2011 Draft Thread

[slinslin]

Huh? Your argument is pointless because you take total numbers. There are only 15 or so NBA players in the NBA that jumped straight from highschool to NBA and 5 of them are the absolute elite.

And what do Ray Allen and Paul Pierce have done to be in one sentence with the others you mentioned? You could have mentioned Jason Kidd instead.

And Nash, Dirk have not won anything either. Lebron and Howard were closer than them and are not even in their prime.

 

[HooverDam]

Also 8 teams passed on Amare Stoudemire for foreign players or college players.

Because teams were starting to become more cautious about HS to pro players that absolute locks. Amar'e panned out well but he was raw, even in his ROY campaign. Additionally he came from a pretty rough background and it was no guarantee he'd keep his head on straight.

Do you agree or disagree with the idea that having players play a year in the NBDL, NCAA or Internationally allows teams to scout them more accurately and see them against a higher level of competition?

 

[slinslin]

Because teams were starting to become more cautious about HS to pro players that absolute locks. Amar'e panned out well but he was raw, even in his ROY campaign. Additionally he came from a pretty rough background and it was no guarantee he'd keep his head on straight.

Do you agree or disagree with the idea that having players play a year in the NBDL, NCAA or Internationally allows teams to scout them more accurately and see them against a higher level of competition?

Did you look at Earl Clark? He was in college for 3 years and he was still raw.

And yeah he came from a rough background so what is better for him? Put him in a NBA situation where he has regular practice and a team taking care of him and putting money in his pocket to help his family or force him to go to a college situation for 3 years with some token classes, fewer practice and much more time to party and do stupid stuff?

This must be the first conversation I had when people are trying to explain to me that college life teaches responsibility.

I don't know what you want to point out with the scouting argument because highschool players are highly scouted and in the past the success rate has definitely been higher than for players drafted from colleges.

Years of scouting did not prevent the Bobcats from drafting Adam Morrison.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Huh? Your argument is pointless because you take total numbers. There are only 15 or so NBA players in the NBA that jumped straight from highschool to NBA and 5 of them are the absolute elite.

yeah, this number's COMPLETELY wrong. 39 players jumped from HS to the pros... and in your words, FIVE of them have been elite.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_high_school_draftees

And what do Ray Allen and Paul Pierce have done to be in one sentence with the others you mentioned? You could have mentioned Jason Kidd instead.

okay... Jason Kidd played two years also. you trying to strengthen my argument?

And Nash, Dirk have not won anything either. Lebron and Howard were closer than them and are not even in their prime.

how have LeBron or Howard gotten closer than Dirk? And what i said was all those guys either won titles or MVPs... you do remember that Nash won two MVPs and has been looked at as one of the best players of the last ten years, right? you're not seriously arguing that point are you?

 

[JCSunsfan]

The overall play of the NBA AND college would be better, and the players would benefit long term if there were a higher age limit. Right now, teams draft the HSers and the one-and-doners because they cannot afford to miss the opportunity to tie up star talent.

If the NBA made a rule that players under a certain age could only play in the developmental league, even if drafted out of high school, teams would be less likely to tie up rookie cap money like that and players would be more likely to go to college where the education is possible and the exposure is greater.

Also, players who cannot academically cut college would have an option. It would be like baseball.

 

[slinslin]

Nash is an incredibly bad example anyway. He was drafted by the Suns. Barely did anything was traded away still took years to develop before he really did anything of notice in the NBA.

How have Lebron and Howard come closer? How about they lead their teams to the finals with not much talent around them? Something Nash has not done.

 

[Cheesebeef]

bottom line Slin, you said "the top players in the NBA NEVER played college" which is completely untrue. 5 of the top players in the NBA never played college... but the overwhelming majority of the top players actually have played college ball... regardless of whatever asteriks you want to put next to your original thesis statement which has no basis in fact.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Nash is an incredibly bad example anyway. He was drafted by the Suns. Barely did anything was traded away still took years to develop before he really did anything of notice in the NBA.

