2011 Draft Thread

[slinslin]

Depends on how you look at it. Most people would put Dwight Howard, Lebron James, Kobe Bryant, Kevin Garnett above players like Nash, Kidd etc
And now don't get me started on how Dwight and Lebron haven't done more than Nash or Dirk. They are about a decade younger still and Lebron and Kobe are clearly by far the 2 best players of the last decade there can't be any argument.

 

[Cheesewater]

Depends on how you look at it. Most people would put Dwight Howard, Lebron James, Kobe Bryant, Kevin Garnett above players like Nash, Kidd etc

But not Duncan, Rose, Durant, Wade, Paul....

 

[Cheesewater]

Depends on how you look at it. Most people would put Dwight Howard, Lebron James, Kobe Bryant, Kevin Garnett above players like Nash, Kidd etc
And now don't get me started on how Dwight and Lebron haven't done more than Nash or Dirk. They are about a decade younger still and Lebron and Kobe are clearly by far the 2 best players of the last decade there can't be any argument.

I got news for you. Durant and Rose (both went to college by the way) are going to win MVPs and lead to championships a lot faster than Bryant and James.

 

[HooverDam]

Did you look at Earl Clark? He was in college for 3 years and he was still raw.

This is a non argument. Players taken in the middle of the draft are always going to be iffy, sometimes they work out, sometimes they don't. No matter what drafting can't be a science. Pointing out one player doesn't make your entire case, sorry.

And yeah he came from a rough background so what is better for him? Put him in a NBA situation where he has regular practice and a team taking care of him and putting money in his pocket to help his family or force him to go to a college situation for 3 years with some token classes, fewer practice and much more time to party and do stupid stuff?

You'll notice I'm advocating for an expanded NBDL, something akin to the MLBs AAA farm system. A guy like Amar'e who came from a very poor and rough background very likely could've gone into a system like that and developed under the Suns (or whoevers) control in lieu of college.

This must be the first conversation I had when people are trying to explain to me that college life teaches responsibility.

Did you go to college? I did and it absolutely taught me those things and I think it does for most people.

I don't know what you want to point out with the scouting argument because highschool players are highly scouted and in the past the success rate has definitely been higher than for players drafted from colleges.

Where are your numbers backing that up? You can't just make some blanket statement as if its a fact with nothing backing it up.

Years of scouting did not prevent the Bobcats from drafting Adam Morrison.

Ndubi Ebi, Robert Swift, Sebastin Telfair, Dorrell Wright, etc....see I can play the cherry pick a bust example game too!

But even if you include those it is still no comparison. Then it is 7 out of 50 compared to 9 out of 800..

The HS players who came out generally were elite level talents who were picked within the lottery. Obviously they'll have a higher rate of panning out than looking at the first round round or draft as a whole. So this is another straw man argument that falls apart upon much thought.

 

[slinslin]

But not Duncan, Rose, Durant, Wade, Paul....

Rose and Durant were drafted after the age limit was enforced. Rose would have definitely been a highschool to NBA player.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Depends on how you look at it. Most people would put Dwight Howard, Lebron James, Kobe Bryant, Kevin Garnett above players like Nash, Kidd etc

They wouldn't list KG/Howard above Shaq/Duncan/Wade/Dirk... maybe nash and probably definitely Kidd though. And Kobe is right at that level with those guys... probably one ups all of them, but LeBron is not in Shaq or Duncan's class yet. not even close.

But again, you neglect to throw CP3, Wade, Shaq, Duncan, Griffin etc, etc. into that group.

and what are we arguing anyway? you said POINT BLANK, the best players in the game never went college... you're wrong. A lot of them did.

And now don't get me started on how Dwight and Lebron haven't done more than Nash or Dirk.

3 MVPs between Nash and Dirk... 2 between Dwight and LeBron... and Dwight's about to get his ass kicked out of the first round of the playoffs and LeBron's been a playoff choke artist his last two seasons. You're giving those guys props for having accomplished very little in their careers to this point. they're all pretty much on the same level as far as their impact on the game. arguing otherwise is pretty damn tough.

They are about a decade younger still and Lebron and Kobe are clearly by far the 2 best players of the last decade there can't be any argument.

huh? Tim Duncan won 3 titles in the last ten years... Shaq's won 4... and yes, Kobe's in that group... but LeBron? Are you kidding me? Wade is every bit LeBron's equal at this point... hell, Bron doesn't even close games anymore and when he does, you see crap like he threw up yesterday that didn't even hit the rim.

Seriously... LeBron is clearly better than Shaq and Duncan this decade? Give me a freaking break.

 

[slinslin]

I got news for you. Durant and Rose (both went to college by the way) are going to win MVPs and lead to championships a lot faster than Bryant and James.

Ah yeah ok..

