2013 Qb

[Cbus cardsfan]

I agree with Bill Simmons and the guys at Football Outsiders that the Cards need to look hard at trying to consumate a trade with San Diego for Philip Rivers. First off though, let's hope SD tanks the rest of the year and they go into full re-build mode.

I'd give a 1st and 3rd, maybe even more, for him tomorrrow. The Cards, I think, have about a 3-4 year window with Fitz to re-gain a dynamic offense and make a SB run. Rivers is a QB who could make it happen. Looking at the current QB's in the NFL, he's about the only guy that may become available that fits the bill of top level QB. All the other ones are older and not going anywhere, Brady, Manning, Ben,etc., or are younger, entering their prime and not going anywhere, Rodgers, Stafford, Ryan, etc.

Rivers's contract call for 17 mill, 15 mill, and almost 16 mill the next 3 years. That's not prohibitive for a top level QB. The Cards could make that work and fit him within the cap through re-structures and cutting dead weight.

I know drafting a QBOF is the popular thinking, and I'm as big a Tyler Wilson fan as anyone, but by taking a young QB we're looking 3 years, at best, before the young guy is ready to win at a high level. The next few years is when the Cards need to strike. The defensive playmakers are all signed, Levi is back and while he's not great, it will greatly improve the OL. Massie will have also have a year under his belt and the other young guys, Kelemente and Potter may be ready contribute. Then you have the return of a hopefully healthy backfield combo of Wells and Williams(even though I wouldn't mind seeing the Cards add Felix Jones through free agency to replace one of them). As for the receiving corp, we know what we have in Fitz, Housler should only get better, Roberts is solid, and Floyd should be ready to take on a more significant role.

To me this trade would be a no-brainer. You put a QB of his caliber on this team and they are easily a 10-13 win team the next 3-4 years.

 

[Buckybird]

Takes 2 to make a trade & I'm pretty sure Rivers can't be had for less than two 1's. his contract situation may not even allow for a trade to be possible.

My biggest concern is that Rivers really hasn't played all that well the last 3 seasons...so buyer beware.

 

[Russ Smith]

Rivers has been really bad the last 2 years, 37 TD 29 INT. I know they've had injuries and WR holdouts and OL situations too, and he's clearly better than anything we have now, but at 30 years old I'd be concerned he's declining due to age and wear and tear.

Hard to say his mechanics have always been weird so it's hard to say has he lost something off his "fastball", or is he just forcing it. Prior to the last 2 years he basically averaged about 30 TD's and 11 INT so he was really good.

It's a gamble but I can certainly see the positives in exploring it. The problem is if it takes too many draft picks, then we have little left to fix the OL.

 

[az jam]

Takes 2 to make a trade & I'm pretty sure Rivers can't be had for less than two 1's. his contract situation may not even allow for a trade to be possible.

My biggest concern is that Rivers really hasn't played all that well the last 3 seasons...so buyer beware.

Agree that it will take two #1s for him perhaps more. I do like Rivers and feel he could be the difference maker here. We still would need to build our OL which could be tough without much cap flexibility and minus our top draft picks. We also would be eating the salary dollars spent on Kolb. I'm not sure how much of a hit that would be in dead dollars carried over.

 

[TigToad]

I'm not a huge Rivers fan. I wouldn't want to give up 2 1s for him. I'd rather use two 1s on drafting two top QB prospects.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

When you factor in age and contract, it's not going to take two #1 picks. If SD wants that, they will not be able to trade him. Jay Cutler was 25, a pro bowl QB, and he basically cost 2 1st rounders. Chicago included Kyle Orton in the deal but that's not much. We can add Skelton if needed. Here is the exact trade for a 25 year old pro bowl QB:
Denver receives 2 1st round picks, Orton, and a 3rd round pick.
Chicago receives Cutler and a 5th round pick

It may cost more than a 1st and 3rd, maybe add another 3-5 round pick if needed but it won't, or shouldn't be more than that.

McNabb would be more of similar type trade, which was a 2nd and conditional 3rd or 4th rounder. Rivers would cost more than that but it's a closer comaprison.

 

[Russ Smith]

THe other thing about Rivers is his personality, people don't like him. If he plays great that'll be trivial, but he can be a divisive guy the way he blames his OL and Wr's for everything. Can you imagine him here this season?

