2014 Draft morphing

[Russ Smith]

No it hasn't. You might be convinced but look around you, the NBA is looking to draft him pretty high. How often do they draft a sub 6'8 guy with no real back to the basket game with intentions of playing him at the power forward spot? I think it's clear that someone in the NBA believes he can eventually play on the wing. As for not learning to shoot, he shows enough potential during practice to suggest he can learn to do it in the game. If he were hard headed or lazy I'd agree with you but to write him off because of the little work he's had in the past, no. You don't correct a lifetime of bad habits overnight and now that he has nothing else to work on he should have a better chance at it.

Steve

Well at the combine he was listed as a 4. He worked out with the 4's, and virtually all of the conversation about him among NBA people there was right now the only position he can play offensively is the 4.

He can guard the 3, but he's not a 3, that's something that's pretty widely accepted as fact right now.

I'm not saying he can't move to the 3 at some point down the line but I was talking about Gordon during his recruitment insisting over and over he was a 3 or even a 2. His comments about the difference between me and Griffin is I can play PG he can't. In reality none of that is currently true.

I agree that he'll get better he's a great athlete, works hard, team kid, but at the end of the day some guys just lack touch and he may be one of those guys. The jumpshots he makes you think hey that's not a bad stroke, but the ones he misses are brutal.

If you google the shooting coach videos on youtube one of the first ones the guy has him doing catch and shoot drills. Gordon misses like 15 in a row and the coach stops the drill and tells him to just stay in one spot until he makes one. I think it took 3-4 tries and the coach says I wanted you to see the ball go through the basket, mechanics are important but at some point the ball has to go in.

I've been hearing about him since he was in 8th grade and they've been saying all along he really improved his shot, it's just never turned out to be true so until I see it with my own eyes, I'm skeptical that he will.

But it's apparent what he did at the combine was enough to move him back up to where he was before he played in college

 

[AzStevenCal]

Well at the combine he was listed as a 4. He worked out with the 4's, and virtually all of the conversation about him among NBA people there was right now the only position he can play offensively is the 4.

He can guard the 3, but he's not a 3, that's something that's pretty widely accepted as fact right now.

I'm not saying he can't move to the 3 at some point down the line but I was talking about Gordon during his recruitment insisting over and over he was a 3 or even a 2. His comments about the difference between me and Griffin is I can play PG he can't. In reality none of that is currently true.

I agree that he'll get better he's a great athlete, works hard, team kid, but at the end of the day some guys just lack touch and he may be one of those guys. The jumpshots he makes you think hey that's not a bad stroke, but the ones he misses are brutal.

If you google the shooting coach videos on youtube one of the first ones the guy has him doing catch and shoot drills. Gordon misses like 15 in a row and the coach stops the drill and tells him to just stay in one spot until he makes one. I think it took 3-4 tries and the coach says I wanted you to see the ball go through the basket, mechanics are important but at some point the ball has to go in.

I've been hearing about him since he was in 8th grade and they've been saying all along he really improved his shot, it's just never turned out to be true so until I see it with my own eyes, I'm skeptical that he will.

But it's apparent what he did at the combine was enough to move him back up to where he was before he played in college

He falls further short as a three right now than as a four so I'm not surprised he worked out with the power forwards. I just don't see any future for him at that position and if he's moved up because of the combine it's because he's being projected to the three, IMO. As a four he has neither the skill nor the body to play the position. He might be able to give you some minutes there, like Marion has done in the past, but I can't see anyone wasting a high pick on a player whose ceiling is that of a backup power forward. Maybe I'm wrong but I'm convinced they are expecting to develop him as a three. At least there, he's only lacking some of the skills for the position.

Steve

 

[JCSunsfan]

Having a forward that can guard both the 3 and 4 is a really nice option. It allows you to hide another 3 or 4 who might have some deficiencies defensively. He might be a nice option along side Kevin Love for instance. . .

And Marion's most productive minutes were at the 4.

 

[SirStefan32]

I am not advocating for drafting Gordon (Au contraire, I think the Suns shouldn't touch him with a ten foot pole with their first pick,) BUT, he seems to be big enough to play a small/ non-power 4 in the NBA. I am not a fan of non-power Power Forwards, but in today's NBA, it really wouldn't be unusual to see Gordon play 4.

