2018-19 Season | Point Guard Discussion

[GatorAZ]

Can we just imagine how much easier Devin Booker’s life would be if he were playing with one, let alone two, top-10 scorers in NBA history? Here’s looking at you Deandre.

 

[Finito]

I’ll take that as a no.

No you'll take it as I done with this. This is just a brick wall.

 

[GatorAZ]

No you'll take it as I done with this. This is just a brick wall.

I for one think this entire argument was very relevant to the Suns PG situation.

 

[Finito]

I for one think this entire argument was very relevant to the Suns PG situation.

Lol right

 

[Phrazbit]

No you'll take it as I done with this. This is just a brick wall.

Well, if you're just going to post "lol" and say no stats matter... then what's the point?

 

[Errntknght]

This came up before. I remember looking it up and not finding Okobo anywhere. He played for some junior team- that was his only national team experience.

I'm almost certain that it was you who gave us game links to a number of Euroleague games. Those are the only Euro games I've watched in the last couple of years and my memory is that I saw Okobo in one of them. But you know your stuff when it comes to European Leagues and if you say he didn't play then I've manufactured it all out of whole cloth, as we say. (Most likely I saw some youtube clisps of him playing at about the same time, and my memory fused it into the EL games.) And now that you mention it we did go through this same process early in the summer.

 

[GatorAZ]

Wow that was boring.

Sidery is the listening equivalent of ambien.

 

[SirStefan32]

I'm almost certain that it was you who gave us game links to a number of Euroleague games. Those are the only Euro games I've watched in the last couple of years and my memory is that I saw Okobo in one of them. But you know your stuff when it comes to European Leagues and if you say he didn't play then I've manufactured it all out of whole cloth, as we say. (Most likely I saw some youtube clisps of him playing at about the same time, and my memory fused it into the EL games.) And now that you mention it we did go through this same process early in the summer.

Yeah, it was I that shared some links. I looked it up again, and Okobo was definitely not on the main squad.
http://www.fiba.basketball/eurobasket/2017/France#tab=roster

It doesn't take anything away from Okobo, though. He is a young kid, and kids his age play on teams that are for specific age range. Guys like Doncic are freaks of nature. It's very rare that a 19 or 20 year-olds play on main teams, and it's even more rare that they make serious contributions. Okobo was not drafted to make immediate impact, and we all saw the potential in the summer league. I know I was pleasantly surprised.

 

[Finito]

Gambo reporting the Suns are looking at 2nd tier point guards now. 3 specific targets

Clippers: Patrick Beverley
Pacers: Cory Joseph
Nets: Spencer Dinwiddie

I would be super happy with Dinwiddie or Beverley with Dinwiddie my number 1 choice just due to age. But Beverley would provide veteran leadership and toughness

 

[GatorAZ]

Gambo reporting the Suns are looking at 2nd tier point guards now. 3 specific targets

Clippers: Patrick Beverley
Pacers: Cory Joseph
Nets: Spencer Dinwiddie

I would be super happy with Dinwiddie or Beverley with Dinwiddie my number 1 choice just due to age. But Beverley would provide veteran leadership and toughness

Been pimping Dinwiddie all summer. Not a great shooter but smart and has great vision. He led the improved Nets in Win Shares (advanced stats alert).

 

[SirStefan32]

I agree. Dinwiddie would be my preferred choice.

 

[AzStevenCal]

As a starter, I don't care for any of our recent PG targets but Dinwiddie is the easy call between the 3.

 

[elindholm]

Gambo reporting the Suns are looking at 2nd tier point guards now.

I do not think those words mean what you think they mean.

 

[Phrazbit]

If we trade for Patrick Beverly I will call shotgun on the "fire McD wagon".

The only injury worse than a microfracture for NBA players is an achillies, I wouldn't want him if he were healthy.