How have Lebron and Howard come closer? How about they lead their teams to the finals with not much talent around them? Something Nash has not done.

that's why I specifically asked how LeBron and Howard have come closer than DIRK. You said they've both gotten closer than "them" implying both Nash and Dirk. So, I asked how they got closer than Dirk... which you didn't answer. And why i said Nash was in the list because he was a multiple MVP winner.

and please on LeBron leading a team to the Finals... the East was ATROCIOUS. He beat a 51 win broken down Pistons team that was starting Chris Webber at C. Dude's done nothing more than Nash has at this point in his career.

 

[Cheesewater]

I just looked at that list of 39 high schoolers drafted...yech. That list alone should be proof that an age limit is a good idea.

Jonathan Bender?
Robert Swift?
Darius Miles?
Kwame Brown?
Eddy Curry?


I can see about 12 guys on that list worth drafting in the first 2 rounds. All twelve of them would have benefitted from NBDL or college experience.

 

[slinslin]

bottom line Slin, you said "the top players in the NBA NEVER played college" which is completely untrue. 5 of the top players in the NBA never played college... but the overwhelming majority of the top players actually have played college ball... regardless of whatever asteriks you want to put next to your original thesis statement which has no basis in fact.

And I would say the top players of the last decade were Dight Howard, Kobe Bryant, Tracy McGrady, Kevin Garnett, Tim Duncan, Steve Nash, Dirk Nowitzki, Jason Kidd, Dwyane Wade, Lebron James, Amare Stoudemire (before microfracture), Carmelo Anthony and Shaq.

Kobe, TMac, Amare, Lebron, Dwight, KG, Dirk - 0 years of NCAA
Carmelo - 1 year
Wade, Kidd - 2 years
Shaq - 3 years
Duncan, Nash - 4 years

The latest stars are all one and done players.. Rose, Durant, Evans, Wall.. Oden if not for injuries. And all of them would have been drafted out of highschool as well with success.
Blake Griffin and Russell Westbrook both 2 years.

I just looked at that list of 39 high schoolers drafted...yech. That list alone should be proof that an age limit is a good idea.

Jonathan Bender?
Robert Swift?
Darius Miles?
Kwame Brown?
Eddy Curry?


I can see about 12 guys on that list worth drafting in the first 2 rounds. All twelve of them would have benefitted from NBDL or college experience.

Here is a list of NBA players that were drafted out of highschool in the top 20 picks.


1975 1 5 Darryl Dawkins C United States Philadelphia 76ers Maynard Evans High School (Orlando, Florida) [26]
1995 1 5 Kevin Garnett* F United States Minnesota Timberwolves Farragut Career Academy (Chicago, Illinois) [28]
1996 1 13 Kobe Bryant* G United States Charlotte Hornets Lower Merion High School (Ardmore, Pennsylvania) [29]
1996 1 17 Jermaine O'Neal* F/C United States Portland Trail Blazers Eau Claire High School (Columbia, South Carolina) [30]
1997 1 9 Tracy McGrady* F United States Toronto Raptors Mount Zion Christian Academy (Durham, North Carolina) [31]
1999 1 5 Jonathan Bender F United States Toronto Raptors Picayune Memorial High School (Picayune, Mississippi) [35]
2000 1 3 Darius Miles F United States Los Angeles Clippers East St. Louis High School (East St. Louis, Illinois) [37]
2001 1 1 Kwame Brown F United States Washington Wizards Glynn Academy (Brunswick, Georgia) [39]
2001 1 2 Tyson Chandler C United States Los Angeles Clippers Dominguez High School (Compton, California) [40]
2001 1 4 Eddy Curry C United States Chicago Bulls Thornwood High School (South Holland, Illinois) [41]
2001 1 8 DeSagana Diop C Senegal Cleveland Cavaliers Oak Hill Academy (Mouth of Wilson, Virginia) [42]
2002 1 9 Amar'e Stoudemire* F/C United States Phoenix Suns Cypress Creek High School (Orlando, Florida) [44]
2003 1 1 LeBron James* F United States Cleveland Cavaliers St. Vincent – St. Mary High School (Akron, Ohio) [45]
2004 1 1 Dwight Howard* F/C United States Orlando Magic Southwest Atlanta Christian Academy (Atlanta, Georgia) [50]
2004 1 4 Shaun Livingston G United States Los Angeles Clippers Peoria High School (Peoria, Illinois) [51]
2004 1 12 Robert Swift C United States Seattle SuperSonics Bakersfield High School (Bakersfield, California) [52]
2004 1 13 Sebastian Telfair G United States Portland Trail Blazers Abraham Lincoln High School (Brooklyn, New York) [53]
2004 1 15 Al Jefferson F United States Boston Celtics Prentiss High School (Prentiss, Mississippi) [54]
2004 1 17 Josh Smith F United States Atlanta Hawks Oak Hill Academy (Mouth of Wilson, Virginia) [55]
2004 1 18 J. R. Smith G United States New Orleans Hornets Saint Benedict's Preparatory School (Newark, New Jersey) [56]
2004 1 19 Dorell Wright G/F United States Miami Heat South Kent Preparatory School (South Kent, Connecticut) [57][58]
2005 1 6 Martell Webster G/F United States Portland Trail Blazers Seattle Preparatory School (Seattle, Washington) [59]
2005 1 10 Andrew Bynum C United States Los Angeles Lakers St. Joseph High School (Metuchen, New Jersey) [60]
2005 1 18 Gerald Green F United States Boston C

