2011 NBA FINALS: Dallas Mavericks Vs Miami Heat

[AfroSuns]

Great game. Wade is the bigger superstar on this team IMO...so far. There is no doubt who's team this is IMO. Wade to me just has that something that LeBron is missing.

I completely agree. It is so obvious without Wade's mental toughness the Heat don't win tonight game, which is arguably their most important game in the playoffs.

 

[cly2tw]

Its not even debatable that individually Lebron is viewed by people who actually watch basketball day in and day out as the best player in the league or the first guy you would take if you were building a team. Thats GMs, Thats announcers, thats players. Thats everyone.

LBJ is the best all-around player. However, if you have the choice of a tandem of stars to build a champion team around, I'd not say LJB + player A is better than Wade + player A, say player A being Bosh or Amare.

 

[Gee!]

LBJ is the best all-around player. However, if you have the choice of a tandem of stars to build a champion team around, I'd not say LJB + player A is better than Wade + player A, say player A being Bosh or Amare.

Youd rather have Wade and Amare rather than LBJ and Wade? Woooow.. Amare? The same Amare who doesnt play D? If it was Amare and Wade then the Heat wouldnt be in the Finals.. The Heat have used D and really clamp down on 4th qtr D to get here.. These things are Amares weaknessess..

 

[Bufalay]

Youd rather have Wade and Amare rather than LBJ and Wade? Woooow.. Amare? The same Amare who doesnt play D? If it was Amare and Wade then the Heat wouldnt be in the Finals.. The Heat have used D and really clamp down on 4th qtr D to get here.. These things are Amares weaknessess..

No, he'd rather have Lebron+Amare than Wade+Amare.

 

[Covert Rain]

No, he'd rather have Lebron+Amare than Wade+Amare.

I agree with this take. It's not that Lebron isn't a great player. How many times in other sports have you seen dominate players that people don't consider winners or are not considered to have "it"...whatever that might be.

That is sort of how I feel about LeBron. When the game is on the line, I would take Wade over LeBron. Wade has that closer mentality. He seems to thrive when things are on the line and his back is to the wall. I have seen flashes of this out of LeBron but not to the extent that I would take him over Wade or Kobe with the last shot of the game. That has always been my problem with LeBron even when they were comparing him to Kobe.

 

[TJ]

The best comparison for James, so far, is Shaquille O'Neal. Both have (or had) physical gifts that put them in a completely different category from the rest of the elite athletes in the NBA. Both have gregarious personalities, but also deep insecurities that rear their heads at inopportune times. Both were sensations upon entering the league, and each had a forgettable Finals appearance early in his career before leaving his original team for brighter lights. Both are questionable with the game on the line: James because he has a tendency to settle for long jumpers and then brick them, and O'Neal because there was always the danger that the other team would make him shoot free throws.

O'Neal wound up with four titles. Each time, he needed to be paired with a quieter, yet more serious superstar teammate (Bryant, Wade) who could do the real work while O'Neal lapped up the media attention. As we know, O'Neal never did the little things to develop his overall game to the point of being commensurate with his physical gifts, but his talent alone was enough to make him a dominant player. He eventually wore out the welcome of the most serious fans of every team he graced with his presence, because while there was no denying his production and results, one could also tell that something was missing. And yet, no one would deny O'Neal his place in the discussion of the "top (small number) players of all time."

And so it is with James. As long as he has someone like Wade to steer the ship for him, he can contribute the highlights and the big numbers and strut around like everything begins and ends with him. And he'll be great, and we'll acknowledge it -- and yet only a few will truly admire what he accomplished in his career, because the rest of us won't be able to shake the thought of how much more he could have done.

I see the similarities as far as their journey in the league, seeing as Shaq left Orlando for greener pastures after not being able to get the title. But there are subtle differences which need to be considered.

There was a rift in Orlando where Shaq was at odds with then coach Brian Hill (allegedly). Also, the local media was saying Shaq was not a good role model. BTW, sounds eerily similar to what Dwight Howard is going through: the media continuously speaking ill of him causing Howard to be frustrated (rightfully so). I don't blame O'Neal for leaving Orlando.

LeBron left Cleveland because the FO wasn't doing enough to put together a solid team around him. IMO, had they kept Boozer and developed him or got a guy like Amare instead of Hughes, an aged Shaq and Jamison, he's still a Cav.