Whatever man even if they did they were only in college because of the NBA's age limit and for one year.
Both of them would have been top 5 picks out of highschool if they could.

Lebron James is clearly better player anyway as is Kobe Bryant. If you want to accept that or not I don't care. It's fact.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Rose and Durant were drafted after the age limit was enforced. Rose would have definitely been a highschool to NBA player.

and what about Paul, Griffin, Duncan, Deron Williams, Wade?

 

[slinslin]

huh? Tim Duncan won 3 titles in the last ten years... Shaq's won 4... and yes, Kobe's in that group... but LeBron? Are you kidding me? Wade is every bit LeBron's equal at this point... hell, Bron doesn't even close games anymore and when he does, you see crap like he threw up yesterday that didn't even hit the rim.

Seriously... LeBron is clearly better than Shaq and Duncan this decade? Give me a freaking break.

Man you are comparing Lebron and Howard to these guys when both Lebron and Howard still have a decade to play in this league.

 

[slinslin]

and what about Paul, Griffin, Duncan, Deron Williams, Wade?

Griffin was also selected after the age limit was enforced.

And I don't get what you want to prove with your point. I never argued that there are no good players coming out of college.

The assumption that college makes those players is just wrong because the rate of success for players straight out of highschool drafted in the first round is much higher than the rate of success of college players.

 

[Cheesewater]

The assumption that college makes those players is just wrong because the rate of success for players straight out of highschool drafted in the first round is much higher than the rate of success of college players.

The success isn't straight out of high school. They all take YEARS to develop. I'll ask again...name one 18 year old rookie straight out of high school NBA MVP.

 

[slinslin]

Did you go to college? I did and it absolutely taught me those things and I think it does for most people.
.

I did and I have one of the top 5 best degrees in my class. But college/university certainly did not teach me how to be mature, be responsible with money or any of that.
Working 40 hours a week and earning your own paycheck teaches you that, maybe, but certainly not attending a few college classes every week and going to parties every other day and staying up all night long.

Did college help Matt Leinard, Pacman Jones, Eddie Griffin, Vince Young, Jamarcus Russell etc etc to be mature? That argument is so silly. There are mature guys and immature guys. College won't suddenly change their character.
Whoever says that college lifestyle helps someone grow up faster than professional life can't be serious. Especially for these athletes in college who are already stars, basically stay at home all the time because they are always in the center of attention otherwise and invited to every party.

 

[slinslin]

The success isn't straight out of high school. They all take YEARS to develop. I'll ask again...name one 18 year old rookie straight out of high school NBA MVP.

Name one out of college. What a stupid argument.

Rookies aren't supposed to be MVPs. What kind of stupid point is that.

Lebron James took years to develop? He came in and made a perennial bottom feeding team one of the best teams in the league just by himself. Dwight Howard took years to develop?

It's such a silly argument. Where is the instant impact from Evan Turner? One of the most heralded college players and played 3 years in college? Yet he looks like a major project in the NBA.

 

[Cheesewater]

Name one out of college. What a stupid argument.

Rookies aren't supposed to be MVPs. What kind of stupid point is that.

I'll give you two. Wilt Chamberlain and Wes Unseld.

 

[slinslin]

I'll give you two. Wilt Chamberlain and Wes Unseld.

Must have been the college experience... wonder why it hasn't happened since 1968..

Chamberlain wasn't even drafted under modern draft rules. He was a "territorial draft pick" and played for the Harlem Globetrotters before.

You are nuts if you think that if a rookie Lebron James played in the 60s he wouldn't utterly destroy the competition.

 

[Covert Rain]

Whoever says that college lifestyle helps someone grow up faster than professional life can't be serious. Especially for these athletes in college who are already stars, basically stay at home all the time because they are always in the center of attention otherwise and invited to every party.

Way to stereo type. I know lots of people that went to college with the intent of learning skills for their careers. You get out of college what you want. Most of my friends absolutely grew up and became responsible individuals that were committed to applying what they learned much faster as a result of college.

Did they have fun along the way? Yes, it was college but that doesn't mean you don't mature. That doesn't mean you don't learn to be dedicated or develop the drive to become something better.

It absolutely helped them be much more prepared for life than some of my friends that dove head first into careers with college an after thought. Maybe college didn't help you that way but college didn't help you be objective either.

 

[Cheesewater]

Must have been the college experience... wonder why it hasn't happened since 1968..

Chamberlain wasn't even drafted under modern draft rules. He was a "territorial draft pick" and played for the Harlem Globetrotters before.

So you're saying Chamberlain had even MORE experience? Kind of goes against your argument.

 

[slinslin]

Way to stereo type. I know lots of people that went to college with the intent of learning skills for their careers. You get out of college what you want. Most of my friends absolutely grew up and became responsible individuals that were committed to applying what they learned much faster as a result of college.