 

[SirStefan32]

Having a forward that can guard both the 3 and 4 is a really nice option. It allows you to hide another 3 or 4 who might have some deficiencies defensively. He might be a nice option along side Kevin Love for instance. . .

And Marion's most productive minutes were at the 4.

Marion is a really bad comparison, in my opinion. Marion could actually defend and shoot, and he was an outstanding rebounder. Gordon is not even remotely close to Marion in any single category.

EDIT: To clarify, I am talking about younger Marion, not Marion of today.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I like Gordon and wouldn't mind if the Suns draft him. To me, he is a better version of Tucker. (bigger, stronger, more athletic, same motor)

 

[slinslin]

No it hasn't. You might be convinced but look around you, the NBA is looking to draft him pretty high. How often do they draft a sub 6'8 guy with no real back to the basket game with intentions of playing him at the power forward spot? I think it's clear that someone in the NBA believes he can eventually play on the wing. As for not learning to shoot, he shows enough potential during practice to suggest he can learn to do it in the game. If he were hard headed or lazy I'd agree with you but to write him off because of the little work he's had in the past, no. You don't correct a lifetime of bad habits overnight and now that he has nothing else to work on he should have a better chance at it.

Steve

He is not under 6'8. He is 6'9 and practically longer than Blake Griffin or Kevin Love.

 

[AzStevenCal]

He is not under 6'8. He is 6'9 and practically longer than Blake Griffin or Kevin Love.

In barefeet, he's under 6'8 and I couldn't care less about the measurements in shoes. Until they establish specs on the shoes they can be measured in, that number is meaningless. Now, he's probably the youngest college player in this draft so he might yet grow a little but he'd still be undersized for power forward. Blake is also undersized but he has a physical presence that makes up for it, one that Gordon does not possess.

Steve

 

[JCSunsfan]

In barefeet, he's under 6'8 and I couldn't care less about the measurements in shoes. Until they establish specs on the shoes they can be measured in, that number is meaningless. Now, he's probably the youngest college player in this draft so he might yet grow a little but he'd still be undersized for power forward. Blake is also undersized but he has a physical presence that makes up for it, one that Gordon does not possess.

Steve

Its fine to only consider the measurements in socks, but if you do, you have to compare those with the "in socks" measurement for everyone else.

 

[slinslin]

In barefeet, he's under 6'8 and I couldn't care less about the measurements in shoes. Until they establish specs on the shoes they can be measured in, that number is meaningless. Now, he's probably the youngest college player in this draft so he might yet grow a little but he'd still be undersized for power forward. Blake is also undersized but he has a physical presence that makes up for it, one that Gordon does not possess.

Steve

except that Kevin Love and Blake Griffin are also under 6'8 in barefeet.

 

[slinslin]

Marion is a really bad comparison, in my opinion. Marion could actually defend and shoot, and he was an outstanding rebounder. Gordon is not even remotely close to Marion in any single category.

EDIT: To clarify, I am talking about younger Marion, not Marion of today.

Marion really couldn't shoot when he came to the league. Even now he can flick the ball in when left open but he never had a real jumpshot.

Gordon is better than Marion as a prospect at just about anything, athletic ability is probably close.

Other than that Gordon has better strength, better basketball IQ, better handle, great footwork, great attitude, great work ethic.

I'd like to think of Gordon as sort of a Marion/Rodman hybrid.

Definitely would not be disappointed to get him, I think he can defend 3 positions in the NBA and maybe 4 later on.

 

[95pro]

Is Love under 6'8"???

 

[slinslin]

except that Kevin Love and Blake Griffin are also under 6'8 in barefeet.

Gordon standing reach of 8'9'' is a little small but basically the same height as

Julius Randle 8'9'' 1/2
Jared Sullinger 8'9'' 1/2
Thomas Robinson 8'10
Markieff Morris 8'10 1/2
Kevin Love 8'10

It's not unreasonable to think that Aaron Gordon could still grow an inch.