Interesting to think about but it'd have to be a fire sale situation IMO.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I'd do it and use FA and the draft to do nothing but sign every O-linemen with a pulse.

 

[Stout]

I'd do it and use FA and the draft to do nothing but sign every O-linemen with a pulse.

 

[splitsecond]

I'd do it and use FA and the draft to do nothing but sign every O-linemen with a pulse.

Yeah, I am with this line of thinking. We can dump on Rivers for the INTs, but Cutler had the same problem and is now performing well. Too bad we can't get Haley, he would be a fantastic guy to work with Rivers on the offense.

 

[D-Dogg]

I'd do it and use FA and the draft to do nothing but sign every O-linemen with a pulse.

Yessir.

 

[Chopper0080]

I agree with Bill Simmons and the guys at Football Outsiders that the Cards need to look hard at trying to consumate a trade with San Diego for Philip Rivers. First off though, let's hope SD tanks the rest of the year and they go into full re-build mode.

I'd give a 1st and 3rd, maybe even more, for him tomorrrow. The Cards, I think, have about a 3-4 year window with Fitz to re-gain a dynamic offense and make a SB run. Rivers is a QB who could make it happen. Looking at the current QB's in the NFL, he's about the only guy that may become available that fits the bill of top level QB. All the other ones are older and not going anywhere, Brady, Manning, Ben,etc., or are younger, entering their prime and not going anywhere, Rodgers, Stafford, Ryan, etc.

Rivers's contract call for 17 mill, 15 mill, and almost 16 mill the next 3 years. That's not prohibitive for a top level QB. The Cards could make that work and fit him within the cap through re-structures and cutting dead weight.

I know drafting a QBOF is the popular thinking, and I'm as big a Tyler Wilson fan as anyone, but by taking a young QB we're looking 3 years, at best, before the young guy is ready to win at a high level. The next few years is when the Cards need to strike. The defensive playmakers are all signed, Levi is back and while he's not great, it will greatly improve the OL. Massie will have also have a year under his belt and the other young guys, Kelemente and Potter may be ready contribute. Then you have the return of a hopefully healthy backfield combo of Wells and Williams(even though I wouldn't mind seeing the Cards add Felix Jones through free agency to replace one of them). As for the receiving corp, we know what we have in Fitz, Housler should only get better, Roberts is solid, and Floyd should be ready to take on a more significant role.

To me this trade would be a no-brainer. You put a QB of his caliber on this team and they are easily a 10-13 win team the next 3-4 years.

I disagree with this approach for a couple of reasons.

First, the misconception that a rookie QB takes 3 years to win at a high level. Joe Flacco, RGIII, Matt Ryan, Ben Roethlisberger, and Andy Dalton are proff this is just not true. If your team is garbage, it can take a young QB to win at a high level, but that is not the case with our team. The previously mentioned QBs are all proof that with today's rules, a young QB can come into a good team and win right away.

Secondly, is cost. I get that there are no guarantees in young QBs, but the cost difference between spending the #8 pick in 2012 draft (Ryan Tannahill) and potentially giving up multiple draft picks for Phillip Rivers is huge. Tannahill signed a 4 year, 12.668 million dollar contract averaging 3.167 per year. Phillip Rivers is owed 47.7 million over the next three years, averaging 16 million per year. I would rather trade up to get a young, potetial start QB in the draft AND spend the difference (12.5 mil per year) on a top offensive linemen vs. signing a 30+ QB with consecutive years of declining statistics.

I like Philip Rivers as much as the next guy, but giving up multiple draft picks and spending 16 mil per year on an average NFL QB is rediculous to me. If he was a free agent, I would sign him in a second, but I am not game to take on a terrible contract and give up draft picks to do so while hoping Rivers turns into the QB he was on the other side of 30 than he is now.

 

[kerouac9]

THe other thing about Rivers is his personality, people don't like him. If he plays great that'll be trivial, but he can be a divisive guy the way he blames his OL and Wr's for everything. Can you imagine him here this season?

Interesting to think about but it'd have to be a fire sale situation IMO.

I don't think that San Diego's fans hate Rivers. Maybe even now that he's struggled for a season and a half. Opposing fans totally hate Rivers, but that's because he's usually better than their guy.