24 players
6 super stars KG, Kobe, TMac, Lebron, Howard, Amare (pre injury)
2 allstars O'Neal, Smith
3 borderline allstar Bynum, Dawkins, Jefferson
3 good role players Wright, Smith, Chandler
4 role players Webster, Brown, Telfair, Diop
3 injury lost careers Miles, Livingston, Bender
3 busts Green, Swift, Curry

Monta Ellis and Rashard Lewis were 2nd round picks.

That is an incredibly good record for drafting highschoolers. You act like there are no Gerald Greens, Robert Swifts or Eddy Currys coming out of college. I can name so many BUSTS that were drafted in the lottery who went to college.. Adam Morrison, Michael Olowokandi, Stromile Swift, Eddie Griffin heck the list is endless and I bet you you won't find 2 superstars per college bust.

Even if you say that based on how high they were drafted that Brown, Diop and Webster are busts. At least they are still in the league and get contracts, but even then the drafting record for highschoolers is very good.

 

[Cheesewater]

Here is a list of NBA players that were drafted out of highschool in the top 20 picks.

Monta Ellis and Rashard Lewis were 2nd round picks.

You can't stop at top 20 picks and then include the two second round successes.

 

[slinslin]

Bottom line to me is that if you raise the age limit you have to change the NCAA rules.

Adapt NBA rules and pay the players, Coach K and Roy Williams etc make a fortune coaching these players. Only the players get nothing for risking injuries and entertaining people.

Bad player are bad players. College or no college. Playing 3 years of college basketball doesn't reduce the number of busts in the draft. Just like immature players are immature regardless of whether they go to college or not.

 

[Cheesewater]

3 injury lost careers Miles, Livingston, Bender

Playing in college with appropriate workouts and skilled trainers may have prevented these injuries, or provided for more sucessful recoveries.

 

[Cheesebeef]

And I would say the top players of the last decade were Dight Howard, Kobe Bryant, Tracy McGrady, Kevin Garnett, Tim Duncan, Steve Nash, Dirk Nowitzki, Jason Kidd, Dwyane Wade, Lebron James, Amare Stoudemire (before microfracture), Carmelo Anthony and Shaq.

uh, sorry, but if TMac and Amare end up in this group, you've got to put Vince Carter (2 years), Chris Paul (two years) and Deron Williams (3 Years) up there as well.

Kobe, TMac, Amare, Lebron, Dwight, KG, Dirk - 0 years of NCAA
Carmelo - 1 year
Wade, Kidd, Carter, Paul - 2 years
Shaq, Williams - 3 years
Duncan, Nash - 4 years

that's what that should look like. So, you have 7 HSers versus 9 guys who played college ball. substantial college ball.

And you're gonna include Kidd, shouldn't you also include Webber and Grant Hill (both of whom were all world before injuries destroyed their careers)? Yeah, there's another two guys with a combined SIX YEARS OF COLLEGE.