 

[Russ Smith]

He falls further short as a three right now than as a four so I'm not surprised he worked out with the power forwards. I just don't see any future for him at that position and if he's moved up because of the combine it's because he's being projected to the three, IMO. As a four he has neither the skill nor the body to play the position. He might be able to give you some minutes there, like Marion has done in the past, but I can't see anyone wasting a high pick on a player whose ceiling is that of a backup power forward. Maybe I'm wrong but I'm convinced they are expecting to develop him as a three. At least there, he's only lacking some of the skills for the position.

Steve

He measured out well at the combine and did well in the vertical leap. I think he's more than an inch taller than he measured at the Team USA workouts last year when he was on the national team.

He didn't do the main workouts, like most of the top projected picks he picked and chose what he did. I know he did the vert and agility drills but he didn't do any shooting or any of the scrimmage stuff. In other words he did the things he knew he'd show well in, and skipped the things he knew he'd show poorly in like most of the top rated kids.

He's an inch shorter and 21 pounds lighter than Griffin, but actually has a half inch edge in wingspan.

He really is a mini Griffin he's even a very good passer like Griffin is, he just needs to get it out of his head he's a guard and start working on post skills so when he does play the 4, he can post up at times.

He may eventually move to the 3 if ever improves his shot but his main value offensively is passing and on the glass, putbacks or transition buckets.

 

[Russ Smith]

Marion is a really bad comparison, in my opinion. Marion could actually defend and shoot, and he was an outstanding rebounder. Gordon is not even remotely close to Marion in any single category.

EDIT: To clarify, I am talking about younger Marion, not Marion of today.

Gordon can't shoot a lick but he's a terrific defender and rebounder.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Is Love under 6'8"???

6-7.75 w/o shoes unless he has grown since he came into the league.

 

[Russ Smith]

except that Kevin Love and Blake Griffin are also under 6'8 in barefeet.

Griffin was 6 8 1/2, Gordon 6 7 1/2 but Gordon has longer arms so he actually has a longer wingspan. the main issue is Gordon has to get stronger, but then if you've seen his brother Drew you would assume he eventually will get stronger.

 

[slinslin]

Is Love under 6'8"???

Love 6'7 3/4 barefeet 6'9 1/2 in shoes 6'11 1/4 wingspan 8'10 reach

Gordon 6'7 1/2 barefeet 6'8 3/4 in shoes 6'11 3/4 wingspan 8'9 reach

So Gordon should have wider shoulders (considering he has a longer wingspawn but Love has a longer reach despite being just 1/4 inch taller) and Love had much thicker shoes.

 

[slinslin]

He measured out well at the combine and did well in the vertical leap. I think he's more than an inch taller than he measured at the Team USA workouts last year when he was on the national team.

He didn't do the main workouts, like most of the top projected picks he picked and chose what he did. I know he did the vert and agility drills but he didn't do any shooting or any of the scrimmage stuff. In other words he did the things he knew he'd show well in, and skipped the things he knew he'd show poorly in like most of the top rated kids.

He's an inch shorter and 21 pounds lighter than Griffin, but actually has a half inch edge in wingspan.

He really is a mini Griffin he's even a very good passer like Griffin is, he just needs to get it out of his head he's a guard and start working on post skills so when he does play the 4, he can post up at times.

He may eventually move to the 3 if ever improves his shot but his main value offensively is passing and on the glass, putbacks or transition buckets.

He would score for us in pick and rolls diving to the basket like Amare or in transition.
We would not post him up much anyway.

And like you said his real value is that he is a beast defensively, very tenacious and has the footwork to defend on the perimeter against ballhandlers. I think Gordon has potential to end up on many all defensive teams if he has a decent career.

Gordon is basically a full year younger than Amare when we drafted him. Amare was a little longer officially, their offensive scoring game is similiar but Gordon already is a very good ball handler and passer for a power forward and is a beast defensively.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Its fine to only consider the measurements in socks, but if you do, you have to compare those with the "in socks" measurement for everyone else.

I do, I always go to the bare feet measurement when available.

Steve

 

[AzStevenCal]

He would score for us in pick and rolls diving to the basket like Amare or in transition.
We would not post him up much anyway.

