2011 Draft Thread

[slinslin]

There is only downside. Players who have grown up in ghettos and have no business academically to go to college and could straight go to the NBA to earn a living are forced to go to college where they get ZERO and face risk of suffering career ending injuries.

Imagine Amare had to go to college for 3-4 years with his family circumstances and then blows out his knee before he can enter the draft. It is just absolutely ridiculous.

Also you did not address the point that the best nba players have made the jump straight from highschool and won ROY against these "mature" college players. Kobe, TMac, Amare, Howard, Lebron etc..

 

[elindholm]

Also you did not address the point that the best nba players have made the jump straight from highschool and won ROY against these "mature" college players. Kobe, TMac, Amare, Howard, Lebron etc..

There's no need to address a point that is false. Of those players, only Stoudemire and James won ROY. The rest didn't, precisely because they were outclassed by more mature rookies in their first seasons.

 

[AzStevenCal]

There is only downside. Players who have grown up in ghettos and have no business academically to go to college and could straight go to the NBA to earn a living are forced to go to college where they get ZERO and face risk of suffering career ending injuries.

Imagine Amare had to go to college for 3-4 years with his family circumstances and then blows out his knee before he can enter the draft. It is just absolutely ridiculous.

Also you did not address the point that the best nba players have made the jump straight from highschool and won ROY against these "mature" college players. Kobe, TMac, Amare, Howard, Lebron etc..

Well, I agree with part of what you're saying. I think it's absurd to force them to go to college. If the NBA is serious about protecting both their product and the "too young for the NBA" players they need to make their developmental league a more viable option. The NBDL should be a year long training league that includes a stipend sufficient for a decent life but make the education of basketball their full time job. Or, the NBA needs to reach an agreement with the NCAA where the facade of education is lifted where appropriate.

Let them go to college and learn basic life skills that they'll need in the NBA or overseas but do away with their responsibility to be college students. Those kids that want to get an education can accept that responsibility (and be held to that standard) but the others should be exempted from it. Give them one year's credit for each season they are on the team (with an extra year for the 3rd year) and allow them to collect on the educational aspect at any point in their life. That way, you're not forcing kids to go to college that may not be prepared for it but you're not denying them this education if their career plans fall through.

Steve

 

[JCSunsfan]

So you make him waste 3 years in college which is just a charade for the NCAA to make money off of these kids?

As if that is going to make him any more mature.

At 18 you are either mature or not, 3 years of college basketball and college parties won't change your personality. As if all college juniors are mature.

The NBAs best players have come straight out of highschool. As if that has anything to do with the quality of play in the NBA.

No to mention the NCAA rules aren't even the same as they are in the NBA.

The argument demeans the value of a college education. That education is usually worth somewhere between $150,000 and $200,000 in real dollars in todays world. And that is just monetary value. The value of the wisdom, experience, and maturity go well beyond that. The vast majority of the students who receive those scholarships have no hope of going on to professional sports, even in the most prestigious programs in the country. The dollars produced by those programs allow large numbers of students to get an education who could not otherwise do so.

And yes, there is a huge difference in maturity between and 18 year old and a 21 year old. I have been teaching on the college and grad level for 23 years. The difference between teaching college freshmen and seniors is huge.

It is in the NBA's interest not to create a situation in which it abuses its most valuable resource--its players. It is in the players best interest as well.

 

[JCSunsfan]

There is only downside. Players who have grown up in ghettos and have no business academically to go to college and could straight go to the NBA to earn a living are forced to go to college where they get ZERO and face risk of suffering career ending injuries.

Imagine Amare had to go to college for 3-4 years with his family circumstances and then blows out his knee before he can enter the draft. It is just absolutely ridiculous.

Also you did not address the point that the best nba players have made the jump straight from highschool and won ROY against these "mature" college players. Kobe, TMac, Amare, Howard, Lebron etc..

I imagine that Amare would have been a more mature and responsible person. His body would have been able to mature without the wear and tear of huge nba bodies beating against him night after night. Instead of an 82 game schedule, he would have played 30 as a 19 year old and might not have had to undergo microfracture so early in his career.

Yes, he might have made somewhat less money in his career, but with a quality education, he might actually have learned how to make what he does earn last a lifetime.

 

[Mainstreet]

Better come up with a better argument than hypocrisy. I used to think this when i was 18. Now i am the father of kids 23, 21, and 18. The surest way to destroy an 18 year old ia to put millions of dollars on his hands with no accountability. If he does not destroy himself, the agents and posses will do it for him. Plus there is thw physical toll on q young maturing body. The hypocrisy argument does not hold water.