Did they have fun along the way? Yes, it was college but that doesn't mean you don't mature. That doesn't mean you don't learn to be dedicated or develop the drive to become something better.

It absolutely helped them be much more prepared for life than some of my friends that dove head first into careers with college an after thought. Maybe college didn't help you that way but college didn't help you be objective either.

So? Many of the top-tier highschool players do NOT want to go to college in the first place.

The whole "education" argument is just fake. As if these highly recruited highschool players are lured with education.

They are asked to attend the easiest classes, they do the absolute minimum. It has nothing to do with education.

Also nobody prohibits those that want to go to college to go. It just doesn't make sense to enforce a 3 year removed from highschool limit on players like Lebron James, Dwight Howard or Amare Stoudemire. It's just stupid.

 

[elindholm]

Slinslin, you can't figure out what you're arguing. Obviously the biggest talents are going to try to come out more quickly. These days, if someone stays in school for three or four years, it's only because he doesn't think he's ready to be a high lottery pick before then. So yes, of course, the straight-from-high-school crowd is going to be a better crop than the whole population.

The question is whether a year or two in college would have helped those high school rookies. There's no way to know that, because we can't compare the actual LeBron James with a LeBron James who went to college for a while first. For that matter, we also can't compare the actual Kevin Durant with a Kevin Durant who came straight from high school, because the rule was different for him. Both players entered the league as quickly as they could, and if the rule had required each of them to stay in college for three years, then each of them would have stayed in college for three years.

Circumstantial evidence suggests that coming straight from high school doesn't do players any favors except in the pocketbook. As we've already discussed, only two (Stoudemire and James) won Rookie of the Year. Bryant, McGrady, Howard, and the others who became All-Stars needed some seasoning first: they entered the league behind the curve.

Both Stoudemire and James have had their own issues which could well be related to turning pro too soon, although it's impossible to say for sure. Stoudemire has been hurt a lot. The eye thing was a fluke, but maybe some time in college would have taught him how to take better care of his knees and back. He almost certainly would have gotten some training in defense and boxing out, which he still lacks, and which will probably prevent him from reaching his potential as a player. As for James -- who is now 26, by the way, and has been in the league for eight seasons, so no longer exactly a youngster -- his continued immaturity is obvious, he has shown almost no leadership in the playoffs, and he still hasn't figured out that NBA games are about more than how good he can make himself look. Would some time in college have helped him? It seems like a distinct possibility.

The only two high-school players who have gone on to become stars on championship teams are Bryant and Garnett. Bryant is the son of an NBA player and grew up in Europe, so he is a special case in every possible sense. Garnett was like James for most of his career, failing to show real leadership in the playoffs and wearing out his welcome with each new teammate within a couple of years. Finally he lucked into the situation in Boston, but does one title as a second fiddle really count him as a success story for the high-school group?

It simply isn't possible to argue that coming to the league straight from high school was better for the players who did it. Sure, they may have dodged a career-ending injury, but that scenario is not enough by itself to justify the policy. Other than that, as a group, their careers have been plagued by underachievement, immaturity, selfishness, and -- except for Bryant, who really is in a class by himself -- a grand total of one championship ring.

 

[Covert Rain]

The whole "education" argument is just fake. As if these highly recruited highschool players are lured with education.

They are asked to attend the easiest classes, they do the absolute minimum. It has nothing to do with education.

Again, stereo typing. What your saying it total B.S. Does it happen? Ofcourse but there are plenty of high school kids that get recruited and go on to graduate with quality educations in college.

I know several.

 

[slinslin]

Way to stereo type. I know lots of people that went to college with the intent of learning skills for their careers.

The career of top-tier basketball prospects is basketball and not some fake educational classes.

You get out of college what you want. Most of my friends absolutely grew up and became responsible individuals that were committed to applying what they learned much faster as a result of college.

And where is the proof that it was college that made them grow up?

Did they have fun along the way? Yes, it was college but that doesn't mean you don't mature. That doesn't mean you don't learn to be dedicated or develop the drive to become something better.

Again.. it seems to me you are describing just a general maturing process as someone gets older. Still it always depends on the person and not whether they go to college or not. Matt Leinart, Eddie Griffin, Pacman Jones etc etc..

You won't change my opinion that nothing makes you mature faster than professional life. If you want to play that card I'd advise all of the top highschool prospects to sign pro contracts with European teams and put a NBA clause into it.

There they can fully concentrate on their basketball careers and surely are forced to grow up much faster, competing for playing time against older players in a foreign country away from home.

It absolutely helped them be much more prepared for life than some of my friends that dove head first into careers with college an after thought. Maybe college didn't help you that way but college didn't help you be objective either.