For Shaq, he needed a good sidekick to win a championship, and Nick Anderson wasn't it. Kobe was. So was Wade. But at the same token, when Shaq left the Lakers, so did the chances for them to contend for a championship. They went from tops in the conference to a 7th seed and eventually a lottery team. When Shaq hit Miami, he became a catalyst in their championship journey. When he left, Miami became one of the worst teams in the NBA.

With that said, players like Kobe and Wade needed Shaq just as much as Shaq needed them to win titles. Basketball is still a team sport, despite the fact one player can change the team dynamics. Just like LeBron and other past superstars need other productive players as well. A one-man band like LeBron in Cleveland could only take a team so far before they eventually break down.

In addition, I hate comparing centers to 2s and 3s. Much different responsibilities based on who they guard and what stats they earn. You cant compare O'Neal's rebounds and blocked shots to James and cant compare James' assist and steals to O'Neal. It's why Jordan is rarely paralleled with the likes of Kareem, Russel and Wilt.

Either way, both are going to be first ballot HoFers and considered elite at their position. James is not Jordan by any stretch of the imagination; however, he is still 26 and has a long career ahead of him. If he wins multiple 'ships, that'll help his cause to make a cogent argument for him being Jordan-esq.

 

[desertdawg]

Miami might consider getting a better coach. It's already been said a couple times but it is a real problem when you see the Mavs coach and Wade making the calls and holding his players responsible. I think we will see 4-5 teams build their squads just to take it to Miami.

The Heat's talent is enough to get it done this year, especially with Wade coaching now. Next year homie might want to come down from the office and give the Heat a real coach, or they should hire one. If you can't see the difference between these two coaches, as far as talent and intelligence is concerned, than I'd say go back and watch again.

The are only 2 reasons this series isn't isn't sweeptown, Dirk (who I have to admit, is a manly man) and the Mavs coach. Miami gets schooled on match ups that let the game swing out of their favor, Hasslem has really helped them out and it isn't by their coach's game design. They don't foul when they should, take bad shots when it should be easy for them, basically bad planning at crucial times in the game. Reminds me of Gentry.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

The best comparison for James, so far, is Shaquille O'Neal. Both have (or had) physical gifts that put them in a completely different category from the rest of the elite athletes in the NBA. Both have gregarious personalities, but also deep insecurities that rear their heads at inopportune times. Both were sensations upon entering the league, and each had a forgettable Finals appearance early in his career before leaving his original team for brighter lights. Both are questionable with the game on the line: James because he has a tendency to settle for long jumpers and then brick them, and O'Neal because there was always the danger that the other team would make him shoot free throws.

O'Neal wound up with four titles. Each time, he needed to be paired with a quieter, yet more serious superstar teammate (Bryant, Wade) who could do the real work while O'Neal lapped up the media attention. As we know, O'Neal never did the little things to develop his overall game to the point of being commensurate with his physical gifts, but his talent alone was enough to make him a dominant player. He eventually wore out the welcome of the most serious fans of every team he graced with his presence, because while there was no denying his production and results, one could also tell that something was missing. And yet, no one would deny O'Neal his place in the discussion of the "top (small number) players of all time."

And so it is with James. As long as he has someone like Wade to steer the ship for him, he can contribute the highlights and the big numbers and strut around like everything begins and ends with him. And he'll be great, and we'll acknowledge it -- and yet only a few will truly admire what he accomplished in his career, because the rest of us won't be able to shake the thought of how much more he could have done.

Excellent analogy. Both will be more remembered for their dominance and potential for being the best, then actually reaching those heights, which is why both careers will be looked at as somewhat disappointing. It's not a matter of their accomplishments, but a matter of what they could have done if properly motivated.

 

[Cheesebeef]

The best comparison for James, so far, is Shaquille O'Neal. Both have (or had) physical gifts that put them in a completely different category from the rest of the elite athletes in the NBA. Both have gregarious personalities, but also deep insecurities that rear their heads at inopportune times. Both were sensations upon entering the league, and each had a forgettable Finals appearance early in his career before leaving his original team for brighter lights. Both are questionable with the game on the line: James because he has a tendency to settle for long jumpers and then brick them, and O'Neal because there was always the danger that the other team would make him shoot free throws.