I do not understand your logic if you think 17 and 18 year old youth are capable of taking the physical and mental fatigue of going to war and even dying, but they are not capable of learning how to handle money at age 18. However, forget this hypocrisy (yes I said hypocrisy again), I'm just making the argument youth of age 18 should have the right to hold a job, including a job as a player in the NBA.

Postscript: Nothing personal. I understand your thought process. In a perfect world adulthood might be delayed until age 21, however, we know that is not going to happen.

 

[Mainstreet]

You're right. While we're at it, we should let 18-year-olds run for President too. It's only logical that one should reach full adulthood in all possible facets of one's personality, for all possible applications, at exactly the same age.

I agree with this line of thinking if we are drawing a line when a person becomes an adult and the responsibility that comes with it.

 

[slinslin]

I imagine that Amare would have been a more mature and responsible person. His body would have been able to mature without the wear and tear of huge nba bodies beating against him night after night. Instead of an 82 game schedule, he would have played 30 as a 19 year old and might not have had to undergo microfracture so early in his career.

Yes, he might have made somewhat less money in his career, but with a quality education, he might actually have learned how to make what he does earn last a lifetime.

What you fail to realize is that your whole education argument is a bunch of crap.

Many of these players are not prepared for college and not academically good enough to learn anything.

College is just a distraction for them that keeps them from going their path to become a pro basketballer. College is not good for everyone.

And to think that NBA prospect actually get valueable education in college is a joke. Most of them are made to attend the easiest classes and really don't learn anything.

The NCAA is just exploiting those kids basketball talents and makes millions off of them.

The only answer to a higher age limit can be to go play professional basketball in Europe for 3-4 years before going to the NBA.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

What you fail to realize is that your whole education argument is a bunch of crap.

Many of these players are not prepared for college and not academically good enough to learn anything.

College is just a distraction for them that keeps them from going their path to become a pro basketballer. College is not good for everyone.

And to think that NBA prospect actually get valueable education in college is a joke. Most of them are made to attend the easiest classes and really don't learn anything.

The NCAA is just exploiting those kids basketball talents and makes millions off of them.

The only answer to a higher age limit can be to go play professional basketball in Europe for 3-4 years before going to the NBA.

Exactly...quality education? Maybe for the kids that do the actual work for them. That's why the most logical solution is to make the NBDL a more viable alternative.

 

[Bufalay]

The argument demeans the value of a college education. That education is usually worth somewhere between $150,000 and $200,000 in real dollars in todays world.

That's how much an education costs, not how much its worth. It's worth much less than that if you spend all of your time playing basketball and taking wine tasting classes.

 

[BC867]

These same 18 year old kids can go to war in the service of our country but yet they are not old enough to hold a job in the NBA. The same goes to those same young serviceman who can not drink until they are age 21 but they are asked to make life and death judgments in combat. IMO, there is much hypocrisy.

There is another side to that equation. The overwhelming majority of baseball players who are drafted spend a few years in the Minors learning the game, as well as how to cope with celebrity before becoming millionaires. Hopefully gaining the maturity to not fall victim to drugs, groupies, etc.

The NBA sends a high proportion of its draftees directly into that world. College has been, in effect, basketball's Minor Leagues for the high school players or college freshmen who have more natural talent than the rest..

Even a PhD requires a couple of years of post-doc research and slow exposure to teaching in a college classroom before a good university will hire them as an Assistant Prof.

The NBA is headed toward instant gratification. Too much, too soon.

Of course we can cite some excellent NBA stars who went right into the big time from high school. But they were the exceptions to the rule.

College athletics has certainly become as "professional" as the NBA and NFL in many cases. That is because, especially in basketball and football, they fulfill the gap between high school and the pro's. They are the minor leagues.

 

[slinslin]

Those highschool stars were not the exception to the rule.

If you look at the history you will see that those highschool draftpicks had a much higher rate of success than college juniors.

Also nobody can tell me you learn how to be mature, be responsible with money or celebrity status while taking minimum classes at ASU for example and going to college parties every week.

The NFL has a higher age limit because of the physicality and dangers of the game probably but I get the impression that the amount of immature players in the NFL is much much higher than in the NBA.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Also nobody can tell me you learn how to be mature, be responsible with money or celebrity status while taking minimum classes at ASU for example and going to college parties every week..

I guess that depends on which college you attend.

 

[Cheesewater]

Other skills and concepts crucial to success that may develop with age:

Ethics
Teamwork
Psychology
Commitment
Value

Part of the degradation of the sport, at the hands of commerce, is due to the insertion of the letter "I" in the word "team". Kids, with less experience relying on others on the court AND AT HOME, don't develop a sense of commitment necessary to help create a whole that is more than the sum of its parts.

