2018-19 Season | Point Guard Discussion

[Hoop Head]

Part of why I don't like the Bridges trade as much is the Ariza signing. It's tough not to view all of the moves together since the offseason is almost over. Had we not signed Ariza, or not traded for Bridges, then we'd have about $15 million in cap space to make a deal work or the Miami pick to deal. Either would probably net us a PG that isn't just a stop gap measure. It's tough to say at this point though. As is though we're no longer in position to take on more salary since we took on the Anderson deal so that makes shopping for someone much more difficult. Of course if we can land a Kemba Walker type then we may not need a ton of cap room next season but there are few PG's on the trade market that would fill our needs and allow us to give up cap space next summer without regrets.

 

[JustWinBaby]

That is telling it like it is.

This also is the 2nd year without a legit Point guard to lead all of the young talent he has acquired. Bledsoe started the season as our veteran point guard but he was a dead man walking. The great Brandon Knight was on the IR.

This is the GM that invested $140 Million of Sarver's money for Knight and Bledsoe as our future point guards. Why in the world does he keep this guy? How freaking dumb is Sarver?

I doubt that any other manager who works for Sarver in his other businesses would still be employed based on McDonough's performance.

The best choice at this point is Canaan. I like him but that is not the point.

The best choice is to fire McDonough prior to the season opener for not providing the veteran point guard he has promised forever. Bob you missed your chance at the end of last season. Please don't let him blow away any more of our assets.

I know that is not going to happen but why wait? Haven't we seen enough bad moves?

 

[SirStefan32]

Part of why I don't like the Bridges trade as much is the Ariza signing. It's tough not to view all of the moves together since the offseason is almost over. Had we not signed Ariza, or not traded for Bridges, then we'd have about $15 million in cap space to make a deal work or the Miami pick to deal. Either would probably net us a PG that isn't just a stop gap measure. It's tough to say at this point though. As is though we're no longer in position to take on more salary since we took on the Anderson deal so that makes shopping for someone much more difficult. Of course if we can land a Kemba Walker type then we may not need a ton of cap room next season but there are few PG's on the trade market that would fill our needs and allow us to give up cap space next summer without regrets.

Now THIS is a solid post, and a damning criticism of McD. I like Ariza, I like Bridges, but he should have targeted a point guard before acquiring two wings. This is all assuming he doesn't have something lined up involving one of the wings and an available point guard.

 

[Mainstreet]

Part of why I don't like the Bridges trade as much is the Ariza signing. It's tough not to view all of the moves together since the offseason is almost over. Had we not signed Ariza, or not traded for Bridges, then we'd have about $15 million in cap space to make a deal work or the Miami pick to deal. Either would probably net us a PG that isn't just a stop gap measure. It's tough to say at this point though. As is though we're no longer in position to take on more salary since we took on the Anderson deal so that makes shopping for someone much more difficult. Of course if we can land a Kemba Walker type then we may not need a ton of cap room next season but there are few PG's on the trade market that would fill our needs and allow us to give up cap space next summer without regrets.

The Suns still have the expiring contract of Darrell Arthur to use. Maybe his contract will be used to help acquire a PG.

However, I agree the Bridges trade combined with the acquisition of Ariza raises some questions. The Suns were supposedly going to play Ariza at PF but they have Anderson and Bender there as well. I disliked losing the future Miami pick.

These moves seem to point to the Suns plan to be a major player in the 2019 free agency.

 

[1Sun]

The Suns still have the expiring contract of Darrell Arthur to use. Maybe his contract will be used to help acquire a PG.

However, I agree the Bridges trade combined with the acquisition of Ariza raises some questions. The Suns were supposedly going to play Ariza at PF but they have Anderson and Bender there as well. I disliked losing the future Miami pick.

These moves seem to point to the Suns plan to be a major player in the 2019 free agency.

Even if that were the case (the Suns being a major player in 2019 free agency), that won't matter if enduring this season with Harrison, Okobo, Melton and/or Canaan at point guard ends up ruining Ayton, Bridges, Jackson and Booker. By 2019, it will have been too late.

