2011 Draft Thread

AfroSuns

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Why would you wanna trade Gortat, without giving him a full season on the team. He has shown what he is capable of within the spate of time he has been here.
I disagree that his value is at it's peak, he is young and now he has the whole off-season to develop his game, knowing he will be starter in this league.
 
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slinslin

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Why would you wanna trade Gortat, without giving him a full season on the team. He has shown what he is capable of within the spate of time he has been here.
I disagree that his value is at it's peak, he is young and now he has the whole off-season to develop his game, knowing he will be starter in this league.

27 isn't exactly young, he is a player in his prime, I wouldn't expect much development. He is the kind of player he is.

Without Nash his offense will likely become much less effective and his value drops. Also right now he is signed for 3 years at a very affordable 7M$ per season that is a valueable contract for the price another reason why his value should be peaking right now.

The Suns would be smart to really think this through because Gortat isn't exactly a proven commodity yet either and who knows really how effective he would be without Nash and in a slower pace.

Anyway my point is even if Gortat is a really good player. He is definately not going to carry us. We need 2-3 years rebuilding. We are probably at least 4-5 years away from being a possible contender at which point Gortat might have left in FA or is not as good a player at 32 years old.

If hypothetically we could probably get top 7 picks for Nash or Gortat

Look at those scenarios..

C- Robin Lopez
PF - Perry Jones
SF - Derrick Williams
SG - Alec Burks
PG - Aaron Brooks

C- Robin Lopez
PF- Channing Frye
SF- Derrick Williams
SG- Harrison Barnes
PG- Brandon Knight
 
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leclerc

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So would you trade Gortat for Perry Jones, Derrick Williams or Harrison Barnes?
Would you trade Nash for Perry Jones, Derrick Williams or Harrison Barnes?

I would and if you got Knight, Burks or Walker with our own pick that would be one heck of a young nucleus regardless of who calls this draft weak.

I've got to admit that is tempting. Young nucleus sounds like music to my ears.
 
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Covert Rain

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27 isn't exactly young, he is a player in his prime, I wouldn't expect much development. He is the kind of player he is.

He will be in his prime for at least another 5 years or so and I completely disagree he is who he is. His extended playing time with the Suns have already proven he has more room to improve. He is doing things he didn't get a chance to do in Orlando. With experience he will continue to develop.

Gortat isn't a typical example of a player who has started his entire career and you know what he is. Gortat is the opposite. He has had very little playing time and very little wear and tear on his body. He has not even come into his own IMO. He will improve.

Without Nash his offense will likely become much less effective and his value drops. Also right now he is signed for 3 years at a very affordable 7M$ per season that is a valueable contract for the price another reason why his value should be peaking right now.

That is true of every player on this team in this system. The Suns would use a different system without Nash. Gortat, like any other player will have to adjust. Remember that he showed potential under the Magic system and they don't have a Nash. That tells me Gortat can play in other systems.

Having a real center in the NBA is a commodity not something to be taken lightly. Look at how many trades, draft and other moves the Suns have made to get real centers that never panned out.

Gortat is proven and you want to trade him for players that are NOT proven commodities that might not work out? That is ridiculous.

The Suns would be smart to really think this through because Gortat isn't exactly a proven commodity yet either and who knows really how effective he would be without Nash and in a slower pace.

He is not a proven commodity? In what sense? His primary focus on this team was to provide some rebounding and defense. He is absolutely a commodity in that area. His scoring was a bonus and something the Suns hoped he could do.

Even if he becomes a less valuable offensive center, his most valuable traits (playing defense and rebounding) are the most important.

The Suns would be incredibly stupid to give up on a player that improves the team in those two areas considering it's been a Suns weakness....FOREVER.

This makes zero sense. You aboslutely keep Gortat unless your getting a Howard type player in return. PERIOD. Legit Centers are hard to come by in the NBA unless you have not been paying attention.

Anyway my point is even if Gortat is a really good player. He is definately not going to carry us. We need 2-3 years rebuilding. We are probably at least 4-5 years away from being a possible contender at which point Gortat might have left in FA or is not as good a player at 32 years old.

We don't need him to carry us. We need him to be a major part of what we do. Also, the Suns have never waited 4 to 5 years to rebuild. This team will makes moves now versus building through the draft over a 4 to 5 year period. This team doesn't stand pat.

If hypothetically we could probably get top 7 picks for Nash or Gortat

Look at those scenarios..

C- Robin Lopez
PF - Perry Jones
SF - Derrick Williams
SG - Alec Burks
PG - Aaron Brooks

C- Robin Lopez
PF- Channing Frye
SF- Derrick Williams
SG- Harrison Barnes
PG- Brandon Knight

I see a horrible team if Lopez is all you have on your roster to play Center. I see a team that is back to giving up record points in the paint, record rebounds and having zero production at the Center position.