O'Neal wound up with four titles. Each time, he needed to be paired with a quieter, yet more serious superstar teammate (Bryant, Wade) who could do the real work while O'Neal lapped up the media attention. As we know, O'Neal never did the little things to develop his overall game to the point of being commensurate with his physical gifts, but his talent alone was enough to make him a dominant player. He eventually wore out the welcome of the most serious fans of every team he graced with his presence, because while there was no denying his production and results, one could also tell that something was missing. And yet, no one would deny O'Neal his place in the discussion of the "top (small number) players of all time."

And so it is with James. As long as he has someone like Wade to steer the ship for him, he can contribute the highlights and the big numbers and strut around like everything begins and ends with him. And he'll be great, and we'll acknowledge it -- and yet only a few will truly admire what he accomplished in his career, because the rest of us won't be able to shake the thought of how much more he could have done.

i don't think this is totally fair, but I wouldn't disagree with it too much either.

the fact that this guy DOES settle for so many jumpers at the end of games/hasn't developed any kind of post game goes to what you're saying. he's literally an unstoppbale beast who almost seems to stop himself sometimes, whether that be settling for jumpers or not working on his game in the off-season to add anything new to it.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

The best comparison for James, so far, is Shaquille O'Neal. Both have (or had) physical gifts that put them in a completely different category from the rest of the elite athletes in the NBA. Both have gregarious personalities, but also deep insecurities that rear their heads at inopportune times. Both were sensations upon entering the league, and each had a forgettable Finals appearance early in his career before leaving his original team for brighter lights. Both are questionable with the game on the line: James because he has a tendency to settle for long jumpers and then brick them, and O'Neal because there was always the danger that the other team would make him shoot free throws.

O'Neal wound up with four titles. Each time, he needed to be paired with a quieter, yet more serious superstar teammate (Bryant, Wade) who could do the real work while O'Neal lapped up the media attention. As we know, O'Neal never did the little things to develop his overall game to the point of being commensurate with his physical gifts, but his talent alone was enough to make him a dominant player. He eventually wore out the welcome of the most serious fans of every team he graced with his presence, because while there was no denying his production and results, one could also tell that something was missing. And yet, no one would deny O'Neal his place in the discussion of the "top (small number) players of all time."

And so it is with James. As long as he has someone like Wade to steer the ship for him, he can contribute the highlights and the big numbers and strut around like everything begins and ends with him. And he'll be great, and we'll acknowledge it -- and yet only a few will truly admire what he accomplished in his career, because the rest of us won't be able to shake the thought of how much more he could have done.

Now this is a quality original take. I don't agree with it, but I commend you on the analogy and think you made some good points. While I agree both Shaq and Lebron are peerless in the past 10 years when it comes to physical attributes combined with skill there are 3 main reason why I think the comparison is totally off base.

1) Lebron is a team first guy, whereas Shaq has always been a me first guy. As I have mentioned many times in this thread, Lerbron has been univerally lauded as a good teamate and always speaks in terms of the team. As a couple examples when the Heat were struggling to close out games in the regular season, while it was a team wide problem, Lebron took it on his shoulders and how he had to improve. Even last night Lebron never made it about himself and his perfomance even after questions continued to pour in about his lackluster game and instead talked about getting Wade the ball and finding Bosh in his "sweet spot" at the end of the game. Coversely Shaq has feuded with Penny, Kobe, and even Wade throughout his career, talks about himself in the third person, makes up ridiculous nicknames for himself and manufactures rivalries with current players unlike any player I have ever seen. Everywhere he went, other then his last two stops were his skills even eroded beyond his ability to deny, it was about "feeding" him the ball and centering the offense around him. Lebron has never done anything like that and never made it about himself. I am still waiting for someone to show me something that says otherwise, and while someone may dig up something, it would be 1 out of 1000's of things he has said throughout his career. Thats just not his M.O.

2) Not sure the gregarious comparison is there either. Shaq is constantly doing a standup routine during interview, doing stupid stunts like trying to be a cop, and overall is looked at as one of the athletes who is most like the common man. Conversely Lebron gives cliched remarks that produce bad copy, always talks about team and getting better, and never had tried to become some sort of jokester or affable guy. Like everyother great NBA player, Lebron has tons of endorsement deals but you never hear abotu him trying to be a movie star, or rapping, or again trying to become a cop, or trying to get to LA to build on his after basketball career. Hes very much all business. Which brings me to my last point.

