for good offenses using 12 personnel was Green Bay at 31.6% and then KC at 27.7%. So, even if you see a max increase in multiple TE usage, is a 3rd round pick on a player and in a role that caps at about 38%-40% of offensive snaps worth it?

2 - TE obviously seems like a huge priority in this offense, and Higgins does not offer the full scope of what McBride can do. One could argue the Tip pick has more to do with insulating an important offensive component as much as it has to do with snaps.

Where I fall is 3rd round picks, like a lot of draft picks, are hit or miss. For me, I might have looked elsewhere but I also know the league is thirsty for TEs who can do everything. If you think Tip is a TE who can be that guy it isn't a huge risk.

 

[Garthshort]

Good news going into TC, imo, is that there wasn't any bad news in the past five weeks. A welcome change.

 

[Stout]

Good news going into TC, imo, is that there wasn't any bad news in the past five weeks. A welcome change.

Hell yeah!

 

[cardncubfan]

Regarding the Tip pick, there are a couple factors that you have to consider.

1 - The Cardinals utilized 12 and 13 personnel 29.7% of snaps in 2023. 19.6% and 10.1% respectively. 12 pers was 15th most in the NFL. 13 pers was 1st. The top end for good offenses using 12 personnel was Green Bay at 31.6% and then KC at 27.7%. So, even if you see a max increase in multiple TE usage, is a 3rd round pick on a player and in a role that caps at about 38%-40% of offensive snaps worth it?

2 - TE obviously seems like a huge priority in this offense, and Higgins does not offer the full scope of what McBride can do. One could argue the Tip pick has more to do with insulating an important offensive component as much as it has to do with snaps.

Where I fall is 3rd round picks, like a lot of draft picks, are hit or miss. For me, I might have looked elsewhere but I also know the league is thirsty for TEs who can do everything. If you think Tip is a TE who can be that guy it isn't a huge risk.

This is why I think they drafted him when they did. I think he has a lot more potential than how he was used in college.

 

[oaken1]

This is why I think they drafted him when they did. I think he has a lot more potential than how he was used in college.

Agree. From what I have seen and read he is a much better pass catcher than he gets credit for...and he has good speed for such a big boy...his blocking ability gives us the chance to disguise our plays.

 

[Stout]

This is why I think they drafted him when they did. I think he has a lot more potential than how he was used in college.

Monti definitely has to think so.

 

[slanidrac16]

It appears to me MO’s philosophy is to build strong units instead of one superstar and several JAG’s.
Great post Ghandi!

 

[Stout]

It appears to me MO’s philosophy is to build strong units instead of one superstar and several JAG’s.
Great post Ghandi!

That's a good start to build a contender. No NFL team will win a SB without those stars, though. There will come a time when he has to go get one, unless every draft pick hits big.

 

[Chopper0080]

This is why I think they drafted him when they did. I think he has a lot more potential than how he was used in college.

In terms of pass catching that is not a high bar. If Monti's argument is a two-way TE is critical to the offensive scheme and structure, those are tough to find, and Tip can ensure the offense has at least two of those guys on it for the next 2 to 4 years then I think it is fine as long as it works out.

It's kinda like when Keim drafted Brandon Williams in round 3. Guy didn't have a lot of experience as a CB but was reported as a top athlete. Keim took him in round 3 which was very questionable, but it would not have mattered if it worked out. It didn't and Keim looked like a donkey for taking him. If Tip fills the 2nd TE role for the next 4 years (getting around 35% snaps) and looks good doing so, no one will care that he was a 3rd round pick. If he can't, Monti will look like donkey for taking him there.

 

[Gandhi]

On Ojulari, no, it hasn't been proven. Unless you mean proven by flawed logic without included all the, you know, data. And, by the eye test, he played just as limited as his full stats indicate. There was absolutely nothing to make me go, "Whoa, there's a real spark of something there!" Again, I hope he does come good because it would really help the D. That would be future tense, though, because he hasn't shown it yet.

How can you eye test a player who never played a down in the NFL to one who has already sparked a bit in the NFL? If you want to go by type of players, I can buy that argument somewhat. You also can't say Reiman is capable of being a big factor in the passing game. He's a third round rookie without a training camp snap, let alone a real NFL game snap, to his name. He is not capable of anything as a pro...yet. Finally, I can buy the draft pick argument. Although I didn't think it was a good pick, the Cards certainly did.

I think you showed by far more in support of your Reiman take than your Ojulari take.

I respect your opinion, Stout!

 

[Gandhi]

PFF, ESPN, and a host of other football based websites have all ranked the Cardinals OL as one of the worst in the league, which is crazy considering that the run game was pretty good last year.

Ah, I think I interpreted your original post wrong. I think we fully agree.

For the Cardinals defense to really take off they need some of these young guys to be above average players quickly. Probably my favorite guy on defense right now is Garrett Williams. I was bullish on him as a prospect and he was probably the Cardinals best coverage player last year.

I think that you can delete "probably." I don't think there is much argument to be made for anyone else. Potentially Jalen Thompson, but no, I don't think he was better than Williams.

 

[Stout]

I respect your opinion, Stout!

Love your stuff, @Gandhi

 

[slanidrac16]

That's a good start to build a contender. No NFL team will win a SB without those stars, though. There will come a time when he has to go get one, unless every draft pick hits big.

Agree. We need to hit on one of those stars from the draft. A guy like Chris Jones or Aaron Donald didn’t come out of college as Hall of Famers.

 

[Stout]

Agree. We need to hit on one of those stars from the draft. A guy like Chris Jones or Aaron Donald didn’t come out of college as Hall of Famers.

We will also have to go big or go home on a FA or two eventually.

 

[MadCardDisease]

15 – Someone will be the training camp-darling among fans and media. Who? My shot in the dark is on either Dante Stills or Myles Murphy from the defensive line.

My pick for camp-darling is safety Dadrion Taylor-Demerson. I think he will be flying around during camp and make a couple of big plays that gets everyone fired up.

 

[Stout]

My pick for camp-darling is safety Dadrion Taylor-Demerson. I think he will be flying around during camp and make a couple of big plays that gets everyone fired up.

He seems to be the betting favorite. Even if he doesn't pan out, it was a shrewd pick at the time.

 

[Gandhi]

My pick for camp-darling is safety Dadrion Taylor-Demerson. I think he will be flying around during camp and make a couple of big plays that gets everyone fired up.

Great pick, Madcard!

I thought about taking DTD, but went in a different direction only because it is easier to stand out if there is no expectations for you. Okay, I don’t know if there are many expectations (from fans and media) for Dante Stills, but at least nobody counts on much from Murphy.

I think that DTD will have a great training camp. I think that he will play his way directly into being a big contributor, and even though I could also see good performances from especially Tip Reiman, I would not be surprised if after training camp we wonder why DTD was not the third-round pick instead of Reiman, Isaiah Adams, Tre Benson and Elijah Jones (not to say anything bad about them).

 

[gmabel830]

For this year's Lance Long Award (for training camp darling never to be heard from again), my money would be on one of the WRs - Palmer (sixth round pick) or Weaver (UDFA). Seems like WR is the position where people have come out of nowhere mostly often in past camps, and they both have some intriguing characteristics.