2006 World Cup

[azsouthendzone]

Thats pretty off base, the Mexicans have been perfecting the art of diving for years. Cuathemoc Blanco and Luis Hernandez were famous for it. Latin American countries are just as guilty of it as any European team. I remember the South American goalkeeper a few years ago who pretended he was hit in the eye by something thrown from the stands (with fake blood and all) and the match was called with his team declared the victor (they were the visitors) he did the best acting/flop job I'd ever seen. He was handed like a 1 year ban when they finally figured out he was a fraud...but despicable, rather than trying to win on the field he faked an injury to get his team a decision.

Diving is a part of the game like it or not and it works with a lot of ref's because all they see is the result and forget what actually happened.

Also don't delude yourself some Americans are pretty good at it too. Donovan is a guy who takes a dive as well as anyone....Beasley too.

Touche, but when was the last time you saw an American leave on the stretcher??? My point is that the all out acting is far more prevalent in this tournament by the Euros.

 

[Zeno]

Zeno, I'd actually like us to go with something more along the lines of a 3-1-5-1 or 3-1-4-2, kind of what we played today, only with maybe an extra midfielder in place of the defender. Let ***** anchor the center with Cherundelo and Bocanegra beside him, and put O'Brien where Mastroeni was.

I think O'Brien is a bit more attack oriented than Mastroeni but I think Reyna could more than replace Mastroeni back there. Reyna can disrupt in the midfield but isn't much of a threat in the attack. O'Brien's passing and ball skills are equal to Reynas but he seems to have better attacking skill.

I have a fear that Onyewu will get his second yellow in this match though. With the way todays match was called I thought for sure he would have a card before it ended...he did make some hard tackles (there are probably some very sore Italian's tonight too).

 

[Zeno]

Touche, but when was the last time you saw an American leave on the stretcher??? My point is that the all out acting is far more prevalent in this tournament by the Euros.

I'll agree with you there, Americans may flop but they don't play it out to the extent of a stretcher being needed. It never made sense to me anyway, you are hurting your team for that time you are on the sideline because they are playing a man down until you get your magical water spray and are miraculously healed.

 

[CaptTurbo]

Mastreoni is lying then, no matter what commentator I heard or former ref on post game shows they all agreed good call. .

Wow then your watching the wrong shows. I havent seen one post game show or world cup show where they said the ref was good. On ESPN they had an Italien commentator that said the ref was awful.

 

[Nate]

I would suggest you try non US sources for a chance and not the one's for the US audience... A clear majority of all British newspaper websites describe all sentoffs as "clearly justified", the game itself as "sometimes brutal" and the US players as "dumb for not recognizing the rules at hand for the tournament". The referee is complimented in being right regarding the four main critical plays but his assistants are critized for his many wrong offside calls, often against Italy and thereby favouring the US defensive line. Journalists praise the US for their effort and agree that all neutral spectators were rooting for the US boys at the end of the game for their display of passion. As much as I can tell from my seat at the stadiums southwest corner that was also true for the neutrals in the stadium.

That view also is prevalent on all big German news and soccer outlets like Spiegel, FAZ, Sueddeutsche, FR, Kicker, etc and Swiss papers NZZ and Blick as well as the Austrian Kurier follow suit. Add spanish El Mundo Deportivo, Marca and El Mundo to that list, too. I didnt bother to look up some French and Italian sites because for obvious reasons you wouldnt accept any comments from that countries press anyway. Ah, I forgot to mention that all, and I mean all, non English sites I looked up said that the cards were well earned.

In the end I think you and your countrymens judgement is impaired as much as mine is anytime my local FC Kaiserslautern soccer team plays a heated and important game. But inspite of that, best wishes from overseas and an inspired game against Ghana on thursday.

 

[Stout]

I have a fear that Onyewu will get his second yellow in this match though. With the way todays match was called I thought for sure he would have a card before it ended...he did make some hard tackles (there are probably some very sore Italian's tonight too).

Doesn't matter if ***** gets a yellow in the next game. He doesn't leave the game (unless he gets two yellows in this game) and all cards are wiped clean for the next round (unless he got a red in this coming game). Get 'er done, *****!

