2005 Draft: Names to watch

[kerouac9]

At this point I like LeVar Woods better than either Thompson or Fisher.

We'll see what happens, but go ahead and pencil in (with a Sharpie) Dansby and Thompson on the outside.

You're probably on an island with that one. LeVar Woods is no better than a Special Teamer. He's a good special teamer, but you don't want him starting.

Are you saying Dansby and Thompson as starters on the outside?! Only if the Cards want to lose 10 games instead of win. Honesly, I expect the Hayes (present Sam starter) and Fisher to battle for the starting job, with Hayes edging Fisher out barely. Thompson will win the Wendy job, but Dansby will replace him on passing downs. McKinnon will remain in the middle probably with what's-his-name (great offseason move, Rod) behind him.

If our 2-gap DTs can be effective at keeping the middle moderately clean, I wouldn't be surprised at all to see Hayes move inside by mid-season, with Fisher moving up to start on the strong side, and Dansby getting 70% of the snaps on the weakside.

 

[SECTION 11]

Are you saying Dansby and Thompson as starters on the outside?! Only if the Cards want to lose 10 games instead of win. Honesly, I expect the Hayes (present Sam starter) and Fisher to battle for the starting job, with Hayes edging Fisher out barely. Thompson will win the Wendy job, but Dansby will replace him on passing downs. McKinnon will remain in the middle probably with what's-his-name (great offseason move, Rod) behind him.

Here's how the stand right now;

will: Thompson, Woods/Young
mike: McKinnon, Darling
sam: Hayes, Fisher, Dansby


Next year, count on Hayes moving inside. That leaves Dansby and Fisher to fight it out for the sam spot. I'll take a wager on who wins that battle.

 

[kerouac9]

Next year, count on Hayes moving inside. That leaves Dansby and Fisher to fight it out for the sam spot. I'll take a wager on who wins that battle.

I don't know. Levar was injured all preseason and still beat out Dansby for the job, according to your depth chart.

I'll take a wager on whether or not Dansby can beat out Woods/Young for the backup job on the weak side.

 

[PortlandCardFan]

You should meet his siblings, PlayStation, Nintendo, and sister Genesis.

You forgot his half-brother X-box!!

 

[kerouac9]

You forgot his half-brother X-box!!

No, that's what he named his kid! Actually, they were triplets: Gamecube, X-Box, and PlayStation II (man, Atari loves his brother).

 

[SECTION 11]

I don't know. Levar was injured all preseason and still beat out Dansby for the job, according to your depth chart.

I'll take a wager on whether or not Dansby can beat out Woods/Young for the backup job on the weak side.

My depth chart? That's MJ's depth chart (the one with Dansby on the strong side, for clarity).


I'm pulling for Fisher as much as anyone, but counting on him (or penciling him in, as it were) to be a starter doesn't quite make a lot of sense...

Pro Career: Arizona’s second-round selection (49th overall) in 2002 NFLDraft … endured injury-plagued rookie season to appear in just seven games and collect 20 tackles (21 solos), 1 tackle for loss, 1 pass deflection, and 4 special teams tackles … first extended action from scrimmage resulted in four solo tackles in 24–13 win at Seattle (Sept. 15) … underwent surgical procedure on right knee to remove loose cartilage on Sept. 20 … inactive for next three games … returned to action with three tackles in 9–6 overtime win vs. Dallas (Oct. 20), then again inactive with knee problem at San Francisco (Oct. 27) … registered 14 combined tackles over span of next four games, including five stops at Philadelphia (Nov. 17) and three stops and a tackle for loss from scrimmage and two tackles on special teams vs. Oakland (Nov. 24) … troublesome knee flared up once more and was inactive for three games, then placed on injured reserve list Dec. 18 for duration of season.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

I really don't want to get involved in this one-sided debate again. It's simply a matter of Thompson's average production and talent vs. Fisher's good potential and non-existent production. Considering Fisher's running around on two chronically bad knees, right now I'll take Ray's average production. We'll see what Denny says though.

EDIT - We will draft Marion Barber next year. At that point, the media will begin to question Denny's obsession with Minnesota players and somewhere Vikesfan will accuse them of bigotry. Also we should be looking at TEs for next year's draft. Jones isn't a Green player and we haven't seen anything from Diamond or Banks yet.

 

[kerouac9]

Fisher's... non-existent production.