3) The reason Lebron has few (if any) glaring flaws in his game is because all he cares about is being the best basketball player he can be. Did you know that in terms of FG% for midrange jumpers this past season, Lebron is third in the league behind two of the best shooters of all time in dirk Nowitzki and Ray Allen? Its true look it up. That wasn't a skill he had when he came into the league. He developed that. And he works constantly at adding things to his game. He has already started to hit 3s at a Superstar level (He was 4-4 in first half of Game 1 IIRC) and he is expanding his post up game and obviously has become one of the best defenders in the league. Thats because all he cares about is what he does. Not if he can secure the starting role in Kazzaam 2.

The comparison is really unfair especially since Lebron James is 26 YEARS OLD and Shaq's career is done. Lebrons story is still unfolding and I would say he has lived up to the immense hype and pressure AND continues to get better. Shaq had a great career but anyone will tell you if he cared a little more, he could have been the best player of all time.

This is my take on why I think Lebron left the Cavs and came to the Heat to play. Here in Miami they make a big deal about how tight Wade and Lebron are and how they became best friends over the Olympics. You can see it on the court and when how they take PC's together as a rule after every game. They are very very close.

I can personally say that getting to do what you love and working with your best friend is an amazing thing. In fact the best man at my wedding and I own a company together and we have done very well, and we didn't just make this decision because we are friends, my boy is an absolute stud in terms of our careers too.

It just happens Lebrons best friend is one of the 2 or 3 best players in the league. So when an opportunity to play together came up it allowed for a) them to be closer then ever b) them being able to combine into one of the winningest forces in NBA history and c) do it in a city in Miamithat is one of the best living spots in the country for a young, rich, african-american.

Everyone else wants to project this Jordan chromosome on all of these players and have them be the greatest player on their own and win multiple titles and want to murder everybody. But those are what YOU think a person should value. Lebron sees an opporunity to a) win big and b) be personally happy. Because that doesnt fit into your MJ prototype he should be villified for making that decision? Its not like he went to play for a bad team and cased out to drink margaritas on Miami Beach. He took LESS money to play with his boy and form potentially one of the best teams of our generation.

I can say obviously I would have made that same choice, and in fact have done that as I have a very successful company with my best friend here in South Florida. So I don't get how people can begrudge the guy of that. His logic is sound and ironically makes MORE sense when you look at it from a human level.

Here is another article saying much of the same of what I have throughout this thread by JA Adande discussing how irrational the Lebron hating national fan base is in their arguments. I don't expect the people who have already made up their mind about Lebron to read it, as they are basing their opinions on emotional assumptions that Lebron is a "bad dude" or poor in the clutch when the cold hard emprical evidence says completely otherwise. I will cut an paste a few of my favorite parts though:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs/2011/columns/story?columnist=adande_ja&page=LeBron-110606

You know what sentence wasn't written anywhere? The indisputable fact that LeBron had a better final minute than Dirk Nowitzki. In their last two possessions, LeBron had an assist and a missed shot, and Dirk had a turnover and a missed shot. As a result, LeBron's team won.

If the Heat didn't win, LeBron would have received the blame, not his supporting cast. We're making Larry Bird comparisons for Nowitzki even though he's ringless, yet are withholding judgment on LeBron until we see how many he wins. There's an even greater status Dirk has achieved: He's allowed to miss. He became sanctified after making that 3-pointer and lefty layup late in Game 2. That's what happens when you have the made shots in the Finals on your résumé.

On the Final assist to Bosh:

"I don't care if he missed 15 in a row, he's wide open and that's his sweet spot, that baseline jumper, and he was able to knock it down," James said. "It's just the trust we have in each other's ability, no matter what point of the game it's at."

Erik Spoelstra called it "fundamental basketball at its best. When you see an open man, you hit an open man."