 

[Chaplin]

Why do we even need a "stopgap" point guard? I don't get it--how many wins does a stopgap PG help us with? How much "veteran leadership" does a stopgap point guard even provide?

Stop talking about that -- we have at least 2 stopgap point guards already.

 

[Mainstreet]

Even if that were the case (the Suns being a major player in 2019 free agency), that won't matter if enduring this season with Harrison, Okobo, Melton and/or Canaan at point guard ends up ruining Ayton, Bridges, Jackson and Booker. By 2019, it will have been too late.

We sort of agree but I don't think it has to be one or the other.

The Suns have plenty of backup PGs but they lack a starter. Unless the Suns can acquire a starter long term in a trade, I'd prefer they trade for a veteran who can start this season even if the Suns have to carry 4 point guards.

 

[1Sun]

Why do we even need a "stopgap" point guard? I don't get it--how many wins does a stopgap PG help us with? How much "veteran leadership" does a stopgap point guard even provide?

Stop talking about that -- we have at least 2 stopgap point guards already.

It's not about wins and losses for this year. It's about being able to develop Ayton, Bridges, Jackson and Booker and not ruining them with our current horribly inadequate point guard play (as last year did for Chriss, Bender and Jackson, and as we saw the likelihood of in Summer League play with Ayton, Bridges and Jackson).

(And actually, Harrison's passing and court vision are so bad, that I am afraid that with extended time he will end up getting someone like Ayton hurt a la Tom Gugliotta by Randy Livingston, by running into him or by throwing a pass so errant that it directs him into harm's way.)

 

[1Sun]

We sort of agree but I don't think it has to be one or the other.

The Suns have plenty of backup PGs but they lack a starter. Unless the Suns can acquire a starter long term in a trade, I'd prefer they trade for a veteran who can start this season even if the Suns have to carry 4 point guards.

Agreed, as long as the vast majority of time at the point is handled by a capable passer and ball handler with enough of a shot to keep defenses honest and not horrible defense...and in any event not Devin Booker (as we all saw the major toll that took on Booker's game last year and how it basically neutralized him overall and wore him out).

Of those requirements, Harrison has only defense and nothing else, Canaan will likely play horrible defense coming off of his injury and is not really a capable passer or ball handler, and neither Okobo nor Melton have any of them at the NBA level at this early stage in their careers.

 

[Chaplin]

It's not about wins and losses for this year. It's about being able to develop Ayton, Bridges, Jackson and Booker and not ruining them with our current horribly inadequate point guard play (as last year did for Chriss, Bender and Jackson, and as we saw the likelihood of in Summer League play with Ayton, Bridges and Jackson).

(And actually, Harrison's passing and court vision are so bad, that I am afraid that with extended time he will end up getting someone like Ayton hurt a la Tom Gugliotta by Randy Livingston, by running into him or by throwing a pass so errant that it directs him into harm's way.)

Ok, understood, but how much more adequate will a stopgap PG be? That's the question. The cost-benefit just doesn't line up.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

For a stopgap PG the maximum I would go is the Bucks pick but I'm not sure I do that.

A 2nd round pick and an an expiring contract might be able to get someone like Beverley or Teo.

I wouldn’t give that pick up for a stopgap

 

[Cheesebeef]

I wouldn’t give that pick up for a stopgap

agreed. you don't keep making bad decisions to make up for bad decisions. That's how we lost the Lakers pick, that we then had to trade TWO first round picks to get back.

 

[1Sun]

Ok, understood, but how much more adequate will a stopgap PG be? That's the question. The cost-benefit just doesn't line up.

The cost of not finding someone (setting the franchise back at least a half decade and ruining our young core, including our franchise cornerstone and our #1 overall pick) is so great that short of giving up Booker or Ayton, there is no cost too great to find someone.

 

[1Sun]

agreed. you don't keep making bad decisions to make up for bad decisions. That's how we lost the Lakers pick, that we then had to trade TWO first round picks to get back.