And like you said his real value is that he is a beast defensively, very tenacious and has the footwork to defend on the perimeter against ballhandlers. I think Gordon has potential to end up on many all defensive teams if he has a decent career.

Gordon is basically a full year younger than Amare when we drafted him. Amare was a little longer officially, their offensive scoring game is similiar but Gordon already is a very good ball handler and passer for a power forward and is a beast defensively.

I'm a Gordon fan but I wouldn't describe him as a "beast defensively. He's a good defender but his real value as a defender is his flexibility, similar to Cliff Robinson when he put his mind to it. He can guard any position for a long enough stretch to let the defense adjust to whatever matchup problems exist. You can't put him on a center or a point guard for a whole game but in transition and for half a dozen seconds he can guard anyone.

I think he can get stronger but I don't believe he has the trunk to play down low. But I don't see how anyone can compare his game to Amare, they are miles apart. The Marion comparison comes much closer especially if you allow for the development that's likely to occur between Aaron as he is now and where he'll be when he reaches Marion's draft age.

Steve

 

[Joe Mama]

I do, I always go to the bare feet measurement when available.

Steve

okay, this is my annual "who the hell cares how tall somebody is to the top of their head?" post. It's totally meaningless unless you think they are going to defend/shoot the ball like a non-goalie soccer player. The important measurements are standing reach, weight, wing span, size of the hands, and then the athleticism/strength tests. I don't care if a guy is 6'6" if he has the length, strength, and weight of a seven footer. In fact a lot of times those guys are even better.

This is what worries me about Miles Plumlee defensively. He has good size except he has the standing reach of Markieff Morris who most of us would say is not even ideally sized to play power forward. He makes up for some of it with his athleticism, but that's not necessarily a substitute for great length at the center position.

I have a feeling about this lottery. Maybe all of our crappy luck in the draft lottery will translate into a draft lottery miracle.

Joe

 

[AzStevenCal]

okay, this is my annual "who the hell cares how tall somebody is to the top of their head?" post. It's totally meaningless unless you think they are going to defend/shoot the ball like a non-goalie soccer player. The important measurements are standing reach, weight, wing span, size of the hands, and then the athleticism/strength tests. I don't care if a guy is 6'6" if he has the length, strength, and weight of a seven footer. In fact a lot of times those guys are even better.

This is what worries me about Miles Plumlee defensively. He has good size except he has the standing reach of Markieff Morris who most of us would say is not even ideally sized to play power forward. He makes up for some of it with his athleticism, but that's not necessarily a substitute for great length at the center position.

I have a feeling about this lottery. Maybe all of our crappy luck in the draft lottery will translate into a draft lottery miracle.

Joe

I don't think it's the most important measurement but that doesn't mean it's useless. I think the difference between height and either wingspan or standing reach is probably the most important. But if you don't have height and you're going to play an inside position, you need extra length and some girth too. When you look at a college player and it's obvious he lacks the girth, height gains in relevance.

Steve

 

[slinslin]

http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2014/5/...t-sacramento-kings-trade-no-8-pick/in/5499915

 

[JCSunsfan]

Now that the lottery is done, there are new questions.

1. If Cleveland does not trade this pick who do they take. This team has missed too often on draft picks, and I do not think they are under the illusion that LeBron is coming back. They have to take the surest bet and that's Jabari Parker. The rub? What if Parker looks at the way things are shaking out and decides to stay in school?
2. The Bucks could take Embiid here, but there are the issues with his back. Philly fans are begging the Bucks to take Embiid. In the end, they have to take Wiggins.
3. Now what does Philly do? Do they take another injured seven footer? No. They either trade out of this pick or they take Exum.
4. Now the Magic are on the clock. Smart or Embiid. Smart would pair with Oladipo well. Embiid slides again.
5. Utah. This team won't mess around. They take the BPA and forget positions. Embiid goes here.
6. Celtics. They will probably trade this pick or try to trade it for Love. Either way, a pf goes here. I think Vonleh will be the hot commodity by draft day. Vonleh.
7. Lakers take Randle or Vonleh, whoever is left. They will draft a player.
8. This pick will likely be traded. At this point there are too many unknowns. The Kings want veteran production. This is the point where the draft becomes completely unpredictable.