 

[kerouac9]

I'd do it and use FA and the draft to do nothing but sign every O-linemen with a pulse.

The problem with that approach (and I'd pull the trigger anyway) is that once you acquire Rivers and cut Kolb, there isn't any money to acquire O-linemen or do anything in free agency. You can get a 2nd round OT to compete for a job, and that's about all the help you're going to be able to give Rivers.

I'm kind of coming around to the idea that this offensive line moves to mediocrity with Levi Brown being healthy and being able to help Massie with RBs and TEs instead of Batiste. Maybe Senio Kelemete is able to compete with Colledge or Snyder for a starting job this offseason. Perhaps you could get another guard for $2 million a year, but I don't think you can do more than add warm bodies at tackle on the budget we're going to have.

Unless Phil Rivers can re-negotiate his contract to reduce his Cap number, we'd have like $21 million locked up in the QB position after cutting Kolb.

 

[kerouac9]

I disagree with this approach for a couple of reasons.

First, the misconception that a rookie QB takes 3 years to win at a high level. Joe Flacco, RGIII, Matt Ryan, Ben Roethlisberger, and Andy Dalton are proff this is just not true. If your team is garbage, it can take a young QB to win at a high level, but that is not the case with our team. The previously mentioned QBs are all proof that with today's rules, a young QB can come into a good team and win right away.

Secondly, is cost. I get that there are no guarantees in young QBs, but the cost difference between spending the #8 pick in 2012 draft (Ryan Tannahill) and potentially giving up multiple draft picks for Phillip Rivers is huge. Tannahill signed a 4 year, 12.668 million dollar contract averaging 3.167 per year. Phillip Rivers is owed 47.7 million over the next three years, averaging 16 million per year. I would rather trade up to get a young, potetial start QB in the draft AND spend the difference (12.5 mil per year) on a top offensive linemen vs. signing a 30+ QB with consecutive years of declining statistics.

I like Philip Rivers as much as the next guy, but giving up multiple draft picks and spending 16 mil per year on an average NFL QB is rediculous to me. If he was a free agent, I would sign him in a second, but I am not game to take on a terrible contract and give up draft picks to do so while hoping Rivers turns into the QB he was on the other side of 30 than he is now.

I think the argument is that you have a defense where some of the core pieces are aging (Dockett, Wilson) and an offense that probably isn't going to be able to rise to the occasion to bail them out. If you want to cash in on Larry Fitzgerald's prime and compete with Seattle and San Francisco for the next few years in the NFC West, you can go get Phil Rivers and develop Lindley behind him.

I really believe that Phil Rivers is an above-average QB when he has weapons to play with. I went in to last season thinking that he might be the best QB in the NFL without a ring. He still might be. I see what you're saying about the young QBs, but I don't think there's a youngster in this draft class as good as Rothlisberger or RG3, and I don't think that this offense or coaching staff is capable of supporting a young QB the way that the Bengals or Steelers were willing to.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

I disagree with this approach for a couple of reasons.

First, the misconception that a rookie QB takes 3 years to win at a high level. Joe Flacco, RGIII, Matt Ryan, Ben Roethlisberger, and Andy Dalton are proff this is just not true. If your team is garbage, it can take a young QB to win at a high level, but that is not the case with our team. The previously mentioned QBs are all proof that with today's rules, a young QB can come into a good team and win right away.

Secondly, is cost. I get that there are no guarantees in young QBs, but the cost difference between spending the #8 pick in 2012 draft (Ryan Tannahill) and potentially giving up multiple draft picks for Phillip Rivers is huge. Tannahill signed a 4 year, 12.668 million dollar contract averaging 3.167 per year. Phillip Rivers is owed 47.7 million over the next three years, averaging 16 million per year. I would rather trade up to get a young, potetial start QB in the draft AND spend the difference (12.5 mil per year) on a top offensive linemen vs. signing a 30+ QB with consecutive years of declining statistics.

I like Philip Rivers as much as the next guy, but giving up multiple draft picks and spending 16 mil per year on an average NFL QB is rediculous to me. If he was a free agent, I would sign him in a second, but I am not game to take on a terrible contract and give up draft picks to do so while hoping Rivers turns into the QB he was on the other side of 30 than he is now.