That is also assuming that some of the players you mention above even pan out. Not to mention that everyone has been preaching get away from finesse and offense as this teams focus. This team needs to get tougher in the paint and build around defense. That will never happen without a legit center.

You can't get past Lopez is not starting material. Amazing.
 
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Russ Smith

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"I'm going to be an Ohio State Buckeye next year," he said. "This isn't why I came here, to come in here and see my seniors in here crying. I came here to win a national championship."

Plenty of people make pledges in the rubble of an emotional loss only to change their mind later, when the sting and suddenness of the season fades and the promise of the NBA looms.

Sullinger, who had 21 points and 16 rebounds in his final game of the season, insists that won't happen.

"I'm a man of my word," Sullinger said. "I don't change my word and no one changes it for me. This is what I want."

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=6260339



Anything can happen but Isiah Thomas said the exact same thing after UW won, and he just declared today and Gary parrish is reporting he does not intend to come back although he won't hire an agent immediately.
 

Russ Smith

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I am curious why you have Perry Jones so low. I see him worst case Anthony Randolph, best case a better Chris Bosh.

Perry Jones was one of the most efficient college players. He just happened to be on a terrible Baylor team with horrible PG play. He is very athletic, 6'11 230-240lbs, 7'3 wingspan has good ball handling skills for a big man, good range, decent jumpers for such a young big. The potential is immense.

Put him next to Nash for his rookie season and he has a chance to repeat what Amare did as a rookie if you ask me.

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Perry-Jones-5713/

has a good scouting video, Baylor just did not use him very well. I hope you are right though, because if Kanter and Valanciunas go top 7 as they should that could mean Jones would be in reach for us even if Sullinger does not declare and Fredette does not get overdrafted by Utah.


I'm not sold on Perry Jones, he has a frame that screams NBA all star, long, athletic, moves well etc. He's just one of those guys that looks great against weak talent and looks lost against good talent. Turns the ball over way too much, needs to get a lot stronger. Doesn't rebound near where he should, lacks a high motor etc. The talent is off the charts, he just comes off as one of those kids who takes the easy way out.

He put up some really good numbers at times but I watched them 4-5 times this year and he just flat disappears. he'll either be REALLY good, or a total bust IMHO.
 

Russ Smith

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etc. are my ideal choices and if Nash gets Traded adding a PG with that Pick.


I wish I had more film on some of the combo guards and PG's etc. though - i thought the Suns were settled in most of the year at that position and I didn't get to see the Boston College kid at all. Demetri McCamey, Malcolm Lee, Iman Shumpert, etc. (examples) I wish i had more game-film of because i remember Russell Westbrook moving up Draftboards quick and these are some of the 1st Round bubble guys.

I love Lee but he's not a combo he proved that last year when hehad to play PG and was invisible on offense.

Malcolm is a great kid, plays hard, defends his butt off, but he is a weak player, can't finish inside(always double pumps and gets it blocked). He's a very inconsistent shooter, weak left hand, and he has a fairly persistent issue with leg cramping. They've tried everything to combat it but every now and then it would pop up again and he'd miss time in games with cramps.

Great kid, if he stays in the draft I wish him all the success in the world, but I think he's shown he can't play PG.
 
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slinslin

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I see a horrible team if Lopez is all you have on your roster to play Center. I see a team that is back to giving up record points in the paint, record rebounds and having zero production at the Center position.

That is also assuming that some of the players you mention above even pan out. Not to mention that everyone has been preaching get away from finesse and offense as this teams focus. This team needs to get tougher in the paint and build around defense. That will never happen without a legit center.

You can't get past Lopez is not starting material. Amazing.

We are a horrible team going forward anyway. At least we have 3 stud prospects 20 years or younger.

Gortat isn't a world beater. In fact you could 3 centers as good as him in FA this year in Chandler, Oden or Gasol not to mention Nene.

You would have a point if having Gortat as a center would make a difference for this team to contend or now but it will mean nothing as you can't possibly expect us to become a contender anytime soon.

Tell me you would not trade Gortat for Derrick Williams? Our future would look much better.
 
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elindholm

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If a team offered a top 5 pick for Marcin Gortat in this draft would you do it?

If the Suns had someone they really loved, yes, but otherwise it's better to hang onto him and hope to use him as a trade piece if a legitimate young star should happen to come on the market.
 

Cheesebeef

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We are a horrible team going forward anyway. At least we have 3 stud prospects 20 years or younger.

Gortat isn't a world beater. In fact you could 3 centers as good as him in FA this year in Chandler, Oden or Gasol not to mention Nene.

Oden?! How early do you have to get up in the morning to smoke enough crack to throw his name into the conversation?
 