Here's the paradox of LeBron: He regularly makes the sensible play when it comes to passing, but he doesn't always make the sensible play when it comes to going to the hoop. After making only two trips to the free throw line in Game 2, he vowed to attack the basket more in Game 3 and did exactly that in the first half. Five of his six shots in the first two quarters came from inside the paint, including a memorable initiation to the Finals for Ian Mahinmi. LeBron James going to the hoop is one of the most unstoppable plays in basketball, and yet we rarely see it, and every time he plays a stretch like he did in the first half Sunday, it makes you wonder why.

On fans looking at the last two games but neglecting the bigger picture:

Even with Wade's surge in the Finals, James remains the Heat's playoff leader in points, assists and steals, and is virtually tied with Bosh for top rebounder. None of that seems to matter at the moment. It's as if LeBron's big shots in closing out the Celtics and Bulls didn't get forwarded to his new address at the Finals. He's having to start from scratch, and in this series he has only two fourth-quarter field goals. His numbers from the fourth Sunday night: two points on 1-for-3 shooting, two turnovers, four assists.

People don't step back and view the larger numbers, such as the fact LeBron has logged more minutes -- 790 of 'em -- than anyone in the playoffs. He played 45 minutes on Sunday, his stamina allowing Spoelstra to feel secure enough to sit Wade out three more minutes than he did in Game 2, and Wade was fresh enough to hit a go-ahead jumper with two minutes left.


Anyone think of this? Maybe this Dallas team is a good matchup for Wade? The previous three series against mostly better competition, Lebron completly out played Wade. But now against Dallas - a team Wade has absolute confidence against - Wade is the guy with the better numbers. And you'll notice the Dallas game plan is geared to stop Lebron as the only plus permieter defender they have (Marion) is guarding LBJ whereas the 38 year old Jason Kidd is guarding Wade. Ummm I would hope Wade is leading the team in that scenario.

Thats why they came together to play. And Lebron is good enough to know that and faciliate for D Wade. See his 9 assists last night.

Like JA said. Lebron just can't win.

Only he is going to. And its only going to take 2-3 more games

 

[Covert Rain]

Someone want to summarize the above post? Way too long.

Spotted the word "values" again and much repeated info. I will just say this. Nobody is projecting on LeBron.

He said he wants 7 rings in 10 years to eclipse Jordan. He is the one that wanted to win more rings. He is the one that wants to be the best. LeBron wants to be compared to him or he would not have setup that goal for himself.

It's laughable to say the fans and media are projecting on him. No they are not. They are measuring him against his very goal. If he wants to be considered the best then he should have gone somewhere else instead of playing with one of the most dominate players of this era and who at times was also compared to Jordan in terms of dominance (again, not a direct comparison).

Jordan even questioned LeBrons choice to join Wade. He said being the best is about proving your the best against the best. I couldn't have said it better.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Someone want to summarize the above post? Way too long.

Spotted the word "values" again and much repeated info. I will just say this. Nobody is projecting on LeBron.

He said he wants 7 rings in 10 years to eclipse Jordan. He is the one that wanted to win more rings. He is the one that wants to be the best. LeBron wants to be compared to him or he would not have setup that goal for himself.

It's laughable to say the fans and media are projecting on him. No they are not. They are measuring him against his very goal. If he wants to be considered the best then he should have gone somewhere else instead of playing with one of the most dominate players of this era and who at times was also compared to Jordan in terms of dominance (again, not a direct comparison).

Jordan even questioned LeBrons choice to join Wade. He said being the best is about proving your the best against the best. I couldn't have said it better.

Bro what don't you get about this? I am saying YOU WANT LEBRON TO WANT TO BE BETTER THEN MICHAEL. THATS WHAT YOU THINK HE SHOULD WANT. OBVIOUSLY THATS NOT HIS PRIMARY CONCERN OR HE WOULD HAVE GONE AND BEEN "THE MAN" SOMEWHERE ELSE. WINNING IS MORE IMPORTANT TO HIM THEN RECOGNITION.

HE SAID HE EXPECTS 7 RINGS IN MIAMI. NOT "7 RINGS TO BE BETTER THEN JORDAN". THATS A KOBE TYPE COMMENT.

You get it now? Was that succient enough for you?

We have guys in this thread like TJ, Cheese, Elindholm, Cardsfan88, Dawg, Afro, and Lorenzo actually making good points and you keep dancing around and bringing weak opinions that in no way are responding to the posts in question. You dont even make the time to actually read what is being written and then think people are going to take your opinions seriously? I respect people with different opnions as long as they bring value to the conversation. You just keep spinning around and around and are not even understanding the premise of what I am saying.