The problem at this point (as we saw last year and in Summer League) is that not having a competent NBA level point guard is so detrimental to our young core that without one, we might as well trade Booker, Jackson, Ayton and Bridges for first round picks in 2021, 2022 and 2023 and go into a full rebuild for 5 years down the road.

 

[Chaplin]

The cost of not finding someone (setting the franchise back at least a half decade and ruining our young core, including our franchise cornerstone and our #1 overall pick) is so great that short of giving up Booker or Ayton, there is no cost too great to find someone.

Disagree. At least, I disagree for the 2018-2019 Season. And again, your "someone" would marginally at best be better than what we already have. Your benefits don't add up.

 

[AzStevenCal]

The problem at this point (as we saw last year and in Summer League) is that not having a competent NBA level point guard is so detrimental to our young core that without one, we might as well trade Booker, Jackson, Ayton and Bridges for first round picks in 2021, 2022 and 2023 and go into a full rebuild for 5 years down the road.

Sounds reasonable to me.

 

[Chaplin]

The problem at this point (as we saw last year and in Summer League) is that not having a competent NBA level point guard is so detrimental to our young core that without one, we might as well trade Booker, Jackson, Ayton and Bridges for first round picks in 2021, 2022 and 2023 and go into a full rebuild for 5 years down the road.

Besides being a little alarmist, I'd like to know what your definition of "competent NBA level point guard" is. Dinwiddie? Fred Van Fleet? Dennis Schroeder? Because at the core of it, if Isaiah Canaan gets back to what he was before he was injured, he's EASILY comparable to those other players. Heck, he and even Shaq were comparable to Elfrid Payton last season.

We agree that we need better point guard play, but it needs to be SUBSTANTIALLY better than what we already have. A stopgap, even someone like Beverley, isn't going to move the needle as much as you think it needs to be moved. It just isn't. That's why next summer is so important, with so many big name point guards on the market.

 

[Cheesebeef]

The problem at this point (as we saw last year and in Summer League) is that not having a competent NBA level point guard is so detrimental to our young core that without one, we might as well trade Booker, Jackson, Ayton and Bridges for first round picks in 2021, 2022 and 2023 and go into a full rebuild for 5 years down the road.

aaaaaaaand credibility goes right out the window!

 

[Mainstreet]

Apparently the Suns tried to sign JJ Redick in free agency. The Suns might have used him to temporarily solve the issue at starting PG and play SG as well.

I'm only speculating about him playing PG for the Suns but he can play the position.

http://arizonasports.com/story/1663...edick-nba-free-agency/?show=comments#comments

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/redicjj01.html

 

[Mainstreet]

Here is the tweet about Redick.

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[Hoop Head]

Here is the tweet about Redick.

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While Reddick can play some PG minutes it would have been a mistake to sign him as our starting PG. He's similar to Booker in that he can cover PG for stretches but he's not a PG. So why sign him, at all? We're absolutely loaded with wings right now and adding another like Reddick would make the Bridges trade look even worse. Why trade that much for a rookie SG/SF is we plan on signing 2 wings in free agency to cover those positions. Where would Bridges have fit on the depth chart if we did land Reddick and Ariza? That just doesn't make sense.

If we didn't go after Ariza I wouldn't have minded going after Reddick as a veteran shooter but contacting him after agreeing with Ariza? That makes no sense. This offseason is looking worse and worse the further removed we get from some deals we did make with the holes still on our roster. I'd be really curious to see or hear what sort of actual plan the team had this offseason between the draft and free agency because it doesn't make sense looking at what has been done. What sort of roster did they talk to Kokoskov about playing? I think Budenholzer declining the Suns offer makes more sense now also.

 

[BC867]

And that's the problem I have with your posts. You complain about something, but offer no specific solution. PGs who can distribute, shoot, and defend don't grow on trees. Few that actually exist are not on the market. Even the better PGs in the league can't do all 3. Lillard, Walker, Dragic can't defend. It's easy to criticize and ask for point guards who can distribute, shoot, and defend, but we live in reality and not in some fantasy where young John Stocktons and Chris Pauls grow on trees.