Cheesebeef

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There is absolutely no chance in hell that anyone would give up a top-7 pick for Nash.

agreed... unless they were smoking the same amount of crack that slin did this morning before he said Oden was just as good as Gortat.
 
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slinslin

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There is absolutely no chance in hell that anyone would give up a top-7 pick for Nash.

Who knows I have seen deals like that suggested for Nash/Lopez by Minnesota and Toronto fans.

I think Toronto is a possibility and Minnesota as well. Toronto badly needs a PG and a Center. Minnesota also needs both even if Rubio comes over they probably want a good PG since they were interested in Brooks.

I could also see Utah as a team that might be interested in giving up a very high pick for Nash.

I mean a huge role in those deals also plays what kind of undesirable contracts those teams can dump on us for Nash.
 
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slinslin

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agreed... unless they were smoking the same amount of crack that slin did this morning before he said Oden was just as good as Gortat.

Oden when healthy is obviously better than Gortat. A healthy Oden is the 2nd best defensive center in the league ahead of Bogut and not much behind Howard.

The only issue with Oden is health, he is a high risk but for the right price could be a great gamble.
 
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Cheesebeef

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Oden when healthy is obviously better than Gortat. A healthy Oden is the 2nd best defensive center in the league ahead of Bogut and not much behind Howard.

oh, I didn't realize we were talking about fantasy land where Mr. Glass is actually healthy and hasn't missed 4/5s of his entire career.
 

Cheesebeef

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Who knows I have seen deals like that suggested for Nash/Lopez by Minnesota and Toronto fans.

I think Toronto is a possibility and Minnesota as well. Toronto badly needs a PG and a Center. Minnesota also needs both even if Rubio comes over they probably want a good PG since they were interested in Brooks.

so, those HORRIBLE teams with no future, are going to trade for a PG who basically has NO FUTURE even though they'll have a chance in the lottery to take PG for the future?

that makes a lot of sense.
 

Covert Rain

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Oden when healthy is obviously better than Gortat.

Huh? Based on what exactly? He might be stronger than Gortat but has even ever had a stretch of double doubles in his career (what little of it there is) to match Gortat?

Has he?


A healthy Oden is the 2nd best defensive center in the league ahead of Bogut and not much behind Howard.

The only issue with Oden is health, he is a high risk but for the right price could be a great gamble.

Key word Healthy. He can't stay healthy. He will never be the same player after all the surgeries. This means absolutely nothing. Health is not the "only" issue...it's "THE ISSUE".

So let me get this straight......trading a legit Center for a injury prone Center is a "great gamble"?!?!?!?

:biglaugh:

Dear lord....your Lopez love is clouding your judgment.
 
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Chaplin

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Oden when healthy is obviously better than Gortat. A healthy Oden is the 2nd best defensive center in the league ahead of Bogut and not much behind Howard.

That is simply not true. No facts bear this out because they don't freaking exist.
 
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slinslin

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so, those HORRIBLE teams with no future, are going to trade for a PG who basically has NO FUTURE even though they'll have a chance in the lottery to take PG for the future?

that makes a lot of sense.

Minnesota has a glut of young talent. They are horrible but they have a future.

Rubio, Flynn, Ellington, Webster, Johnson, Beasley, Randolph, Love, Milicic etc...

They have Luke Ridnour who is 30 other than that their oldest player is 25...


Huh? Based on what exactly? He might be stronger than Gortat but has even ever had a stretch of double doubles in his career (what little of it there is) to match Gortat?

Has he?


Key word Healthy. He can't stay healthy. He will never be the same player after all the surgeries. This means absolutely nothing. Health is not the "only" issue...it's "THE ISSUE".

So let me get this straight......trading a legit Center for a injury prone Center is a "great gamble"?!?!?!?

:biglaugh:

Dear lord....your Lopez love is clouding your judgment.

What the heck has Lopez to do with the discussion. This board has become such a joke.

And of course Oden had those stretches. Oden averaged 11/9 and almost 3 blocks in just 24mpg before his injury while making Portland one of the premier defensive teams. In compairon 11/9 is what Gortat is putting up for us in the last 3 months in about 30mpg with less than 2 blocks plus he is at least 6 years older than Oden and not nearly the interior presence.

That is simply not true. No facts bear this out because they don't freaking exist.

The fact is that Oden was that player before the latest injury.
 

sunsfan88

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Trade Nash & Pietrus to Toronto for Ed Davis and a future 1st rd pick (not this years) Then trade Lopez to Indiana for their 1st rd pick.

Get Burks with our own pick and Nolan Smith with Indiana's.

Smith, Brooks/Dowdell
Burks, Dudley
Hill, Childress
Davis, Frye
Gortat, Siler

^^^A lottery team for maybe 2 seasons but that lineup would be a contender afterwards imo. We retain a vet who is a top defender in Hill and get Burks who has incredible potential. Nolan Smith imo will be Russel Westbrook with a lil less athleticism. Ed Davis can be the PF we groom for the future.
 