 

[HooverDam]

I can't believe anyone can possibly be against the age limit rule. You can't make the argument that anyone is being denied a living, there's the NBDL and Europe where 18 year olds can go if they happen to come from a background so impoverished that they need to make money for their family.

NBDL players on average make about $35K a year, thats more than a fair wage. In fact its vastly more than what almost every 18 year old in this country makes.

The only problem with the age limit rule is that its only one year. I'd love to see it expanded to two so that players aren't balling on college after a year and are least getting something roughly equivalent to an Associates Degree type education.

If the rule were increased to a two year post HS rule I think it would be great for the league and the NBDL in particular. More players would like opt not to go to college and instead start being paid immediately in the NBDL. This means that league could grow into more of a true minor league, with each team having its own affiliate that it solely controls.

That means they could have players work on specific things, work within their system and philosophies, etc. Also perhaps instead of 'stashing players in Europe" where they may be getting dubious coaching or coached counter to your clubs philosophy, teams would have more control over their player development.

I'd love for instance to see the Suns have their own NBDL team that plays up in Prescott @ Tims Toyota Center, that would be terrific.

 

[slinslin]

So why is it that the top NBA players never were in college?

Also you can't tell me the level of play in the NBA is worse than it was 20 years ago that is just a bunch of ********.

 

[BC867]

So why is it that the top NBA players never were in college?

I see that you live in Germany. Serious question. Is there a national sport to equal NBA/NFL/MLB in the States? Is soccer as big there as it is in other countries in western Europe?

If so, how do they handle it? Do universities offer athletic scholarships to bridge the gap between the 12th grade level and the pro's?

My thought would be that the student-athlete situation in the U.S. is unique compared to the rest of the world. What do you think?

 

[Cheesewater]

So why is it that the top NBA players never were in college?

They took 5, 6, 7 years to mature in the NBA. Name an 18 year old rookie NBA MVP.

Also you can't tell me the level of play in the NBA is worse than it was 20 years ago that is just a bunch of ********.

Individual play is at a higher level. Team play is in the toilet.

 

[Folster]

Charles Barkley brought up a valid point on the Dan Patrick show about how early entrants have an adverse effect on NBA. The draft was designed for the worst teams to get the best players that could come in and were ready to make an immediate impact. The worst teams are still trying to draft the best player, but assessment is based on potential and these players are for the most part unable to come in and lift up a bad team. These teams then spend 3-4 years developing skills that should have been taught in college. When and if the player matures, then his contract is up and is free to sign with another team.

 

[HooverDam]

So why is it that the top NBA players never were in college?

74% of the All NBA players last year had college or international experience before entering the NBA. The vast majority of the top players, and players in general, did have experience other than HS before entering the NBA.

If we also look at last years All Stars (excluding those on the All NBA team who we've already accounted for) 93% had post HS experience before coming to the NBA.

The numbers clearly show that the vast majority of players will benefit from not jumping straight to the NBA, their are exceptions of course, but they are rare.

Also you can't tell me the level of play in the NBA is worse than it was 20 years ago that is just a bunch of ********.

I didn't make that argument, did I? Of course quality of play is better now, we have better training, guys playing from a younger age, vastly more people playing both in the US & internationally, scouting is improving all the time, etc.

However, the 1 (or 2) year rule acts as a protective device for NBA teams. For every LeBron there's a bunch of Sebastin Telfairs who ended up being busts and cost teams a lot of money. Having a player go through either college or a minor league system helps clubs scout them more properly before raining them with gobs of cash and potentially team crippling contracts.

The NBA Rookie salary scale helps a lot in avoiding problems like the NFL has with over paying guys who have never stepped onto the court. However during the HS to the pro days of the 90s/00s teams were making awful picks based on hype and not being able to properly scout players. One could say "Well its those dumb teams fault!" but it also cripples the chance for the fans of that team in that city to ever feel like they're building toward a winner.

I just don't see the downside of the NBDL evolving into a full on AAA type system. Maybe each team could be granted some sort of exception if they happen to get a special LeBron esque player once a decade. Say he has to go to the NBDL for the first half of the season and then they can call him up.

 

[Cheesebeef]

So why is it that the top NBA players never were in college?

9 of 15 players in the NBA's 1st-3rd ALL-NBA teams last year had at least one year of college experience.

 

[slinslin]

That is only because the majority of NBA players didn't jump straight from highschool to pros and there is an age limit in place for a while now..

Poor argument.

