1st wave of Free Agency (most likely) done - now what?

[oaken1]

Barnwell's assessment vs that of Monti, Sears, Cards scouts and coaches...

Who to believe, who to trust...

I know who gets my vote.

Z. Allen (26)

17 games: Snap count: 911 - PD: 1 - Sacks: 5 - Tackles: 60 (27/33) - TFL: 8 - QB hits: 24 - Press: 27

J. Jones (27)

17 games: Snap count 739 - PD: 4 - Sacks: 4.5 - Tackles: 49 (29/20) - TFL: 10 - QB hits: 17 - Press: 22

Dude. You should know better than to produce facts when someone is being emotional.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Dude. You should know better than to produce facts when someone is being emotional.

So wait - you're saying that you agree that Justin Jones is the same as Zach Allen? I guess every other GM who chose not to sign Jones to a more expensive contract than Zach Allen was being emotional as well?

Some solid facts there.

 

[Mulli]

He created PECOTA

I don’t speak Spanish

 

[QuebecCard]

So wait - you're saying that you agree that Justin Jones is the same as Zach Allen? I guess every other GM who chose not to sign Jones to a more expensive contract than Zach Allen was being emotional as well?

Some solid facts there.

On the field facts that you choose to ignore... what a surprise!

Z. Allen (26)

17 games: Snap count: 911 - PD: 1 - Sacks: 5 - Tackles: 60 (27/33) - TFL: 8 - QB hits: 24 - Press: 27

J. Jones (27) - with 172 fewer snaps!

17 games: Snap count 739 - PD: 4 - Sacks: 4.5 - Tackles: 49 (29/20) - TFL: 10 - QB hits: 17 - Press: 22

The bottom line is that either Denver got snookered and overpaid, or Arizona got a bargain!

 

[ASUCHRIS]

On the field facts that you choose to ignore... what a surprise!

Z. Allen (26)

17 games: Snap count: 911 - PD: 1 - Sacks: 5 - Tackles: 60 (27/33) - TFL: 8 - QB hits: 24 - Press: 27

J. Jones (27)

17 games: Snap count 739 - PD: 4 - Sacks: 4.5 - Tackles: 49 (29/20) - TFL: 10 - QB hits: 17 - Press: 22

You repeating the same stat line doesn't mean they're equals as players! Zach Allen is being paid 3/46, Jones 10/30 with a bigger cap. Zach Allen is considered an above average player - Justin Jones is not.

 

[Krangodnzr]

You repeating the same stat line doesn't mean they're equals as players! Zach Allen is being paid 3/46, Jones 10/30 with a bigger cap. Zach Allen is considered an above average player - Justin Jones is not.

The logic here is just crazy!!!!

So let's get this straight. Zach Allen is better because he was paid more?

 

[ASUCHRIS]

The logic here is just crazy!!!!

So let's get this straight. Zach Allen is better because he was paid more?

One way you can tell the relative value of players is through free agency, yes. Teams are more prone to paying more money for better players. Crazy, I know.

Zach Allen was graded out on PFF as a 71.9 overall - Justin Jones 49.3. Now in the open market, one was given 15m per year, and the other around 10. I guess the Broncos owners were just being emotional.

Do you as well believe Justin Jones is the equal of Zach Allen?

 

[ASUCHRIS]

2023 FA DL Rankings:

2023 NFL Free Agent Rankings: Interior defensive linemen | NFL News, Rankings and Statistics | PFF

Javon Hargrave and Dalvin Tomlinson headline PFF's list of the top available free-agent interior defensive linemen ahead of 2023 NFL free agency.

www.pff.com

5. DI ZACH ALLEN​

Contract projection: Available in PFF's free agency rankings

Allen has taken advantage of mentorship from future first-ballot Hall of Famer J.J. Watt early in his career, and he took a big leap in 2022. Allen earned his first run-defense grade above 60.0 and first pass-rush grade above 70.0, with a career-best 35 quarterback pressures and 8.3% pressure rate.

Allen could be a big benefactor of the pending market explosion among interior defenders, though he will land in the second or third tier of the position group.

2024 FA DL Rankings:

2024 NFL Free Agency Rankings: Interior defensive linemen | NFL News, Rankings and Statistics | PFF

Chris Jones is the top-ranked free-agent interior defender in PFF's 2024 NFL free agency rankings.

www.pff.com

Justin Jones - unlisted

Same guys though!

 

[Krangodnzr]

One way you can tell the relative value of players is through free agency, yes. Teams are more prone to paying more money for better players. Crazy, I know.

This isn't really true. Teams always overpay guys. This means you're trusting a Broncos team that just hired Vance Joseph and also got rid of Wilson after trading so much for him.

Zach Allen was graded out on PFF as a 71.9 overall - Justin Jones 49.3. Now in the open market, one was given 15m per year, and the other around 10. I guess the Broncos owners were just being emotional.

I learned awhile ago not to trust PFF...

Do you as well believe Justin Jones is the equal of Zach Allen?

I think they are fairly close. NFL starting caliber DL and neither are stars.

 

[kerouac9]

The logic here is just crazy!!!!

So let's get this straight. Zach Allen is better because he was paid more?

It's crazy that you don't think that's an indicator of how The Market views both players. That said, here's a direct comparison.

Allen has 4.5 more sacks in 23 fewer games. 30 more QB hits, 16 more passes defensed. 27 more pressures.

 

[QuebecCard]

You repeating the same stat line doesn't mean they're equals as players! Zach Allen is being paid 3/46, Jones 10/30 with a bigger cap. Zach Allen is considered an above average player - Justin Jones is not.