Levar had 50 takles 1 sack (for 9 yards) a forced fumble, a recovered one, and two passes defensed in 16 (all healthy) games last season despite getting pulled from the field on passing downs in favor of Ronald McKinnon.

Raynoch had 54 tackles, 3 sacks (for 12 yards), one forced fumble, one recovered, and two passes defensed in 12 games while also spending three downs on the field and being designated "playmaker" by the previous regime. He's had four years to produce in that "playmaker" role.

I agree with S11 that we shouldn't be pencilling in Fisher as a starter when Gerald Hayes is around to play the Sam spot, but Raynoch has had more opportunity to excel, and has failed to do so. Fisher has proved his value on the field in limited opportunities. I think he's earned the chance not to be written off.

Raynoch, on the other hand, nearly lost his job before the OTA's even began, and has never been the playmaker that the Cards were expecting.

 

[kerouac9]

Also we should be looking at TEs for next year's draft. Jones isn't a Green player and we haven't seen anything from Diamond or Banks yet.

I had tight ends on my list!

Here's what The War Room has to say about Marion Barber:

10. Marion Barber III, 5-11/207, Minnesota. Quick, powerful and agile. Breaks tackles and gets the tough extra yardage. Lacks great hands, however, and needs to work on ball security as a junior.

Sounds kind of like a Denny Green back, except about the hands. Does Denny have a track record of drafting Minny players?

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

Levar had 50 takles 1 sack (for 9 yards) a forced fumble, a recovered one, and two passes defensed in 16 (all healthy) games last season despite getting pulled from the field on passing downs in favor of Ronald McKinnon.

Raynoch had 54 tackles, 3 sacks (for 12 yards), one forced fumble, one recovered, and two passes defensed in 12 games while also spending three downs on the field and being designated "playmaker" by the previous regime. He's had four years to produce in that "playmaker" role.

It says right there that Ray outproduced Fisher with less opportunities, I.E. 4 less games. I know how you love stats so much, so we can also look at the 109 tackles he had in 2002 as some solid evidence he's not the piece of garbage you think he is. He ain't Keith Bulluck, but he's certainly better than the guy he replaced (can't remember if it was Walz, Sanyika, or Rutledge) and I really don't see any better options right now. His "bloated contract" is $2 million per season, which not cap-busting and is on par for a LB who has averaged nearly 7 tackles a game for the last two years. But keep going with the "it's the coaches fault he's not good" routine to explain Fisher's mediocre play, it's only the call sign of every underachieving athlete at every level.

I agree with S11 that we shouldn't be pencilling in Fisher as a starter when Gerald Hayes is around to play the Sam spot, but Raynoch has had more opportunity to excel, and has failed to do so. Fisher has proved his value on the field in limited opportunities. I think he's earned the chance not to be written off.

Raynoch, on the other hand, nearly lost his job before the OTA's even began, and has never been the playmaker that the Cards were expecting.

Ray didn't almost lose his job, he actually has been the starter at WLB since Denny became the HC. He wanted to be released because the front office took away his signing bonus as a result of his suspension. Green interpreted this as Thompson becoming a locker room cancer and sat him down and hashed it out. The issue was resolved and what do you know, Ray's the starter going into training camp.

PS - We'll see this year if Ray is the potential All-Pro some think he is or the scrub you think he is. I think he's somewhere in between. I'm officially done with this debate, let it be rehashed if necessary in September.

 

[Russ Smith]

I really don't want to get involved in this one-sided debate again. It's simply a matter of Thompson's average production and talent vs. Fisher's good potential and non-existent production. Considering Fisher's running around on two chronically bad knees, right now I'll take Ray's average production. We'll see what Denny says though.

EDIT - We will draft Marion Barber next year. At that point, the media will begin to question Denny's obsession with Minnesota players and somewhere Vikesfan will accuse them of bigotry. Also we should be looking at TEs for next year's draft. Jones isn't a Green player and we haven't seen anything from Diamond or Banks yet.

Hey if we're going to have a LB named Wendy we may as well have a RB named Marion

I saw Barber once last year and was really impressed, isn't his dad an ex NFL RB too?

 

[Carpy]

Mmm-hmmm. I'm guessing that we'll see CB-RB-MLB-DT (maybe even in that order) through the first four rounds of the draft next season. They're easily the thinnest and weakest positions on the team. Easily.

