2018-19 Season | Point Guard Discussion

[AzStevenCal]

I I don't think many of you recall just how bad Jackson, Warren and Booker were last year having to play with Canaan as the starting poing guard, and I maintain that last year was a picnic compared to how demoralized Ayton, Bridges and Jackson seemed in Summer League play dealing with Harrison and Okobo at the point.

You mean in the ONE GAME he started last season? And if you're just talking about in the games he played, we went 9-11 during those which is far better than we did without him.

 

[1Sun]

You mean in the ONE GAME he started last season? And if you're just talking about in the games he played, we went 9-11 during those which is far better than we did without him.

You're right. My bad. I meant to say in the games in which Canaan played substantial minutes. And I'm not talking about record. This has never been about record, other than showing steady improvement. I'm talking about how badly players who are key to this team's future struggled with Canaan (and Harrison) at the point. Kokoskov, Booker, Ayton, Jackson and Bridges (as well as Bender and Warren, if they stick around) need and deserve much better than that.

 

[AzStevenCal]

You're right. My bad. I meant to say in the games in which Canaan played substantial minutes. And I'm not talking about record. This has never been about record, other than showing steady improvement. I'm talking about how badly players who are key to this team's future struggled with Canaan (and Harrison) at the point. Kokoskov, Booker, Ayton, Jackson and Bridges (as well as Bender and Warren, if they stick around) need and deserve much better than that.

I think we'd all agree that we'd be better off with a strong point guard. To me, there are roughly 15 teams each year that are happy with their starting point guard and the rest of them are in search of a better answer. If we can't get one of those 15 players, trying to find a different fix is basically just moving furniture around on the Titanic. And to pay a premium for that makes little sense. We're better off recognizing we can't solve all our problems in one off season. So, if there's a good deal to be had, great, but let's not force a deal simply because we aren't one of the happy 15.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Besides being a little alarmist, I'd like to know what your definition of "competent NBA level point guard" is. Dinwiddie? Fred Van Fleet? Dennis Schroeder? Because at the core of it, if Isaiah Canaan gets back to what he was before he was injured, he's EASILY comparable to those other players. Heck, he and even Shaq were comparable to Elfrid Payton last season.

We agree that we need better point guard play, but it needs to be SUBSTANTIALLY better than what we already have. A stopgap, even someone like Beverley, isn't going to move the needle as much as you think it needs to be moved. It just isn't. That's why next summer is so important, with so many big name point guards on the market.

Man, Chap. I could have written that post. Agree totally.

 

[1Sun]

I think we'd all agree that we'd be better off with a strong point guard. To me, there are roughly 15 teams each year that are happy with their starting point guard and the rest of them are in search of a better answer. If we can't get one of those 15 players, trying to find a different fix is basically just moving furniture around on the Titanic. And to pay a premium for that makes little sense. We're better off recognizing we can't solve all our problems in one off season. So, if there's a good deal to be had, great, but let's not force a deal simply because we aren't one of the happy 15.

For me, it's not about finding an answer at point guard or a "strong" point guard so much as it is avoiding the disaster and danger to our young core that comes with the current group of point guards on this roster. At this point, I would settle for below average as opposed to G League level...

 

[Mainstreet]

For me, it's not about finding an answer at point guard or a "strong" point guard so much as it is avoiding the disaster and danger to our young core that comes with the current group of point guards on this roster. At this point, I would settle for below average as opposed to G League level...

I think the Suns will trade for a PG so I wouldn't fret. My guess is it will be be a veteran PG who can temporarily fill the starter role this season unless they get lucky.

 

[Errntknght]

I'd give anything to hear what Kokoskov thinks about the crew of PGs he has now. The only real hint is that Knight was moved, presumeably with his blessing. He has a reputation for liking good defenders and none of the four are slackers when it comes to D. For all we know he might be thrilled to have young guys to mold into playing in his offense.

I'm sure he didn't like Harrison forcing passes to Ayton but I'd bet he'd rather have him overdoing it as opposed to ignoring him.

 

[Hoop Head]

Trading for Redick would have been a puzzler. This is why I thought the Suns might use him as a starting PG this season.

Perhaps the Suns would have used the Bucks pick to trade Dudley without taking anything back to make room.

At the moment it does look like the Suns are throwing mud off the wall to see what sticks.

Reddick was a free agent this summer so we wouldn't have traded for him. We would have needed to sign him somehow, probably using the MLE, but I doubt he would have been interested in that here. He signed a deal like Ariza did with us last year in Philly, I want to say he signed for 1 year and $20 million this last season but that expired and he was looking for something longer this year. Philly had a leg up on everyone else by overpaying him for 1 year already.