And he's never been a player to trust with the ball in their hands and he's one of the dirtiest players in the league. Screw him. I'd prefer he never played again and certainly not sucking around for us as a shell of player he once was, probably only retaining his ability not give a crap if he injures someone out there.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Isaiah Canaan's numbers last year were 14.5p, 6.5a, 4r. 2.5tv, and 33% from three. He also is a good defender. Those were per36 of course. Per36 numbers are useful when minutes are not piddly.

I am not sure that Dinwiddie is going to be much better than that. I am not advocating for Canaan as our starting pg, I am just saying that the second tier pg's we are looking at might not be that much better than what is already on our roster.

I do not see a point in making a deal for a second tier pg unless we are convinced that player is our pg of the future.

 

[SirStefan32]

Isaiah Canaan's numbers last year were 14.5p, 6.5a, 4r. 2.5tv, and 33% from three. He also is a good defender. Those were per36 of course. Per36 numbers are useful when minutes are not piddly.

I am not sure that Dinwiddie is going to be much better than that. I am not advocating for Canaan as our starting pg, I am just saying that the second tier pg's we are looking at might not be that much better than what is already on our roster.

I do not see a point in making a deal for a second tier pg unless we are convinced that player is our pg of the future.

Canaan was a nice surprise. While he didn't excel at anything, he was competent at everything. Someone like Dinwiddie has some advantages. I am not looking this up, but I am confident saying that he is taller and longer than Canaan, and that he is a few years younger. He also appears to be more of a traditional/ natural point guard. Canaan reminds me of of a shooting guard who figured out how to run the point. Dinwiddie just seems more natural. Canaan is also coming off of a nasty injury, so we don't know what he's gonna look like. And please keep in mind that this is coming from a big Canaan fan.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Canaan was a nice surprise. While he didn't excel at anything, he was competent at everything. Someone like Dinwiddie has some advantages. I am not looking this up, but I am confident saying that he is taller and longer than Canaan, and that he is a few years younger. He also appears to be more of a traditional/ natural point guard. Canaan reminds me of of a shooting guard who figured out how to run the point. Dinwiddie just seems more natural. Canaan is also coming off of a nasty injury, so we don't know what he's gonna look like. And please keep in mind that this is coming from a big Canaan fan.

Dinwiddie is a bit bigger, but his handle is not as good as Canaan. Dinwiddie has a very high dribble, similar to Josh Jackson. Anyway. I don't want to try to argue Canaan over Dinwiddie, just that there is not a big enough difference between the two to justify giving up much in a trade.

 

[SirStefan32]

Dinwiddie is a bit bigger, but his handle is not as good as Canaan. Dinwiddie has a very high dribble, similar to Josh Jackson. Anyway. I don't want to try to argue Canaan over Dinwiddie, just that there is not a big enough difference between the two to justify giving up much in a trade.

It's a good, reasonable argument.

 

[GatorAZ]

Dinwiddie’s handles don’t seem to be contributing to high turnover rates. In fact his AST/TO rate is 2nd best in the league.

 

[1Sun]

None of the so-called "second tier" point guards really do much to move the needle, but at least Cory Joseph or Spencer Dinwiddie might be competent enough as a stop-gap. We saw in Summer League the detrimental effect that relying on Shaq Harrison and Elie Okobo will have on the rest of the team. Not only was Ayton frustrated and ultimately neutralized as a result, but I believe it directly impacted Josh Jackson trying to force things and do too much, and it also took Mikal Bridges out of his game after the first game of Summer League.

With Okobo, I just think he needs time to learn the NBA game, and the potential is there. He just isn't ready yet, and he really could use a year in the G League to get used to American basketball. I think the same goes for Melton, albeit with respect to getting used to truly competitive basketball again, since he hasn't played any in two years.