Here's an idea: Why don't you sit this one out and let the big boys discuss?

 

[Cheesebeef]

Bro what don't you get about this? I am saying YOU WANT LEBRON TO WANT TO BE BETTER THEN MICHAEL. THATS WHAT YOU THINK HE SHOULD WANT. OBVIOUSLY THATS NOT HIS PRIMARY CONCERN OR HE WOULD HAVE GONE AND BEEN "THE MAN" SOMEWHERE ELSE. WINNING IS MORE IMPORTANT TO HIM THEN RECOGNITION.

HE SAID HE EXPECTS 7 RINGS IN MIAMI. NOT "7 RINGS TO BE BETTER THEN JORDAN". THATS A KOBE TYPE COMMENT.

even if you bolded the above, it still wouldn't make it true. You think he just plucked 7 rings out of thin air? come on man... throwing down the 7 rings gauntlet IS begging for a comparison. Everyone and anyone knows what the magic number to consider yourself the greatest nowadays and everyone knows that number is 6... the number Jordan.

And you say that's a "Kobe Bryant comment"... I don't think kobe has ever made that statement either, specifically targetting Jordan... i actually don't think kobe's ever specifcally stated anything about the number of rings he's had except to say he's got more than shaq.

We have guys in this thread like TJ, Cheese, Elindholm, Cardsfan88, Dawg, Afro, and Lorenzo actually making good points and you keep dancing around and bringing weak opinions that in no way are responding to the posts in question. You dont even make the time to actually read what is being written and then think people are going to take your opinions seriously? I respect people with different opnions as long as they bring value to the conversation. You just keep spinning around and around and are not even understanding the premise of what I am saying.

Here's an idea: Why don't you sit this one out and let the big boys discuss?

this is beyond lame.

 

[Brian in Mesa]

More rings than MJ? Big freaking deal.

Nine players already have more rings than MJ.

 

[Cheesebeef]

More rings than MJ? Big freaking deal.

Seven players already have more rings than MJ.

give me a break. in the modern era, if you're a superstar, leading your team to more rings than MJ is a bench mark whether you like it or not.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

even if you bolded the above, it still wouldn't make it true. You think he just plucked 7 rings out of thin air? come on man... throwing down the 7 rings gauntlet IS begging for a comparison. Everyone and anyone knows what the magic number to consider yourself the greatest nowadays and everyone knows that number is 6... the number Jordan.

And you say that's a "Kobe Bryant comment"... I don't think kobe has ever made that statement either, specifically targetting Jordan... i actually don't think kobe's ever specifcally stated anything about the number of rings he's had except to say he's got more than shaq.



this is beyond lame.

Cheese if you heard the actual quote, Lebron said "5,6, maybe 7 rings" so the context of what your saying is completely off base. So no I don't think he was referencing Jordan in anyway.

And I am not worried about what you think I wrote is lame. Anytime anyone patronizes my post by saying they didn't read it and then make comments no actually speaking to my point, I am going to unload full barrels. I am not exactly a wallflower and won't apologize for it.

Frankly I am over this thread and will bow out as obviously the responses I am getting are irritating me more then they should.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

More rings than MJ? Big freaking deal.

Seven players already have more rings than MJ.

Heres whats hilarious. This be all end all of 7 rings that everyone in this thread is pointing too inwhat makes you the greatest player all time will be the familiar refrain......until an unpopular player like Kobe gets those 7 rings.

And then everyone will start to make reasons for why Kobe's 7 rings don't equal MJ's 6.

This 7 rings stuff is so arbitrary and ridiculous IMO.

Alright now I am really bowing out

 

[Cheesebeef]

Cheese if you heard the actual quote, Lebron said "5,6, maybe 7 rings" so the context of what your saying is completely off base. So no I don't think he was referencing Jordan in anyway.

And I am not worried about what you think I wrote is lame. Anytime anyone patronizes my post by saying they didn't read it and then make comments no actually speaking to my point, I am going to unload full barrels. I am not exactly a wallflower and won't apologize for it.