Stef, I don't understand your response. Neither you nor I are paid by the Suns to invest our time in the around-the-clock General Manager job. Nor are we privy to what goes on behind the scenes.

If it is up to a fan sitting at home posting to the ASFN board for the Suns to do what they have to in order to be successful, it will be another eight years without a post-season appearance.

And, BTW, I mentioned in another post that it shouldn't be necessary for us to find an experienced Point Guard who can distribute, shoot and defend. Spreading the floor with 3-point shooting doesn't have to come from the Point Guard position, when Forwards can do that.

I hope the Suns are not looking for the perfect Point Guard -- you keep mentioning John Stockton -- to service Booker and Ayton. Just an experienced Point Guard. Not a tweener, not a Shooting Guard covering, just a decent, experienced NBA Point Guard.

Who? That's McDonough's job.

 

[Carolinacacti]

I'm still happy Useless was cut. Maybe we should wait for a game before crucifying the point guard play.

 

[Mainstreet]

While Reddick can play some PG minutes it would have been a mistake to sign him as our starting PG. He's similar to Booker in that he can cover PG for stretches but he's not a PG. So why sign him, at all? We're absolutely loaded with wings right now and adding another like Reddick would make the Bridges trade look even worse. Why trade that much for a rookie SG/SF is we plan on signing 2 wings in free agency to cover those positions. Where would Bridges have fit on the depth chart if we did land Reddick and Ariza? That just doesn't make sense.

If we didn't go after Ariza I wouldn't have minded going after Reddick as a veteran shooter but contacting him after agreeing with Ariza? That makes no sense. This offseason is looking worse and worse the further removed we get from some deals we did make with the holes still on our roster. I'd be really curious to see or hear what sort of actual plan the team had this offseason between the draft and free agency because it doesn't make sense looking at what has been done. What sort of roster did they talk to Kokoskov about playing? I think Budenholzer declining the Suns offer makes more sense now also.

Signing Redick would have been a puzzler. This is why I thought the Suns might use him as a starting PG this season.

Perhaps the Suns would have used the Bucks pick to trade Dudley without taking anything back to make room.

At the moment it does look like the Suns are throwing mud off the wall to see what sticks.


Edit: Substituted the word ""signing" for "trading" for Redick in the above post.

 

[1Sun]

Besides being a little alarmist, I'd like to know what your definition of "competent NBA level point guard" is. Dinwiddie? Fred Van Fleet? Dennis Schroeder? Because at the core of it, if Isaiah Canaan gets back to what he was before he was injured, he's EASILY comparable to those other players. Heck, he and even Shaq were comparable to Elfrid Payton last season.

We agree that we need better point guard play, but it needs to be SUBSTANTIALLY better than what we already have. A stopgap, even someone like Beverley, isn't going to move the needle as much as you think it needs to be moved. It just isn't. That's why next summer is so important, with so many big name point guards on the market.

I was engaging in hyperbole to illustrate what a waste this season will be and how much behind the 8-Ball Kokoskov and our young core will be with our current group of point guards.

I think a lot of you are understating just how bad (in the case of Harrison and Canaan) and nowhere near NBA ready (in the case of Okobo and Melton) our point guards are. Frankly, Harrison likely wouldn't even make any other NBA roster, and Okobo and Melton wouldn't see meaningful playing time for any other franchise other than in the G League for at least 2-3 years. That leaves Canaan, who was a mediocre level back-up at best before the injury, and who now is trying to come back from a Joe-Theisman-like gruesome injury. As it stands right now, one of those four is our starter. I don't think many of you recall just how bad Jackson, Warren and Booker were last year having to play with Canaan as the starting point guard, and I maintain that last year was a picnic compared to how demoralized Ayton, Bridges and Jackson seemed in Summer League play dealing with Harrison and Okobo at the point.

I agree that the likes of Patrick Beverly and Dennis Schroeder do not move the needle. But even the likes of Fred Van Vleet and Spencer Dinwiddie are Hall of Fame caliber compared to the current level of point guard play offered by the quartet of Canaan, Harrison, Okobo and Melton, in my opinion.