 

[slinslin]

I see that you live in Germany. Serious question. Is there a national sport to equal NBA/NFL/MLB in the States? Is soccer as big there as it is in other countries in western Europe?

If so, how do they handle it? Do universities offer athletic scholarships to bridge the gap between the 12th grade level and the pro's?

My thought would be that the student-athlete situation in the U.S. is unique compared to the rest of the world. What do you think?

Eh soccer is bigger in Germany than anything else anywhere, we have the biggest stadiums and most fans. It is easily bigger than the NFL in the US.

Universities have nothing to do with pro sports in europe. Every club has his own youth academy and the pro clubs have their own private schools that combine the training with education from a young age.

German clubs don't really participate in it but English clubs regularly scout and buy young players that are only 12 years old to play in their youth academies.

It often happens that players are talented enough to get minutes in the pro team when they are just 17 years old. They can't sign pro contracts until they turn 18 in Germany however but this is different in other European countries.
Nobody here would understand the idea that someone would not be allowed to play pro soccer if a team thinks he is good enough to play. Let the players decide and the team.

If NBA teams are worried about the age limit I give them one advice. Don't draft those kids so high then.

College players should get paid the NCAA makes billions off of them. The NCAA is such a joke not only do they exploit the players but then they rule them ineligible for taking some money or question their amateur status (Kanter).
What is a player going to do that is ready for the NBA but academically inelligible to go to a good college program? Play junior college ball for 3 years and fall off the radar or be forced to make the jump to another country because he is not free to enter the draft in the US?

 

[slinslin]

2009-10 Tyreke Evans Sacramento
2008-09 Derrick Rose Chicago
2007-08 Kevin Durant Seattle
2006-07 Brandon Roy Portland
-New NBA age limit-
2005-06 Chris Paul New Orleans/Oklahoma City
2004-05 Emeka Okafor Charlotte
2003-04 LeBron James Cleveland
2002-03 Amare Stoudemire Phoenix
2001-02 Pau Gasol Memphis
2000-01 Mike Miller Orlando
1999-00 Elton Brand and Steve Francis Chicago and Houston
1998-99 Vince Carter Toronto
1997-98 Tim Duncan San Antonio
1996-97 Allen Iverson Philadelphia
1995-96 Damon Stoudamire Toronto
-Kevin Garnett Draft-
1994-95 Grant Hill and Jason Kidd Detroit and Dallas
1993-94 Chris Webber Golden State
1992-93 Shaquille O'Neal Orlando
1991-92 Larry Johnson Charlotte
1990-91 Derrick Coleman New Jersey
1989-90 David Robinson San Antonio
1988-89 Mitch Richmond Golden State
1987-88 Mark Jackson New York
1986-87 Chuck Person Indiana
1985-86 Patrick Ewing New York
1984-85 Michael Jordan Chicago
1983-84 Ralph Sampson Houston
1982-83 Terry Cummings San Diego
1981-82 Buck Williams New Jersey
1980-81 Darrell Griffith Utah
1979-80 Larry Bird Boston

I really doubt that the ROY winners in the highschool to pro era have been any worse than the ROY winners in the year before or after.
Blame the teams that fail at scouting and pick the wrong players in the top 3 not the age limit.
Also 8 teams passed on Amare Stoudemire for foreign players or college players.

Also the argument of high school players leaving their teams before they pay back the investments is just false.

Kevin Garnett was in Minnesota forever and traded
Kobe is still with the Lakers
TMac left Toronto after his rookie season
Lebron left Cleveland after his first big contract
Amare was in Phoenix and left after his first big contract because the Suns did not want to pay him
Dwight Howard also is on Orlando for many years now
JR Smith still on the Nuggets
Josh Smith still on the Nuggets

Kwame Brown, Eddy Curry were simply busts and never turned the corner really.

Stephen Jackson was a 2nd round pick
Monta Ellis was also a 2nd round pick and is still with the team that drafted him

Tyson Chandler was traded multiple times

I don't really see the argument of highschool players leaving their teams before they contribute. It is no different from teams that draft junior or seniors.

 

[Cheesebeef]

That is only because the majority of NBA players didn't jump straight from highschool to pros and there is an age limit in place for a while now..

Poor argument.

who are the best players of the last decade? you know... either guys who led teams to NBA Titles or won MVPs?

Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, Wade, Nash, KG, Ray Allen, Paul Pierce, Dirk, LeBron, Howard... right? Those are arguably the best 11 players of the last decade, no?

So there, you still have 6 guys who had MULTIPLE years of college and 5 guys who didn't... and LeBron and Howard have never won jack squat.

still a poor argument or are you going to narrow the discussion again to not count the guys above also.