It's not impossible to win with a young guy, just very unlikely. You picked out 3 guys,4 if you want to add Sanchez, I'm not counting RG or Dalton(hasn't beaten a team with a winning record) because they haven't won anything yet, out all the QB's since 2004 as proof. Those aren't very good odds.

Plus, Whiz runs a notoriously complicated offense that a vet like Warner took time to learn. I think the Cards need a guy they know they can win with. Would I be mad if they stood their ground a drafted Tyler Wilson, no, but Wilson, or any rookie, is going to have a higher failure rate than Rivers. What if the drafted QBOF doesn't pan out? Then the Cards are back into a messy QB situation. With the team as it's contructed now, a proven commodity like Rivers, to me, is a much better solution.

 

[kerouac9]

It's not impossible to win with a young guy, just very unlikely. You picked out 3 guys,4 if you want to add Sanchez, I'm not counting RG or Dalton(hasn't beaten a team with a winning record) because they haven't won anything yet, out all the QB's since 2004 as proof. Those aren't very good odds.

Plus, Whiz runs a notoriously complicated offense that a vet like Warner took time to learn. I think the Cards need a guy they know they can win with. Would I be mad if they stood their ground a drafted Tyler Wilson, no, but Wilson, or any rookie, is going to have a higher failure rate than Rivers. What if the drafted QBOF doesn't pan out? Then the Cards are back into a messy QB situation. With the team as it's contructed now, a proven commodity like Rivers, to me, is a much better solution.

When does the statute of limitations on this nonsense canard run out? Kevin Kolb completed 2/3 of his passes for 300+ yards and 2 TDs in his first game in this offense on two months' practice. Kurt Warner completed 60+% of his passes for 27 TDs and 17 INTs.

It might take time to "master" the offense--but I generally think that when Warner says that, he means being able to communicate what he wants to do and get his input and strengths into the system.

 

[JeffGollin]

How about first hiring a competant QB Coach/OC and then let him have a say in who our QB will be.

 

[Russ Smith]

It's not impossible to win with a young guy, just very unlikely. You picked out 3 guys,4 if you want to add Sanchez, I'm not counting RG or Dalton(hasn't beaten a team with a winning record) because they haven't won anything yet, out all the QB's since 2004 as proof. Those aren't very good odds.

Plus, Whiz runs a notoriously complicated offense that a vet like Warner took time to learn. I think the Cards need a guy they know they can win with. Would I be mad if they stood their ground a drafted Tyler Wilson, no, but Wilson, or any rookie, is going to have a higher failure rate than Rivers. What if the drafted QBOF doesn't pan out? Then the Cards are back into a messy QB situation. With the team as it's contructed now, a proven commodity like Rivers, to me, is a much better solution.

I think Rivers would probably adapt to Whiz faster than a rookie no doubt.

As Chopper said he makes so much money add in Kolb and you almos have to restructure Rivers somehow.

to me the key is you have to be able to do it without weakening the defense. If SD wants a defensive starter in the trade forget it. the defense is really good you don't want to tamper with that trying to fix the offense. The offense has to be fixed via trade and draft without involving the defense.

Rivers is a polarizing guy you either love him or hate him and that includes his own teammates so if you go get him you better give him enough talent around him to excel.

If he were on this team now we'd be better ,but we'd be seeing him every week yelling at the OL, glaring at Doucet after drops etc. If he is personally playing well you can live with that.

Also, if I were Rob Housler I'd do backflips if we got Rivers, next to Brady no QB in the NFL uses his TE's more than Rivers. Even this year with Gates' health they have 5 TD's to the TE's, including 3 to Rosario when Gates was hurt. Rivers is great at dropping the ball over the head of a LB to his TE, the exact throw Kolb and Skelton have had so many problems making to Housler.

 

[john h]

I think Rivers would probably adapt to Whiz faster than a rookie no doubt.

As Chopper said he makes so much money add in Kolb and you almos have to restructure Rivers somehow.

to me the key is you have to be able to do it without weakening the defense. If SD wants a defensive starter in the trade forget it. the defense is really good you don't want to tamper with that trying to fix the offense. The offense has to be fixed via trade and draft without involving the defense.

Rivers is a polarizing guy you either love him or hate him and that includes his own teammates so if you go get him you better give him enough talent around him to excel.