Covert Rain

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We are a horrible team going forward anyway. At least we have 3 stud prospects 20 years or younger.

3 Stud players? Again...your assuming any of them pan out. So, again, your operating under the fallacy that trading a commodity for unproven players is always good idea.

On what planet? That seldom works in favor of the team trading a commodity and usually the only time you see it is when a team is trying to shed salary.

Gortat isn't a world beater. In fact you could 3 centers as good as him in FA this year in Chandler, Oden or Gasol not to mention Nene.

You would have a point if having Gortat as a center would make a difference for this team to contend or now but it will mean nothing as you can't possibly expect us to become a contender anytime soon.

Tell me you would not trade Gortat for Derrick Williams? Our future would look much better.

Who said Gortat was a world beater? Who needs him to be? We don't need a world beater at Center. We need a good center. We need a consistent center.

Riddle me this. How many true Centers have the Suns had that were consistent in the last 10 years? You keep down playing the fact that we finally have one. That completely baffles me. The Suns history alone proves how hard they are to fine.

You want to trade that away and take your chances in free agency or in the draft?!?!

Yes....let's do that because Suns history is on your side. :sarcasm:

Again, Slinslin....you trade for a sure thing. You don't trade for players that could end up giving you nothing and pray that you can land a free agent that is as good.

That is the most asinine strategy I have ever heard.

P.S. In the last 20 years name me one team whose best player was the PG? You need a good PG. You don't need a great PG. There is a reason you if ever see teams trade a legit big man for a PG. It rarely happens.

What the heck has Lopez to do with the discussion. This board has become such a joke.

Your ridiculous moves had Lopez as our primary center. I would say that had a lot to do with it. You continue to act like Lopez is a starter, should start or even would be adequate at that position.

And of course Oden had those stretches. Oden averaged 11/9 and almost 3 blocks in just 24mpg before his injury while making Portland one of the premier defensive teams. In compairon 11/9 is what Gortat is putting up for us in the last 3 months in about 30mpg with less than 2 blocks plus he is at least 6 years older than Oden and not nearly the interior presence.

The fact is that Oden was that player before the latest injury.

He did? Show me specifically where he posted as many double doubles as Gortat in the same period of time. Also, stop even mentioning Oden. It's really a joke. The guy can't stay healthy. You can't mortgage your future on a guy who can't stay healthy. It's as simple as that.
 
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Zobaczcie suki

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P.S. In the last 20 years name me one team whose best player was the PG? You need a good PG. You don't need a great PG. There is a reason you if ever see teams trade a legit big man for a PG. It rarely happens.

May not meet your 20 years, but how about:

Showtime Lakers--Magic Johnson

Detroit Pistons--Isaiah Thomas

:shrug:
 

Covert Rain

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May not meet your 20 years, but how about:

Showtime Lakers--Magic Johnson

Detroit Pistons--Isaiah Thomas

:shrug:


That doesn't bolster the argument. If having a dominant PG on your team nets a title every 20 years or so.....that tells me that having the best player on your team at another position is probably more important. I am not saying that it can't be important to have a great PG. Just making the point that having quality big men in the NBA are much more important to a team than a dominant PG.
 
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JCSunsfan

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That doesn't bolster the argument. If having a dominant PG on your team nets a title every 20 years or so.....that tells me that having the best player on your team at another position is probably more important. I am not saying that it can't be important to have a great PG. Just making the point that having quality big men in the NBA are much more important to a team than a dominant PG.

Championships can be won in different ways. Making such generalizations does not seem accurate.

The Spurs have won championships with a pf and pg and a lot of good role players. The Pistons had a team of very good role players and starts. The Bulls did it with the best player and a side kick and excellet coaching. So did the Lakers early on. The Heat did it that way too. That was the same pattern with last year's Lakers.

The Celtics did it with a the big 3.
 

AzStevenCal

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Championships can be won in different ways. Making such generalizations does not seem accurate.

The Spurs have won championships with a pf and pg and a lot of good role players. The Pistons had a team of very good role players and starts. The Bulls did it with the best player and a side kick and excellet coaching. So did the Lakers early on. The Heat did it that way too. That was the same pattern with last year's Lakers.

The Celtics did it with a the big 3.

I agree with Daren's contention that PG is probably the least important position to have your superstar at. However, Utah didn't come up short because they had Stockton and Phoenix didn't come up short because they had KJ, it was because Chicago had a transcendent player. The same has been true throughout the Lakers recent championship run(s). And the Celtics get referred to as the big 3 but Rondo may well have been the most important player on that team.

Steve
 

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