Frankly I am over this thread and will bow out as obviously the responses I am getting are irritating me more then they should.

yeah, can't see why you're seemingly taking these comments about LeBron so personal. you're starting to sound like Donald with Kobe... but at least Kobe played on Donald's favorite team. I get liking Bron... eh, actually, I don't. I think he's an amazing basketball player but you've seemed to overlook ALL his flaws.

I mean, i won't go into your treatise that you wrote about why he's different from Shaq, but you made one point about him not being the clown shaq is... which is completely false. With the Cavs, dude was doing riverdances and other lame **** DURING games on the sidelines, completely clowning around and clowning opposing teams. You say Shaq was a clown in interviews and LeBron wasn't, but what's worse? Clowning around when it doesn't matter (interviews off the court) or clowning around when it does (on the court when games are being played)?

that being said, you do bring up a VERY GOOD point about this discussion and that is this: dude's only 26. He's still got time to fully round out his game, but it's got to happen soon. Player generally are what they are by 27-28 and the fact that he is such a ridiculous monster with no post game is a huge head-scratcher to me.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

yeah, can't see why you're seemingly taking these comments about LeBron so personal. you're starting to sound like Donald with Kobe... but at least Kobe played on Donald's favorite team. I get liking Bron... eh, actually, I don't. I think he's an amazing basketball player but you've seemed to overlook ALL his flaws.

I mean, i won't go into your treatise that you wrote about why he's different from Shaq, but you made one point about him not being the clown shaq is... which is completely false. With the Cavs, dude was doing riverdances and other lame **** DURING games on the sidelines, completely clowning around and clowning opposing teams. You say Shaq was a clown in interviews and LeBron wasn't, but what's worse? Clowning around when it doesn't matter (interviews off the court) or clowning around when it does (on the court when games are being played)?

that being said, you do bring up a VERY GOOD point about this discussion and that is this: dude's only 26. He's still got time to fully round out his game, but it's got to happen soon. Player generally are what they are by 27-28 and the fact that he is such a ridiculous monster with no post game is a huge head-scratcher to me.

Fair enough.

BTW I am honored a reply to me was your 25,000 post

 

[TJ]

Why I hate the "he who has more rings is better argument":

Robert Horry has 7 rings. Is he better than MJ? (6 rings)

Adam Morrison has 2 rings. Is he better than Charles Barkley? (0 rings)

Sometimes, "earning" a ring is more opportunistic than contributory. Sometimes, it is better to be lucky than good. This is not to take away the fact that guys like Derek Fischer, Robert Horry, Rick Fox, or others were integral parts in the Lakers winning championships in the early 2000s. It's to say that winning championships is a smaller barometer to an individual's talent than people want to admit. Remember, titles are a team award. Not an individual award.

Furthermore, do you know how many people on a team get a ring when they win a championship? Let me put it to you this way: my father-in-law's good friend from med school is the Miami Heat's primary Ear, Nose and Throat doctor (ENT). He has a ring from the 2006 title. Kind of dilutes the allure of getting a ring a bit.

 

[Covert Rain]

Bro what don't you get about this? I am saying YOU WANT LEBRON TO WANT TO BE BETTER THEN MICHAEL. THATS WHAT YOU THINK HE SHOULD WANT. OBVIOUSLY THATS NOT HIS PRIMARY CONCERN OR HE WOULD HAVE GONE AND BEEN "THE MAN" SOMEWHERE ELSE. WINNING IS MORE IMPORTANT TO HIM THEN RECOGNITION.

You get it now? Was that succient enough for you?

We have guys in this thread like TJ, Cheese, Elindholm, Cardsfan88, Dawg, Afro, and Lorenzo actually making good points and you keep dancing around and bringing weak opinions that in no way are responding to the posts in question. You dont even make the time to actually read what is being written and then think people are going to take your opinions seriously? I respect people with different opnions as long as they bring value to the conversation. You just keep spinning around and around and are not even understanding the premise of what I am saying.

Here's an idea: Why don't you sit this one out and let the big boys discuss?

Lol. Your a big boy? You make crap up and don't read his quotes and your considered a big boy? OK. Your taking this to an almost Andrew on Shaq personal level....and your the big boy?? lol.