Sadly, next year seems to have a really specactular crop of OLBs. Too bad we've drafted first-dayers at that position for it seems like the past decade.

If you are looking at CB you could certainly do worse than look at Andre Dyson. With our cap situation, we are really going to struggle to re-sign him next year and he has really improved as a player over his time in Tennessee.

I was somewhat surprised the Cards didn't make some sort of a run at Kearse this off-season. Was there much talk about it happening?

 

[earthsci]

I was somewhat surprised the Cards didn't make some sort of a run at Kearse this off-season. Was there much talk about it happening?

There was talk. The accepted notion is that the Cardinals are going to make "cap wise" moves. That's why we ended up with Burt Berry. It was a wise move, especially if we end up extending Anquan this year.

 

[Russ Smith]

There was talk. The accepted notion is that the Cardinals are going to make "cap wise" moves. That's why we ended up with Burt Berry. It was a wise move, especially if we end up extending Anquan this year.

I still suspect we overpaid for Berry but I am completely in agreement with signing him. I'm of course not close enough to the situation to know if it took that much to get him out of Denver.

 

[kerouac9]

If you are looking at CB you could certainly do worse than look at Andre Dyson. With our cap situation, we are really going to struggle to re-sign him next year and he has really improved as a player over his time in Tennessee.

I was somewhat surprised the Cards didn't make some sort of a run at Kearse this off-season. Was there much talk about it happening?

You absolutely can do worse than Dyson. I think part of the reason that at least I wasn't interested in FA corners is that we have one already on the roster that's taking up vast amounts of salary cap space in Duane Starks. If this team is going to succeed in the long-term, you have to build from within, especially at premire positions like cornerback (as well as RB, QB, LOT, DE, and #1 WR). If players at those positions are available in free agency, there's usually a reason that they're out there. I think that Duane is the best player at his position on our roster, but he's approaching 30. We need to find a replacement now, and we haven't drafted a cornerback in years.

Kind of the same thing with Kearse. This team probably isn't going to contend this season. Kearse is an injury case, and that will get worse on a team that is only going to post single-digit wins, because he wouldn't be playing for anything but a paycheck. How can a coach make the case that you're needed out there when you're 2-7? I didn't want him because of the injury factor that will only get worse over time, and that he's not really needed this season to "get over the hump." He went into a great position in Philly.

Welcome to the board. Tennesee is nothing but a classy organization with great fans and one of the toughest houses to win in in the NFL. What do you think about how the front office is handling the Eddie George situation? Is Chris Brown fever catching on around the powder-blue nation?

 

[Russ Smith]

You absolutely can do worse than Dyson. I think part of the reason that at least I wasn't interested in FA corners is that we have one already on the roster that's taking up vast amounts of salary cap space in Duane Starks. If this team is going to succeed in the long-term, you have to build from within, especially at premire positions like cornerback (as well as RB, QB, LOT, DE, and #1 WR). If players at those positions are available in free agency, there's usually a reason that they're out there. I think that Duane is the best player at his position on our roster, but he's approaching 30. We need to find a replacement now, and we haven't drafted a cornerback in years.

?

K9 I've been with you for weeks on most of your takes but me thinks this is a bit of circular reasoning and hindsight on Starks.

Duane missed 2 games in 4 years in Baltimore, started on one of the best defenses in history, and was a very good (but not elite) CB. he was available for one reason, the Ravens were in cap hell and had to make decisions and they decided that Duane wasn't one of their "core" players.

They certainly didn't say I think this guy is going to have all sorts of injuries in the near future.

 

[joeshmo]

I think Macklin and Starks prove to be good #1 and #2 CB this year. Macklin just started to come into his own at the end of last year, and I have a gut feeling that Starks will stay healthy for the remainder of his days here. But Macklin and Starks are the only CB's under contract next year, so since by the end of the year I dont think we will need starters we still need to fill the depth chart so I wouldnt be surprised to see us picking 2 bigger type CB's somewhere in rounds 2-5, but just not in round 1 unless Rolle or Jackson fall to us in the projected 10-20 range.

Plus I wouldnt be surprised if we pick a SS very early as the only safety under contract next year is Jackson.

Also maybe even a TE early if we cant resign Freddie Jones whos contracts ends at the end of this year.