 

[Ollie]

I didnt bother to look up some French and Italian sites because for obvious reasons you wouldnt accept any comments from that countries press anyway.

For what it worth, all french newspapers and tvs said the red cards were deserved, and plead that De Rossi shouldn't play 'til the end of the tournament. And they all congratulated the US team for being able to neutralize the italians, despite playing 9 vs 10.

 

[Renz]

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[Zeno]

Doesn't matter if ***** gets a yellow in the next game. He doesn't leave the game (unless he gets two yellows in this game) and all cards are wiped clean for the next round (unless he got a red in this coming game). Get 'er done, *****!

It will suspend him for the next game of the second round assuming we move on.

 

[Stout]

It will suspend him for the next game of the second round assuming we move on.

It will not. All cards are wiped clean after the group stages. Only if he earns two yellows or a straight red IN THIS GAME will he be suspended for the next game, assuming we advance.

 

[Zeno]

It will not. All cards are wiped clean after the group stages. Only if he earns two yellows or a straight red IN THIS GAME will he be suspended for the next game, assuming we advance.

I am pretty sure you are wrong on this one. If a player accumulates his second yellow in the group phases during his teams last match of the group phase he will be suspended for their round of 16 game. This is a reason many teams hold players out that are carrying a yellow for their last group match.

 

[Zeno]

I am pretty sure you are wrong on this one. If a player accumulates his second yellow in the group phases during his teams last match of the group phase he will be suspended for their round of 16 game. This is a reason many teams hold players out that are carrying a yellow for their last group match.

I'm absolutely right on this....read this part of an article...

BERLIN, June 18 (Reuters) - Michael Ballack said on Sunday he would play his usual aggressive game against Ecuador in Germany's final group game, even though he is threatened by suspension after picking up a yellow card.

"It's very difficult to hold back at the World Cup," the Germany captain said at a news conference. "We want to win this game, play well and keep our confidence high.
"You need consistency and stability in defence" - Ballack

"Strong tackling is part of the game."

Germany have ruled out resting Ballack for Tuesday's match at the Olympiastadion, when they will have to beat Ecuador to secure first place in Group A.

Another yellow card would rule Ballack out of the second round match, which is likely to be against Sweden or England.

 

[Nasser22]

France with another tie! They have been a big dissapointment so far. They were supposed to be one of the teams competing for the Cup, but right now they only have 2 points with ties against Switzerland and Korea. Zidane will be suspended for the France-Togo game. They might not even advance!

It makes me happy to see a European team get screwed by the calls after what happened to us.

I knew it would happen but Brazil beating Austrailia means the US definetly will play them now if we advance...

 

[BigDavis75]

I would suggest you try non US sources for a chance and not the one's for the US audience... A clear majority of all British newspaper websites describe all sentoffs as "clearly justified", the game itself as "sometimes brutal" and the US players as "dumb for not recognizing the rules at hand for the tournament". The referee is complimented in being right regarding the four main critical plays but his assistants are critized for his many wrong offside calls, often against Italy and thereby favouring the US defensive line. Journalists praise the US for their effort and agree that all neutral spectators were rooting for the US boys at the end of the game for their display of passion. As much as I can tell from my seat at the stadiums southwest corner that was also true for the neutrals in the stadium.

That view also is prevalent on all big German news and soccer outlets like Spiegel, FAZ, Sueddeutsche, FR, Kicker, etc and Swiss papers NZZ and Blick as well as the Austrian Kurier follow suit. Add spanish El Mundo Deportivo, Marca and El Mundo to that list, too. I didnt bother to look up some French and Italian sites because for obvious reasons you wouldnt accept any comments from that countries press anyway. Ah, I forgot to mention that all, and I mean all, non English sites I looked up said that the cards were well earned.

In the end I think you and your countrymens judgement is impaired as much as mine is anytime my local FC Kaiserslautern soccer team plays a heated and important game. But inspite of that, best wishes from overseas and an inspired game against Ghana on thursday.

I ref, there is NO WAY that play was deserving of a yellow. You either have to be Italian or have little knowledge of the game to think that tackle warrants a red.