 

[Mainstreet]

I'd give anything to hear what Kokoskov thinks about the crew of PGs he has now. The only real hint is that Knight was moved, presumeably with his blessing. He has a reputation for liking good defenders and none of the four are slackers when it comes to D. For all we know he might be thrilled to have young guys to mold into playing in his offense.

I'm sure he didn't like Harrison forcing passes to Ayton but I'd bet he'd rather have him overdoing it as opposed to ignoring him.

Igor probably worries less than what we do about a starting PG because his offense has a lot of options and many players will be passing the ball around. Plus there will be more movement on offense. IMO, it will be more about team basketball.

 

[Mainstreet]

Reddick was a free agent this summer so we wouldn't have traded for him. We would have needed to sign him somehow, probably using the MLE, but I doubt he would have been interested in that here. He signed a deal like Ariza did with us last year in Philly, I want to say he signed for 1 year and $20 million this last season but that expired and he was looking for something longer this year. Philly had a leg up on everyone else by overpaying him for 1 year already.

I misspoke. I was thinking about trading Dudley (perhaps with the Bucks pick) to make room for Redick with nothing coming back.

 

[1Sun]

I'd give anything to hear what Kokoskov thinks about the crew of PGs he has now. The only real hint is that Knight was moved, presumeably with his blessing. He has a reputation for liking good defenders and none of the four are slackers when it comes to D. For all we know he might be thrilled to have young guys to mold into playing in his offense.

I'm sure he didn't like Harrison forcing passes to Ayton but I'd bet he'd rather have him overdoing it as opposed to ignoring him.

Harrison really went from one extreme to the other, either forcing passes in where he had no business making them or forgetting entirely that the game could be played inside the paint. He really has no feel for the game offensively, and from what I have seen of him, he never will. He is a capable defender (though even there, he reaches and defends with his arms too much instead of positioning his feet), and he has a great attitude. And his shot, while not good, has form with which one can work. It seems clear to me that the reason nobody gave him a sniff in the NBA until age 24 is that he has historically bad court vision and passing ability on offense. His poor assist and turnover numbers in college bear that out as well.

 

[Errntknght]

1Sun has put the largest onus on Harrison for his play last year and in SL but last year, his box plus minus was +5.8/48 in contrast to the teams overall -9.2. His ast/TO was 2.5, second only to Canaan at 2.6. He also lead the team in steals at 2.4/36 and did it without gambling. I don't have the stats for SL but I read the box scores and his were generally good. I know his ast/TO dudb't fall below 2.5 because I looking to see if it dropped off.

Maybe the reason Triano played Harrison so little was that he didn't want to risk the tanking effort.

 

[Hoop Head]

1Sun has put the largest onus on Harrison for his play last year and in SL but last year, his box plus minus was +5.8/48 in contrast to the teams overall -9.2. His ast/TO was 2.5, second only to Canaan at 2.6. He also lead the team in steals at 2.4/36 and did it without gambling. I don't have the stats for SL but I read the box scores and his were generally good. I know his ast/TO dudb't fall below 2.5 because I looking to see if it dropped off.

Maybe the reason Triano played Harrison so little was that he didn't want to risk the tanking effort.

And the Suns were still last in offensive efficiency. So while Harrison may have been the best of our PG's that isn't saying much. The team as a whole was awful and pointing out some stats for one player doesn't really help make a case for them next season. Harrison led a terrible Suns team last year and managed to make them a little better than trash, is that really a big enough achievement to give him the starting job this year?

 

[1Sun]

And the Suns were still last in offensive efficiency. So while Harrison may have been the best of our PG's that isn't saying much. The team as a whole was awful and pointing out some stats for one player doesn't really help make a case for them next season. Harrison led a terrible Suns team last year and managed to make them a little better than trash, is that really a big enough achievement to give him the starting job this year?

Particularly where, advanced metrics aside, our future core in Ayton, Bridges and Jackson were visibly frustrated and dispirited by his play during the summer?

 

[JustWinBaby]

I think the point of this discussion is directly related to a job evaluation of McDonough.
Today is not the issue. We have we what we have and I for one do not want us to blow our wad on someone that is a temporary fit.

My issue as well and many other is that we knew we needed a PG a the start of the off season.

We had these assets available.

1. The Number 1 pick in the Draft
2. The number 16 pick in the draft
3. Cap Space I think $18 Mil
4. The Miami Pick

As we sit here today we have added Ayton who is a center, Okobo PG, Ariza a wing, Bridges a wing, Anderson a PF, Arthur PF, Holmes PF & Melton.

After all these additions, where is the legit Point guard for now and the future?

Lots of money spent and key assets used (Miami pick), yet still no legit point guard.

Why?

That is the question.