If he were on this team now we'd be better ,but we'd be seeing him every week yelling at the OL, glaring at Doucet after drops etc. If he is personally playing well you can live with that.

Also, if I were Rob Housler I'd do backflips if we got Rivers, next to Brady no QB in the NFL uses his TE's more than Rivers. Even this year with Gates' health they have 5 TD's to the TE's, including 3 to Rosario when Gates was hurt. Rivers is great at dropping the ball over the head of a LB to his TE, the exact throw Kolb and Skelton have had so many problems making to Housler.

I have never seen Cards make big deals like this. It is not in their nature or genes. I would take about anyone over what we have but think we must get a QB through the draft and not weaken our defense as someone mentioned. I do not like trading away a lot of picks unless it is for a very good QB coming out of the draft. The Kolb factor also rears its ugly head here with all the money we owe him and have paid him. I would sign the best of the older guys available for next year and go hard in the draft for the best QB available. I think we may be picking higher up than many expect. We have never been very good at thinking outside the box when it comes to personnel.

 

[Chopper0080]

It's not impossible to win with a young guy, just very unlikely. You picked out 3 guys,4 if you want to add Sanchez, I'm not counting RG or Dalton(hasn't beaten a team with a winning record) because they haven't won anything yet, out all the QB's since 2004 as proof. Those aren't very good odds.

Plus, Whiz runs a notoriously complicated offense that a vet like Warner took time to learn. I think the Cards need a guy they know they can win with. Would I be mad if they stood their ground a drafted Tyler Wilson, no, but Wilson, or any rookie, is going to have a higher failure rate than Rivers. What if the drafted QBOF doesn't pan out? Then the Cards are back into a messy QB situation. With the team as it's contructed now, a proven commodity like Rivers, to me, is a much better solution.

Again I like Rivers, but he is anything but proven as far as a champion or playoff winner. You could argue that he has been at the head of some of the most underperforming teams of the past 5 years in terms of the playoffs. I'm not in anyway sold on trading multiple draft picks for a QB who is over 30, has been declining in production and has not won a championship. I see our window, but to me, this would be a kneejerk reaction. I believe you would have a better argumement for acquiring Mark Sanchez or Josh Freeman over Rivers because the compensation and salary would be less. Hell, why not look at Tony Romo?

 

[kerouac9]

Again I like Rivers, but he is anything but proven as far as a champion or playoff winner. You could argue that he has been at the head of some of the most underperforming teams of the past 5 years in terms of the playoffs. I'm not in anyway sold on trading multiple draft picks for a QB who is over 30, has been declining in production and has not won a championship. I see our window, but to me, this would be a kneejerk reaction. I believe you would have a better argumement for acquiring Mark Sanchez or Josh Freeman over Rivers because the compensation and salary would be less. Hell, why not look at Tony Romo?

Mark Sanchez may be available, but Josh Freeman definitely isn't, and won't be. A QB under 30 who has won a championship and rising production doesn't come on the trade market. Phil Rivers probably won't either, but he might.

Rivers is 3-4 as a playoff quarterback. It's difficult to point to an AFC Quarterback and complain that he hasn't been to the Super Bowl, when the only AFC QBs who HAVE been to the Super Bowl in the last decade are named Manning, Roethlisberger, or Brady. That's just not fair. Would you not trade for Joe Flacco, either?

You're right, of course, that the best scenario would be to draft a first-round quarterback who can contribute to winning immediately and develop into an elite QB over his first contract, which would cost around $15 million total. I'm not certain that such a player is available in 2013, and I'm less certain that we have a coaching staff capable of accomplishing that goal.

So, what's the best option based on the limits available? I'd love to make a run at a Super Bowl for the next four seasons with Phil Rivers and have a complete overhaul of the offense in 2016 with a defense of D-Wash and Patrick Peterson entering their primes as Franchise defenders.

 

[john h]

I agree with Bill Simmons and the guys at Football Outsiders that the Cards need to look hard at trying to consumate a trade with San Diego for Philip Rivers. First off though, let's hope SD tanks the rest of the year and they go into full re-build mode.

I'd give a 1st and 3rd, maybe even more, for him tomorrrow. The Cards, I think, have about a 3-4 year window with Fitz to re-gain a dynamic offense and make a SB run. Rivers is a QB who could make it happen. Looking at the current QB's in the NFL, he's about the only guy that may become available that fits the bill of top level QB. All the other ones are older and not going anywhere, Brady, Manning, Ben,etc., or are younger, entering their prime and not going anywhere, Rodgers, Stafford, Ryan, etc.