Arena made the stupidest coaching decsion I've seen in the tournament thus far by not using the last sub. Seriously, I cannot emphasize how bad of a move this was. You have one of the fastest strikers in the world in EJ and McBride who has done nothing but ruin every opportunity on goal we had, and you refuse to use the sub? Pure stupidity. Everyone on the field was dead and a sub clearly would have helped. Arena is just a bad game coach.

 

[Stout]

I'm absolutely right on this....read this part of an article...

BERLIN, June 18 (Reuters) - Michael Ballack said on Sunday he would play his usual aggressive game against Ecuador in Germany's final group game, even though he is threatened by suspension after picking up a yellow card.

"It's very difficult to hold back at the World Cup," the Germany captain said at a news conference. "We want to win this game, play well and keep our confidence high.
"You need consistency and stability in defence" - Ballack

"Strong tackling is part of the game."

Germany have ruled out resting Ballack for Tuesday's match at the Olympiastadion, when they will have to beat Ecuador to secure first place in Group A.

Another yellow card would rule Ballack out of the second round match, which is likely to be against Sweden or England.

Yeah, I thought about it after a while, and realized that you were right. I was thinking of the fact that all cards are wiped clean after you progress, but if you have already incurred a suspension (a red or two yellows) you will miss the next game. For example, if ***** keeps his nose clean and we progress, his one yellow will be wiped out. My bad.

 

[Zeno]

Arena made the stupidest coaching decsion I've seen in the tournament thus far by not using the last sub. Seriously, I cannot emphasize how bad of a move this was. You have one of the fastest strikers in the world in EJ and McBride who has done nothing but ruin every opportunity on goal we had, and you refuse to use the sub? Pure stupidity. Everyone on the field was dead and a sub clearly would have helped. Arena is just a bad game coach.

Looking back I can kinda sort of see why Arena didn't use his last sub...had he done it and a player cramped up or was injured the US would have been playing 8 on 10.

On the other hand I was screaming at the TV from about the 65th minute on for Johnson to come in the game for McBride...but I can see his point.

He is sort of in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation with that last sub.

 

[Nate]

Yeah, I thought about it after a while, and realized that you were right.

Hope you will think a little bit longer, pal. Perhaps not everything is lost then...

I ref

Oh my, pitiful players. I guess the ambulance is needed frequently for your games. I dont know what you have done when during the ref seminars they were talking about reckless tackles potentially endangering the health of players and the mandatory fines for behaviour like that. Probably you were having too much Guinness, werent you?

German interpretations for FIFA rules say this (roughly translated from a copy of the official outline for German Refs by the DFB, laying in front of me on my desk):You dont even have to hit a player in order to receive a yellow warning if you challenge uncontrolled with only one straightened leg going soles up into the direction of the opposing player and thereby potentially endangering his health. If you hit a player recklessly in an uncontrolled full-speed, sliding tackle, and thereby endangering his health, you are to be ejected.

...you have to be an italian or have little knowledge of the game...

Yeah, thats why the head of the German refereeing association in todays edition of "Die Welt" said: "As clear as the first red card was the second, this time against the USA, shortly before the break. It was an unnecessary rude tackle, potentially endangering the health of the opposing player. It was absolutely the right call according to the rule book."
http://http://www.welt.de/data/2006/06/19/922388.html

So lets see: We have the head of the German refereeing committee, we have one of the three best FIFA referees of the last ten years who just retired due to the age limit and we have an overwhelming majority of journalists and fans from all over the world (even a lot of US fans and journalists do so ) claiming it to be the correct call.

OK Stout, they all have no knowledge of the game and you are one wise man. Congratulations. Enjoy your next round of Guinness

 

[Stout]

Hope you will think a little bit longer, pal. Perhaps not everything is lost then...


Oh my, pitiful players. I guess the ambulance is needed frequently for your games. I dont know what you have done when during the ref seminars they were talking about reckless tackles potentially endangering the health of players and the mandatory fines for behaviour like that. Probably you were having too much Guinness, werent you?

German interpretations for FIFA rules say this (roughly translated from a copy of the official outline for German Refs by the DFB, laying in front of me on my desk):You dont even have to hit a player in order to receive a yellow warning if you challenge uncontrolled with only one straightened leg going soles up into the direction of the opposing player and thereby potentially endangering his health. If you hit a player recklessly in an uncontrolled full-speed, sliding tackle, and thereby endangering his health, you are to be ejected.