I have a copy of the DIME magazine quote if you would like to read it. I will send it to you. However, and I quote:

“When I first got to the NBA, I was happy to be in the NBA and excited to put on an NBA uniform and everything,”. “Not saying I still don’t, but now … I want to become the best player of all-time"

Couple that with his comments about how many rings he wants to win?

Even a big boy like yourself can read right? Let me bold just in case:

LEBRON IS SAYING HE WANTS TO BE THE BEST OF ALL TIME....NOT ME. LEBRON IS PROJECTING THE NUMBER OF RINGS.....NOT ME.

Little boy out.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Lol. Your a big boy? You make crap up and don't read his quotes and your considered a big boy? OK. Your taking this to an almost Andrew on Shaq personal level....and your the big boy?? lol.

I have a copy of DIME magazine if you would like to read it. I will lend it to you. However, and I quote:

“When I first got to the NBA, I was happy to be in the NBA and excited to put on an NBA uniform and everything,”. “Not saying I still don’t, but now … I want to become the best player of all-time"

Couple that with his comments about how many rings he wants to win?

Even a big boy like yourself can read right?

Let me bold just in case:

LEBRON IS SAYING HE WANTS TO BE THE BEST OF ALL TIME....NOT ME. LEBRON IS PROJECTING THE NUMBER OF RINGS.....NOT ME..

First off while I have heard Kobe make numeorus inferences to getting as many rings as the "greatest" and not shying away from the Jordan comparisons Lebron has always gone out of his way to say "there will never be another Michael"

So taking two random quotes multiple years a part and trying to connect them to make a point is not exacly making an argument. In fact I believe that to be a straw man argument.

You also must have must have missed my earlier post that when Lebron made the comment about how many rings hes gonna win in Miami he said "5,6 maybe 7". The way you are inferring it he said "I want 7 rings" then winked and pointed a finger handgun at Jordan. So you just might be taking creative liberties with the point you are trying to make.

Little boy out.

This line right here might be the douchiest thing I have ever read on this site. Congratulations.

AHHHH How do I keep getting pulled back in?!?

 

[Covert Rain]

First off while I have heard Kobe make numeorus inferences to getting as many rings as the "greatest" and not shying away from the Jordan comparisons Lebron has always gone out of his way to say "there will never be another Michael"

Evidently he also went out of his way to say he wants to be the best. Evidently he has never said there will never be a better player than MJ. ofcourse he said there will never by another MJ. That is a compliment not an admission he does not want to be better.

So taking two random quotes multiple years a part and trying to connect them to make a point is not exacly making an argument. In fact I believe that to be a straw man argument.

More straw man than making the assumptions you have like your in his head and knows what he is thinking? More straw man than you making assumption without direct quotes to contradict anything he has said before?

You take it too personal and if you understood that I actually like LeBron you might understand how ridiculous you sound.

You also must have must have missed my earlier post that when Lebron made the comment about how many rings hes gonna win in Miami he said "5,6 maybe 7". The way you are inferring it he said "I want 7 rings" then winked and pointed a finger handgun at Jordan. So you just might be taking creative liberties with the point you are trying to make.

Maybe you didn't read my ealier posts. LeBron has made statements over his short career about becoming the greatest and winning more rings than most players in this league. LeBron did that. Not the media....not fans. He didn't make these comments 10 years ago. He has not since refuted in previous comments.

This line right here might be the douchiest thing I have ever read on this site. Congratulations.

AHHHH How do I keep getting pulled back in?!?

Douchier then "Why don't you sit this one out and let the big boys discuss?"

Douchie comment maker out.

 

[TJ]

Didn't LeBron say at the beginning of the 09-10 season that he was changing his jersey number to #6 because he felt #23 should be retired throughout the league and encouraged the rest if the players in the league like J Rich (who wears #23) to do the same?

IMO that's ultimate appreciation for "His Airness"

BTW, who doesn't want to be the best at their craft? I see no issue with LeBron saying he wants to be the greatest.

 

[Covert Rain]

BTW, who doesn't want to be the best at their craft? I see no issue with LeBron saying he wants to be the greatest.

TJ, 100% agree. There is absolutely nothing wrong with it. Nor as an ultimate competitor should you stride to be anything else.

However, the argument from finest is that really "he didn't mean it" or "he changed his mind" since then so it should not be a factor and that all us fans and media are projecting our own values versus his own words on him and holding him to a higher standard.