Rivers's contract call for 17 mill, 15 mill, and almost 16 mill the next 3 years. That's not prohibitive for a top level QB. The Cards could make that work and fit him within the cap through re-structures and cutting dead weight.

I know drafting a QBOF is the popular thinking, and I'm as big a Tyler Wilson fan as anyone, but by taking a young QB we're looking 3 years, at best, before the young guy is ready to win at a high level. The next few years is when the Cards need to strike. The defensive playmakers are all signed, Levi is back and while he's not great, it will greatly improve the OL. Massie will have also have a year under his belt and the other young guys, Kelemente and Potter may be ready contribute. Then you have the return of a hopefully healthy backfield combo of Wells and Williams(even though I wouldn't mind seeing the Cards add Felix Jones through free agency to replace one of them). As for the receiving corp, we know what we have in Fitz, Housler should only get better, Roberts is solid, and Floyd should be ready to take on a more significant role.

To me this trade would be a no-brainer. You put a QB of his caliber on this team and they are easily a 10-13 win team the next 3-4 years.

I think we would all like Rivers if he only cost a first round draft pick. He will cost multiple picks and players and then have a salary that makes Kolb cost look cheap. The Bidwills would never do this sort of thing IMHO.

Having Rivers is no guarantee of winning anything but he sure would give us a lot better chance than we have with our two QBs. Even when they are healthy. To have Kolb's and River's salary on this team plus the guys we have recently extended would take us over the salary cap I would think. We might have to get rid of some good personnel. I had rather gamble on a guy who might turn out to be a Warner. Former great player who most thought was done for and who came cheap. In the meantime we might stumble upon a very good draft QB pick while using one of the older guys who will be available. One thing we sure do not want to do is to start next year with Kolb and Skelton as our two QBs. That would be totally stupid beyond belief. I would cut Skelton or Kolb and I really do not care which. Both are equally bad or are unlikely to finish a full season. How many years will Kolb have been in the NFL after this year? What has he done to earn his big salary? There comes a time when you must admit you made a mistake and move on.

 

[Chopper0080]

Mark Sanchez may be available, but Josh Freeman definitely isn't, and won't be. A QB under 30 who has won a championship and rising production doesn't come on the trade market. Phil Rivers probably won't either, but he might.

Rivers is 3-4 as a playoff quarterback. It's difficult to point to an AFC Quarterback and complain that he hasn't been to the Super Bowl, when the only AFC QBs who HAVE been to the Super Bowl in the last decade are named Manning, Roethlisberger, or Brady. That's just not fair. Would you not trade for Joe Flacco, either?

You're right, of course, that the best scenario would be to draft a first-round quarterback who can contribute to winning immediately and develop into an elite QB over his first contract, which would cost around $15 million total. I'm not certain that such a player is available in 2013, and I'm less certain that we have a coaching staff capable of accomplishing that goal.

So, what's the best option based on the limits available? I'd love to make a run at a Super Bowl for the next four seasons with Phil Rivers and have a complete overhaul of the offense in 2016 with a defense of D-Wash and Patrick Peterson entering their primes as Franchise defenders.

At $15 mil though???

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Again I like Rivers, but he is anything but proven as far as a champion or playoff winner. You could argue that he has been at the head of some of the most underperforming teams of the past 5 years in terms of the playoffs. I'm not in anyway sold on trading multiple draft picks for a QB who is over 30, has been declining in production and has not won a championship. I see our window, but to me, this would be a kneejerk reaction. I believe you would have a better argumement for acquiring Mark Sanchez or Josh Freeman over Rivers because the compensation and salary would be less. Hell, why not look at Tony Romo?

I actually considered mentioning Romo but he's seems like the classic put up good numbers but choke when it counts. Maybe the Neil Rackers of QB's . Rivers has won some big playoff games as a QB. He beat Manning in Indy during which he hurt his knee then play the AFC title game with basically no ACL.
I'll be the first to admit that I hated Rivers as a prospect coming out of NC ST and thought he was going to be a complete bust. I just think, right now, he's the perfect match for the Cards needs at QB.