Yeah, thats why the head of the German refereeing association in todays edition of "Die Welt" said: "As clear as the first red card was the second, this time against the USA, shortly before the break. It was an unnecessary rude tackle, potentially endangering the health of the opposing player. It was absolutely the right call according to the rule book."
http://http://www.welt.de/data/2006/06/19/922388.html

So lets see: We have the head of the German refereeing committee, we have one of the three best FIFA referees of the last ten years who just retired due to the age limit and we have an overwhelming majority of journalists and fans from all over the world (even a lot of US fans and journalists do so ) claiming it to be the correct call.

OK Stout, they all have no knowledge of the game and you are one wise man. Congratulations. Enjoy your next round of Guinness

First of all, you can shove your snot-nosed little insults where the sun don't shine...don't insult me, PAL. You're acting like a snooty know-it-all. I'd ask you to kindly not try to implicate me as in the above post. Contrary to how your post reads, I did NOT say 'I ref'...that was another poster. You may retract that part of your post now, thanks.

Second of all, I'm soooo surpised Europeans are siding with the ref on this one...I mean, no agenda at all for sticking it to an American side who played better than a European soccer power, is there?

The fact remains that American soccer experts are unanimous in ripping the ref for inconsistent calls and for overpunishing us within the span of moments. And then you have European news sources spinning the opposite. Yeah, I'm sure they'd have been thrilled for the US to beat a European soccer power IN EUROPE in the World Cup.

Interesting that this ref, Jorge Larrionda, was banned from the 2002 World Cup for officiating 'irregularities'.

http://www.soccernet.com/worldcup/news/2002/0109/20020109wcref.html

http://www.soccernet.com/columns/2002/0110/20020110update2002.html

 

[Nate]

Stout, wont cut it out of my post, but will apologize for addressing you instead of BigDavis who provoked it by his know it all attitude. You were not the one responding that way, meaning that I made an obvious mistake and that probably I was the one who had a Guinness too much (ok,not really).

Otherwise I like to be a European know it all who reminds you that it makes no sense at all for all the neutrals in the stadium (most of them Germans) or on message boards (people from all over the world, excluding the Italian supporters) who sided with the USA during the game to just turn around after the game and now diss the US by defending the refs decisions.

Ever heard about European rivalries. Its not that European soccer nations really feel love for eachother. For the most they have heated rivalries and enjoy every loss of their archrivals...there is no european feeling of unity, especially not in that regard! By the way, fans in Europe are not really fond of the Italian style of catenaccio...

If you would have lost one could argue that you guys are bad loosers, but since you got a well-deserved draw, I just dont get it. One supports your teams play (most of the ones journalists wrote very positive about the US boys,too) and tells you to back off the ref, so: He really must have sth against the Americans...

And since we are at it: on one of the biggest soccer boards on the net (www.bigsoccer.net) US supporters/nationals opened a much supported extra thread for the "non-delusional US soccer fans" because they couldnt take the whining of their countrymen about in their view absolutely correct calls in an in their view really good game of their team. Dozens of your countrymen tried to instill some reason into the debate, but predictably they were dismissed for being anti-american.

You guys are really making it very hard for every European supporter of your team to further root for it.

 

[CaptTurbo]

You guys are really making it very hard for every European supporter of your team to further root for it.

Please stop rooting for the US. We have no need for your support. When we finally do win the world cup please feel free to jump off the cliff with every other non american. Because, believe me, when we do win it, and we will, with our 4th best line of athletes, non americans will be so upset that they will seek the nearest cliff.

The ITalian commentator on ESPN said the americans were robbed. And he was saying how awful we were before the match started and that Italy would crush us. So I would say for him to say we were robbed is enough for me.