 

[Errntknght]

And the Suns were still last in offensive efficiency. So while Harrison may have been the best of our PG's that isn't saying much. The team as a whole was awful and pointing out some stats for one player doesn't really help make a case for them next season. Harrison led a terrible Suns team last year and managed to make them a little better than trash, is that really a big enough achievement to give him the starting job this year?

I wasn't trying make a case for starting Harrison. For the same reason I never wanted Bledsoe to start. You maximize the players value to the team by keeping their minutes down the level at which they play strong defense every second they are on the floor. He's no CP3 clone who makes a major contribution to the offense whether he's fresh or his behind is dragging. I don't forsee Harrison ever being enough of a threat on offense to start but his defense can carry him for 22 mpg.

 

[1Sun]

I wasn't trying make a case for starting Harrison. For the same reason I never wanted Bledsoe to start. You maximize the players value to the team by keeping their minutes down the level at which they play strong defense every second they are on the floor. He's no CP3 clone who makes a major contribution to the offense whether he's fresh or his behind is dragging. I don't forsee Harrison ever being enough of a threat on offense to start but his defense can carry him for 22 mpg.

While destroying our offense and our young core in the process. Harrison can't be allowed to play more than 5-10 minutes a game in spot duty, if at all. He just can't.

 

[Errntknght]

Particularly where, advanced metrics aside, our future core in Ayton, Bridges and Jackson were visibly frustrated and dispirited by his play during the summer?

You keep repeating this but I watched every minute of SL and I saw nothing of the sort. Others brought up his forced passes in to Ayton but never mentioned him causing the whole team to be dispirited. Igor must have missed what you saw, too, because he kept putting Shaq out there. I can well imagine Ayton being unhappy with some of Harrison's passes but overall Harrison got him the ball more than anyone else did. You must have tremendous vision if you saw Jackson getting dispirited and could tell that it was due to Harrison's lapses and not his own terrible play. Yep, a might keen eye.

 

[Cheesebeef]

we were trying to go after Reddick... and some people think a dudley/Milwaukee pick would have been in the offing or at least a worthwhile deal?!

My lord, I'd say thank god some of you aren't running this team, but with the stuff I'm reading, I'm starting to wonder if one of you IS!

 

[AzStevenCal]

we were trying to go after Reddick... and some people think a dudley/Milwaukee pick would have been in the offing or at least a worthwhile deal?!

My lord, I'd say thank god some of you aren't running this team, but with the stuff I'm reading, I'm starting to wonder if one of you IS!

Okay, now that's funny.

 

[JCSunsfan]

we were trying to go after Reddick... and some people think a dudley/Milwaukee pick would have been in the offing or at least a worthwhile deal?!

My lord, I'd say thank god some of you aren't running this team, but with the stuff I'm reading, I'm starting to wonder if one of you IS!

Dream job!!!!!

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Particularly where, advanced metrics aside, our future core in Ayton, Bridges and Jackson were visibly frustrated and dispirited by his play during the summer?

I was openly critical of Harrison’s ability to run the offense and set up others for success during summer league. But this narrative of Ayton, Bridges and JJ being “visibly frustrated and dispirited” is a total fabrication that you seem to have convinced yourself of. I watched every game. I’m a hyper critical fan (ask the board’s more senior members). I didn’t see an iota of what you’re claiming over and over again.

Do I think we have a pg on the roster that should start at present? No. But I also don’t think that we are about to have an army of malcontents due to this fact, and alarmist (chap you stole the exact word forming in my head whilst reading 1Sun) tidings of ruining talented players in their first or second year is like parents telling their children about boogeyman. Good players rise in spite of challenges placed in their path. Booker’s ascension is a prime example of that. He’s been surrounded with subpar talent and chaos and look where he is. The young guys will be fine with proper coaching. They might develop more quickly with an adequate pg, but the fear of them being “destroyed” or whatever word you’re using is a bit silly imo.

 

[Mainstreet]

we were trying to go after Reddick... and some people think a dudley/Milwaukee pick would have been in the offing or at least a worthwhile deal?!

My lord, I'd say thank god some of you aren't running this team, but with the stuff I'm reading, I'm starting to wonder if one of you IS!

To move Dudley with no salary coming back it would have likely taken the Bucks pick. I speculated this is what it might take to clear salary space for Redick quickly.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Suns targeting Patrick Beverly according to Shams. Don't want to give up a first round pick.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/video/lif...eting-clippers-pg-patrick-beverley/vp-BBNsAjY

 

[AzStevenCal]

Suns targeting Patrick Beverly according to Shams. Don't want to give up a first round pick.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/video/lif...eting-clippers-pg-patrick-beverley/vp-BBNsAjY

We're not very bright, are we? Beverly for free is a questionable decision. Paying for him is absurd.