The latest stars are all one and done players.. Rose, Durant, Evans, Wall.. Oden if not for injuries.

Wall, Oden and Evans... are STARS?! Give me a break... and apparently not ALL are one and done players considering you just listed Griffin and Westbrook below.

And all of them would have been drafted out of highschool as well with success.
Blake Griffin and Russell Westbrook both 2 years.

then why didn't these guys come out after one year?

 

[Cheesebeef]

Playing in college with appropriate workouts and skilled trainers may have prevented these injuries, or provided for more sucessful recoveries.

especially considering that the biggest concerns on Livingston and Bender was that they might not be physically ready for the NBA and surprise, surprise... THEY WEREN'T!

 

[Cheesebeef]

You can't stop at top 20 picks and then include the two second round successes.

if you're slin, you can do whatever you want to cherry pick examples that only back up your point!

 

[JCSunsfan]

Bottom line to me is that if you raise the age limit you have to change the NCAA rules.

Adapt NBA rules and pay the players, Coach K and Roy Williams etc make a fortune coaching these players. Only the players get nothing for risking injuries and entertaining people.

Bad player are bad players. College or no college. Playing 3 years of college basketball doesn't reduce the number of busts in the draft. Just like immature players are immature regardless of whether they go to college or not.

You do not have to change NCAA rules, just offer the NBDL as the alternative.

Some HSers that ended up as bad players, might well have ended up as much better players with more incremental development. This is just a proven educational principle.

 

[slinslin]

And college would have changed that? Because all college players are physically developed?...
Yeah clearly college workouts and college trainers are going to be more helpful than pro workouts, pro trainers and full concentration on basketball.

Especially Shaun Livingston was a freak injury.

Greg Oden, Blake Griffin, Penny Hardaway

Non-sense..

 

[Cheesewater]

Regarding Nowitzki, wasn't he 20 years old when he was drafted in the NBA? Didn't he play with some German club for awhile first?

 

[slinslin]

that's what that should look like. So, you have 7 HSers versus 9 guys who played college ball. substantial college ball.

And don't you realize that it is 7 out of 24 compared to 9 out of 200?

 

[JCSunsfan]

And college would have changed that? Because all college players are physically developed?...
Yeah clearly college workouts and college trainers are going to be more helpful than pro workouts, pro trainers and full concentration on basketball.

Non-sense..

Who would you want developing your youngster--Coach K or Mike DAntoni?

It is nonsense only to you.

 

[slinslin]

Who would you want developing your youngster--Coach K or Mike DAntoni?

It is nonsense only to you.

Because every prospect under Coach K turns into gold?

Duke is one of the better examples of players that were drafted and turned out to perform way below expectations.

 

[Cheesewater]

And don't you realize that it is 7 out of 24 compared to 9 out of 200?

It's 39 or 42. It's NOT 24.

 

[slinslin]

It's 39 or 42. It's NOT 24.

Charles Barkley brought up a valid point on the Dan Patrick show about how early entrants have an adverse effect on NBA. The draft was designed for the worst teams to get the best players that could come in and were ready to make an immediate impact. The worst teams are still trying to draft the best player, but assessment is based on potential and these players are for the most part unable to come in and lift up a bad team. These teams then spend 3-4 years developing skills that should have been taught in college. When and if the player matures, then his contract is up and is free to sign with another team.

Nobody cares about the 2nd round in this conversation. The 2nd round picks are not investments of lottery teams that try to get better.

It's an entirely different argument.

But even if you include those it is still no comparison. Then it is 7 out of 50 compared to 9 out of 800..

 

[Cheesebeef]

And don't you realize that it is 7 out of 24 compared to 9 out of 200?

uh slin, you're argument was that the best players NEVER played college ball. you were wrong. that's what i was arguing.

and Dirk was 20 years old. that's another in favor of older guys who are the stars in this league... and Pau's probably up there as well... and he was 21.

bottom line, the statement that the best players in this league NEVER played college (or could have come straight from HS at 18) is really complete and utter nonsense.