 

[Stout]

Okay, Nate. Whatever you say, bud. Tell me, will this guy ref another game in this tournament? My bet says no. Did he ref a game at the 2002 tournament? Well, he was supposed to, but he was suspended. I'm not saying the Italians, now known as soccer cheaters in their domestic league, bought off the ref (though it's not outside the realm of possibility). No, I am rather saying that the ref has, in the past, been proved to be irresponsible and inconsistent. He was certainly inconsistent in our game. Why would he change styles AFTER the red cards? Why call the game looser only AFTER calling the reds? Curious, very curious.

 

[English on tour]

the actual standard of reffing at the WC has been ok in my book - a little to eager to get the book out at times but the rest of it has been ok with the odd game or two.

The USA Italy game was a strange one for me - i dont think the ref got it that wrong tbh! the first USA one would not always be red but there are a lot of other ref that would give it too! i also agree that if he went on the way he did the game would have ended up as an 8 a side game!

the Mexican in charge of the England Paraguay game was a on a ego trip too. (strange how we pick the faults in the games we care about most )


the problem is you get used to a style of refereeing form you country (and even governing body to certian degree) and when your games or taken by to be honest refs of a lower level it makes for some 'interesting' results!

 

[Dback Jon]

Ok Nate, Ollie, etc - Do you HONESTLY believe that Mastroeni would have been given a red card if the Italian player had not been red carded earlier? It was a foul, and a stupid one at that, but not a red card foul by any means - yellow card was warranted - that is all.

And a well-deserved draw? - the U.S. got screwed on that one as well.

 

[Nate]

Please stop rooting for the US. We have no need for your support. When we finally do win the world cup please feel free to jump off the cliff with every other non american. Because, believe me, when we do win it, and we will, with our 4th best line of athletes, non americans will be so upset that they will seek the nearest cliff.

Yeah, nothing but arrogance and me against the world attitude. The US boys which slept at my house for free since they couldnt find any accomodation in town the two nights before the actual game definitely didnt act like that. And it was nice that your countrymen that have visited my hometown mostly displayed a much better and much more open minded attitude. Thousands of Americans who partied in the streets also seemed to like the open and friendly reception they got. Many seemed genuinely surprised that Germany is not Americas hater heaven (as some previously believed judged by the shirts they wore), and that the locals can differentiate between the president and the people of the US of A.

So some prefer being friends. Others seem to prefer hatred. Lets hope that the good guys will prevail...

P.S.: Get some sense into your thoughts! You would then notice that there will be no reason to go over the cliff if the US would win (which very well could happen at some time, but I doubt that they will dominate like you predict). I like the US. Many others around the world do, too. Even you will not change that Oh, just one last thing: That doesnt mean that we have to agree with everything you say and think.

 

[Nate]

Ok Nate, Ollie, etc - Do you HONESTLY believe that Mastroeni would have been given a red card if the Italian player had not been red carded earlier? It was a foul, and a stupid one at that, but not a red card foul by any means - yellow card was warranted - that is all.

And a well-deserved draw? - the U.S. got screwed on that one as well.

Just in general:
A referee must react to what the players give him. Thats why the same referee in a different game with a different preface and a different atmosphere can hand out stronger fines or lower ones. If the players cross the line continously (and it must not be the same player who does it), a referee has to react so that he doesnt lose control over the game.

Regarding the game:
Just think about what probably would have happened if the ref would not have show the red card for the reckless late tackle (I stay by that: Every mistimed tackle with a straightened leg with with one crushes into a the legs of another player is potentially very dangerous - or is it not?). Italian players would have been furious, going in for similar tackles. Tension on the field would have been evenly higher. How long would it have taken that one player would have injured another. Emotions would have been even higher. Dont forget when judging the tackle where it occured. It was deep into the Italian half, and there was absolutely no reason to tackle like that. Mas just made a really stupid play, not warranted by the situation.

As English on tour wrote above, different countries have different refereeing traditions and norms. By FIFA standards that definitely deserved a red card, regardless of the circumstances. This is a FIFA tournament. Players were instructed before the tournament by referees what the rules interpretation would be like (I read that in a newspaper last week, for years thats standard procedure before every Bundesliga season and every Eurocupean Cup, too) If Concaf or the FA let the players challenge harder, its a decision of that federation. It does not apply for the WC, though, making it more difficult playing for players used to that rule interpretation. But thats not the fault of FIFA or the ref at hand.