How do geography classes prepare you for life? College attempts to do one thing teach you knowledge that helps you find a job. (And most companies I know of will tell you that most graduates are not at all prepared for the jobs they get but instead learn while on the job)
It doesn't teach you to be mature or how to use your money.

 

[Cheesewater]

Lebron James took years to develop? He came in and made a perennial bottom feeding team one of the best teams in the league just by himself. Dwight Howard took years to develop?

We're talking about a one or two year waiting period, right? The Cavaliers were 34-47 in James' rookie season. 40-42 his second season. They didn't really get good until James' 4th year. Hardly taking them right to the top of the NBA as an 18 year old. Same with Howard: 2005 36-46, 2006 36-46, 2007 40-42...

 

[Covert Rain]

The career of top-tier basketball prospects is basketball and not some fake educational classes.

Where is your proof that most athletes take fake classes? Oh..that's right...you don't like to provide proof? I can admit there are some athletes that skirt the system. There are also those that take full advantage of getting a degree.

Just because you say so....doesn't make it so. If that was the case Lopez would be a star.

And where is the proof that it was college that made them grow up?

Where is the proof that it didn't? You make the stupidest arguments.

And most companies I know of will tell you that most graduates are not at all prepared for the jobs they get but instead learn while on the job)

And???? Those same companies will also tell you that they prefer to hire people with degrees in the field because they are much more prepared than people that are not.

The average company spends between 15 to 20 thousand in training expenses per new hire. I can tell you as having played both the manager and recruiter roles at one point in my career that the success rate of college graduates is much higher than those without one.

Again, very stupid point. Anybody you hire will get "on the job training" since no two jobs are alike regardless if you went to college or not. It's which one learns faster and becomes are higher quality employee is what matters.

 

[slinslin]

Again, stereo typing. What your saying it total B.S. Does it happen? Ofcourse but there are plenty of high school kids that get recruited and go on to graduate with quality educations in college.

I know several.

I never said that players who want to go to college shouldn't. It is pointless to force the ones who don't want to go to college to have to go.

And Eric, you can't seriously tell me that a basketball prospect develops better playing college basketball under different rules, in limited practice time compared to being able to fully dedicate themselves to basketball under the best professional conditions in the NBA against better players.

There is just no way that Lebron James with 3 years of college experience is a better and more mature player than Lebron James with 3 years of professional experience. Just NO WAY, he might be better than Lebron James as a rookie but you also made him waste 3 years of his professional career for an education he doesn't need and probably doesn't want.

 

[slinslin]

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/columns/story?columnist=forde_pat&id=6407176

Some excerpts from the article. And everyone who thinks this is just a single case is just naive. It is like that or similiar with many of the top recruits.
The education is just a token argument and worth nothing in many cases. As if those universities recruit these guys with the thought of making sure they get a good education and work hard in the classroom.

It was, all things considered, a failure for every involved party. But the purpose here is not to rip Selby or Kansas. It's to rip the system.

The only reason Josh Selby was ever a college student was because the NBA's age minimum of 19 forced him to be one. According to media reports, he spent time in high school driving an acquaintance's Mercedes-Benz -- and he'll be able to get his own Benz soon enough. But in between he had to go through the mandated higher-education charade.

And now it's highly likely that Selby will be drafted lower this year than he would have been last June.

Let's face it: The past year was largely a waste of Selby's time and KU's effort. The school's basketball staff, academic support staff and compliance staff spent an enormous amount of manpower on getting the guard from Baltimore eligible. Part of it was an undertaking to determine his amateur status, but a bigger part was fighting for his academic credentials to be accepted.

He broke his hand shortly after arriving in Lawrence last summer. Then, after starting practice with the team, he became entangled in a protracted eligibility struggle that dragged on nearly forever. When it was finally settled, Selby was docked nine games and made to sit out 10 practices to make up for ones he'd participated in while technically ineligible.

Still, the kid was set on testing the waters. He grew up in a stereotypical urban nightmare -- violence, drugs, poverty, an unstable family situation and academic struggle was his childhood context. Nobody can blame Selby for jumping at the first available chance at a better life.

So after spending time in Vegas working out, Selby was set to go pro. There has been no looking back. He still hasn't returned to Lawrence and still hasn't talked to Self, although the coach said he has spoken several times with Selby's mother.

Selby's failure to finish the spring semester should theoretically hurt the program's Academic Progress Rating, but Self was quoted as saying at the time of Selby's announcement that he "worked with his professors to complete his work for the second semester."

If that's true -- that a borderline student out of high school was able to finish his semester's work weeks ahead of time without attending class -- then every degree the school has ever granted has been cheapened. But that's just part of what makes the Selby story a sorry one.

That's true, because then Selby probably would be drafted in the lottery -- where he likely would have been taken last year out of high school. But that was never an option, necessitating a charade of a year in college.