Hilarious!!!

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Hilarious!!!

Thank you for your valuable commentary!

 

[QuebecCard]

Thank you for your valuable commentary!

No, no - thank you for the convoluted entertainment.

 

[Krangodnzr]

It's crazy that you don't think that's an indicator of how The Market views both players. That said, here's a direct comparison.

Allen has 4.5 more sacks in 23 fewer games. 30 more QB hits, 16 more passes defensed. 27 more pressures.

So now we're moving the goal posts? Not just looking at what happened last year?

 

[ASUCHRIS]

This isn't really true. Teams always overpay guys. This means you're trusting a Broncos team that just hired Vance Joseph and also got rid of Wilson after trading so much for him.

I learned awhile ago not to trust PFF...

I think they are fairly close. NFL starting caliber DL and neither are stars.

You don't have to trust PFF! Nearly every FA ranking of 2023 had Zach Allen as a top 10 interior DL player, many top 5. Not one of them had Justin Jones in their top 10. Do you think they're all biased like PFF? Emotional?

 

[QuebecCard]

So now we're moving the goal posts? Not just looking at what happened last year?

Allen had more tackles in High School. True, true, I tell you.

Let's not forget to factor that in.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Allen had more tackles in High School. True, true, I tell you.

Let's not forget to factor that in.

Comparing NFL stats to high school. Serious football guy here.

 

[QuebecCard]

You don't have to trust PFF! Nearly every FA ranking of 2023 had Zach Allen as a top 10 interior DL player, many top 5. Not one of them had Justin Jones in their top 10. Do you think they're all biased like PFF? Emotional?

2023 - THE SEASON THAT ACTUALLY MATTERS!

Z. Allen (26)

17 games: Snap count: 911 - PD: 1 - Sacks: 5 - Tackles: 60 (27/33) - TFL: 8 - QB hits: 24 - Press: 27

J. Jones (27) - with 172 fewer snaps!

17 games: Snap count 739 - PD: 4 - Sacks: 4.5 - Tackles: 49 (29/20) - TFL: 10 - QB hits: 17 - Press: 22

The bottom line is that either Denver got snookered and overpaid, or Arizona got a bargain!

 

[QuebecCard]

Comparing NFL stats to high school. Serious football guy here.

Something we share.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

2023 - THE SEASON THAT ACTUALLY MATTERS!

No, one season isn't the only factor used in assigning value, actually. It's about an entire body of work.

Z. Allen (26)

17 games: Snap count: 911 - PD: 1 - Sacks: 5 - Tackles: 60 (27/33) - TFL: 8 - QB hits: 24 - Press: 27

J. Jones (27) - with 172 fewer snaps!

17 games: Snap count 739 - PD: 4 - Sacks: 4.5 - Tackles: 49 (29/20) - TFL: 10 - QB hits: 17 - Press: 22

The bottom line is that either Denver got snookered and overpaid, or Arizona got a bargain!

You're just going to continue posting the same #'s huh? If you're only argument is that they are equal because Jones had similar stats last year, there isn't much to discuss. Nothing other than you limited stat set indicates they are equals.

 

[kerouac9]

So now we're moving the goal posts? Not just looking at what happened last year?

I'm barely following this because this conversation is so deranged. Here's the comparison of just 2023.

Zach Allen had more pressures, more Hurries, more sacks, more tackles, and fewer passes defensed. He also played 180 more snaps.

You can say on a cost-adjusted basis they're closer, but if you remove cost from the conversation this is pretty silly. I know context matters to you, so consider that Justin Hones also got the benefit of Montez Sweat opening things up for him for half the year.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

So, once? Let's put it this way, how many times has it worked against the Cards? Paying top price for top talent didn't really work for Keim. We never got those year in and year out playoff runs. Time to try a different tactic. I am not arguing with you @Ouchie-Z-Clown and thanks for answering. Just in general making the point we should try a different strategy and see if that works.

Those were just off top of head. Honestly we haven’t had many top signings. So the numbers, percentagewise, might skew in a direction you don’t expect.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Those were just off top of head. Honestly we haven’t had many top signings. So the numbers, percentagewise, might skew in a direction you don’t expect.

Also, just because we had a GM who threw good money after bad in FA, that doesn’t mean the same thing would happen with a different GM. The hope is Monti is BETTER than Keim, right? Just eliminating an avenue to make real progress because historically this franchise has been relatively inept in FA is a loser mentality. If we have good management, they should be able to identify impact players not ONLY in the draft, but in FA and trades. Even more, we’ve yet to even see if this Front Office CAN identify impact players in the draft yet, so to hold tight only to that avenue of improvement seems silly/premature to me.

 

[QuebecCard]

No, one season isn't the only factor used in assigning value, actually. It's about an entire body of work.

You're just going to continue posting the same #'s huh? If you're only argument is that they are equal because Jones had similar stats last year, there isn't much to discuss. Nothing other than you limited stat set indicates they are equals.

Yes, you're right; the statistics from 2023 clearly indicate that your conclusions are unsupported by on-the-field facts.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Yes, you're right; the statistics from 2023 clearly indicate that your conclusions are unsupported by on-the-field facts.

As K9 pointed out, Zach Allen had more pressures, more Hurries, more sacks, more tackles, and fewer passes defensed. He also played 180 more snaps. Even in your incredibly limited sample size, you're wrong. If you look at their historical play, there is obvious reason that Allen is viewed as the better player. Allen is a decent starter - Jones is a rotation player. These are not the same things.