 

[kerouac9]

K9 I've been with you for weeks on most of your takes but me thinks this is a bit of circular reasoning and hindsight on Starks.

Duane missed 2 games in 4 years in Baltimore, started on one of the best defenses in history, and was a very good (but not elite) CB. he was available for one reason, the Ravens were in cap hell and had to make decisions and they decided that Duane wasn't one of their "core" players.

They certainly didn't say I think this guy is going to have all sorts of injuries in the near future.

Maybe I wasn't clear. I'm a big fan of Duane's, and am not one of the ones that think he should be cut. What I'm not in favor of, though, is having two free-agent cornerbacks with high-seven-digit signing bonuses on the roster at the same time. I personally don't think that Andre Dyson is all that much different a cornerback than Starks. Both are very good #2s next to a franchise-caliber #1 (Starks had McAllister, Dyson has Rolle), but both want/wanted #1 cornerback money. And Dyson will get it. Duane was also let go because the Ravens were effectively banking that money, because McAllister's contract was up the next year. This will be his second season playing under the "Franchise" tag.

I just don't want the Cards to be the one giving it to him.

I agree that no one could have predicting Starks's injury problems the last two seasons, and I think that the deal was the right one at the time. Frankly, I think that it's a good deal now, considering that he's still the best corner on the roster, and no one's going to take that position any time soon. I don't like the idea of sending young corners out their first season and telling them to shut down or contain the Randy Mosses of the league. Get a guy #1 next year, and let him play in the nickel as a rookie. Then move him into the #2 job, and finally, when Duane's contract is up, move him into the #1 spot.

That's just my philosophy. Cap space is too precious to burn on two aging corners at $5 million-plus salaries.

 

[spanky1]

Mmm-hmmm. I'm guessing that we'll see CB-RB-MLB-DT (maybe even in that order) through the first four rounds of the draft next season. They're easily the thinnest and weakest positions on the team. Easily.

Sadly, next year seems to have a really specactular crop of OLBs. Too bad we've drafted first-dayers at that position for it seems like the past decade.

k9,

CB-RB......I agree. Regarding a MLB, my guess is that Hayes moves there as soon as Dansby can get up to speed (I'm assuming that Fisher is a candidate for Injury Reserve for this year anyway). I agree as well that DT is still going to be a critical need even if Bryant and Dockett reach their full potential this year. We are woefully short of depth at this position.......indeed my guess is that Kolodziej is strictly camp fodder leaving us with Davis and King as our depth chart at DT. This is scary.

 

[spanky1]

I think Macklin and Starks prove to be good #1 and #2 CB this year. Macklin just started to come into his own at the end of last year, and I have a gut feeling that Starks will stay healthy for the remainder of his days here. But Macklin and Starks are the only CB's under contract next year, so since by the end of the year I dont think we will need starters we still need to fill the depth chart so I wouldnt be surprised to see us picking 2 bigger type CB's somewhere in rounds 2-5, but just not in round 1 unless Rolle or Jackson fall to us in the projected 10-20 range.

Plus I wouldnt be surprised if we pick a SS very early as the only safety under contract next year is Jackson.

Also maybe even a TE early if we cant resign Freddie Jones whos contracts ends at the end of this year.

We have a potential TE in the wings with Lorenzo Diamond. If SS Wilson proves to be no better this year then yes, he'll be gone. If he hits his stride, maybe not (unless he wants a whole lot of money). Watch Adrian Mayes in terms of his development. He could very well turn out to be a heck of a find. This will determine what ultimately happens to Wilson.

I'm also high on Jason Goss at CB........and despite what everyone says, Hill has a role to play on this team......but I also like Macklin. He could become as key an FA signing as Berry was.

 

[kerouac9]

Regarding a MLB, my guess is that Hayes moves there...

I keep hearing this, but only on this board. Does anyone anywhere have anything that suggests that Gerald Hayes can play NFL MLB, or would be more effective there than he can be at OLB?

I'm not saying it's not possible, but to think that it's likely seems to be surrenduring to the echo chamber that is ASFN.

Just on pure measurables:

Gerald Hayes is 6'1", 238 (all according to NFL.com)
Ray Lewis is 6'1", 245
Brian Urlacher is 6'4", 254 (wow--again: wow)
Derek Smith (SF) is 6'2", 245
Robert Thomas (STL) is 6'1", 229 (two-gap system with giant DTs)
Mark Simoneau (PHI) is 6'0", 234 (really small for a MLB)
Mike Peterson (JAC) is 6'1", 230 (playing behind Marcus Stroud and John Henderson)
Dat Nguyen (DAL) is 5'11", 243
Dan Morgan (CAR) is 6'2", 245
Kawika Mitchell (KC) is 6'0", 253
Mike Maslowski (KC) is 6'1", 243
Napoleon Harris (OAK) is 6'2", 255
London Fletcher (BUF) is 5'10", 245
Rocky Calmus is 6'3", 238
E.J. Henderson is 6'1", 245

It looks like Gerald would have to gain 5-10 lbs to make the move, at the very least.

 

[ajcardfan]

I keep hearing this, but only on this board. Does anyone anywhere have anything that suggests that Gerald Hayes can play NFL MLB, or would be more effective there than he can be at OLB?

I'm not saying it's not possible, but to think that it's likely seems to be surrenduring to the echo chamber that is ASFN.

Just on pure measurables:

Gerald Hayes is 6'1", 238 (all according to NFL.com)
Ray Lewis is 6'1", 245
Brian Urlacher is 6'4", 254 (wow--again: wow)
Derek Smith (SF) is 6'2", 245
Robert Thomas (STL) is 6'1", 229 (two-gap system with giant DTs)
Mark Simoneau (PHI) is 6'0", 234 (really small for a MLB)
Mike Peterson (JAC) is 6'1", 230 (playing behind Marcus Stroud and John Henderson)
Dat Nguyen (DAL) is 5'11", 243
Dan Morgan (CAR) is 6'2", 245
Kawika Mitchell (KC) is 6'0", 253
Mike Maslowski (KC) is 6'1", 243
Napoleon Harris (OAK) is 6'2", 255
London Fletcher (BUF) is 5'10", 245
Rocky Calmus is 6'3", 238
E.J. Henderson is 6'1", 245

It looks like Gerald would have to gain 5-10 lbs to make the move, at the very least.

He was a terrific MLB in college. Most players who are good at a position in the pros were also good at that position in college. (Duh!) He is not quite as heavy as McKinnon, but I see no real difference in size between the two. I thought Hayes was our best pick last year (I thought Boldin was a close second). I believe he's the type of football player who is smart enough and intense enough to produce inside or out.

 

[spanky1]

k9,

Thank you for the run down on other teams MLB's size wise. In a perfect world an MLB would have McKinnon's heart, Urlacher's size and Lewis' nastiness......Hayes at 6'1" is in the ballpark height wise but yes at 238 he's a tiny bit "undersized". I think getting up to 245 would be easy from 238. Otherwise, he is fundamentally sound. He has been talked about for a year or so as a strong candidate to replace McKinnon eventually.

 

[kerouac9]

He was a terrific MLB in college. Most players who are good at a position in the pros were also good at that position in college. (Duh!) He is not quite as heavy as McKinnon, but I see no real difference in size between the two.

That's fine, but I also think that it follows that not everyone who was good at his position in college is good at that position in the NFL, as well.

Personally, I think that Ronald McKinnon is in the bottom third of starting middle linebackers in the NFL. Saying that he's only a little smaller than Ronnie Mac doesn't do much to justify that to me, since Mac Dawg has his own problems disengaging from blockers in run support.

I was just wondering if anyone outside the site has mentioned Hayes moving inside, or if this is a thought that has bounced around the board so often in the past 12 months that it's become a probability. I'm thinking that it's the latter.

 

[Russ Smith]

Maybe I wasn't clear. I'm a big fan of Duane's, and am not one of the ones that think he should be cut. What I'm not in favor of, though, is having two free-agent cornerbacks with high-seven-digit signing bonuses on the roster at the same time. I personally don't think that Andre Dyson is all that much different a cornerback than Starks. Both are very good #2s next to a franchise-caliber #1 (Starks had McAllister, Dyson has Rolle), but both want/wanted #1 cornerback money. And Dyson will get it. Duane was also let go because the Ravens were effectively banking that money, because McAllister's contract was up the next year. This will be his second season playing under the "Franchise" tag.
.

My bad I thought you were saying it's too risky to sign free agents like Starks because of an injury history(Because you mentioned Kearse too).

Sorry, misunderstood your point, completely agree with your actual point.