As for Shaq Harrison, yes he is a willing passer, but in terms of ability, he might be the worst passer I have ever seen at any level. He just has zero court vision, and his passes are consistently off the mark. If he makes the roster at all, he should at best be put in for 5-10 minutes tops as a defensive spark plug. Use him for anything other than that, and this team is in serious trouble, not just in terms of record, but in terms of potentially causing major delays and disruptions in the development of Ayton, Bridges, Jackson and perhaps even Booker, and likely being the death knell for Bender (though he is just about beyond hope at this point anyway). Even if Shaq Harrison develops a reliable shooting touch (which is also a long shot, no pun intended), he really is better suited as an undersized 2-guard than as a point guard. Incidentally, Patrick Beverly falls into the poor passer camp as well. Look at his career assist and turnover numbers, and that should tell you all you need to know. And coming off of a major debilitating injury, the one positive Beverly otherwise could have brought to this team is now gone, since he will be at least a step slower than he used to be on the defensive side of the ball. Canaan will be a liability on defense for the same reason, and while he is a better passer than Beverly (and a far better passer than Harrison), he is still below average.

What this team really needs from the point guard position is a capable passer who is not only willing but also able to play in and facilitate Igor Kokoskov's offensive system, who has just enough of an outside shot to keep defenses honest, and who ideally is both a willing and an above average defender. We do not need a star at the point guard position, but we can't afford to have someone who will have a negative impact on our young core.

I don't know where the answer lies, but in my opinion, it clearly is not currently on the roster.

 

[Hoop Head]

None of the so-called "second tier" point guards really do much to move the needle, but at least Cory Joseph or Spencer Dinwiddie might be competent enough as a stop-gap. We saw in Summer League the detrimental effect that relying on Shaq Harrison and Elie Okobo will have on the rest of the team. Not only was Ayton frustrated and ultimately neutralized as a result, but I believe it directly impacted Josh Jackson trying to force things and do too much, and it also took Mikal Bridges out of his game after the first game of Summer League.

With Okobo, I just think he needs time to learn the NBA game, and the potential is there. He just isn't ready yet, and he really could use a year in the G League to get used to American basketball. I think the same goes for Melton, albeit with respect to getting used to truly competitive basketball again, since he hasn't played any in two years.

As for Shaq Harrison, yes he is a willing passer, but in terms of ability, he might be the worst passer I have ever seen at any level. He just has zero court vision, and his passes are consistently off the mark. If he makes the roster at all, he should at best be put in for 5-10 minutes tops as a defensive spark plug. Use him for anything other than that, and this team is in serious trouble, not just in terms of record, but in terms of potentially causing major delays and disruptions in the development of Ayton, Bridges, Jackson and perhaps even Booker, and likely being the death knell for Bender (though he is just about beyond hope at this point anyway). Even if Shaq Harrison develops a reliable shooting touch (which is also a long shot, no pun intended), he really is better suited as an undersized 2-guard than as a point guard. Incidentally, Patrick Beverly falls into the poor passer camp as well. Look at his career assist and turnover numbers, and that should tell you all you need to know. And coming off of a major debilitating injury, the one positive Beverly otherwise could have brought to this team is now gone, since he will be at least a step slower than he used to be on the defensive side of the ball. Canaan will be a liability on defense for the same reason, and while he is a better passer than Beverly (and a far better passer than Harrison), he is still below average.

What this team really needs from the point guard position is a capable passer who is not only willing but also able to play in and facilitate Igor Kokoskov's offensive system, who has just enough of an outside shot to keep defenses honest, and who ideally is both a willing and an above average defender. We do not need a star at the point guard position, but we can't afford to have someone who will have a negative impact on our young core.

I don't know where the answer lies, but in my opinion, it clearly is not currently on the roster.

Welcome to the board! Great post, I agree with virtually all of the points you make. The Suns can't afford to play with inexperienced PG's yet again for an entire season. Last year happened partially because Bledsoe asked out. They had all of last season, the draft, and all of free agency to find someone to man that position and all they've done is add some 2nd round fringe NBA talent to the other fringe NBA talent they have as PG's currently. 4 G-Leaguer's don't equal 1 NBA player.

Going into training camp and starting the season without anyone other than Harrison, Canaan, Okobo, and Melton will only point to the incompetence of this front office in how they consistently fail to build a balanced roster. It's bad for the coaches that have been hired and puts them in an uphill battle trying to push players into unfamiliar positions to get the most of the roster as a whole. It's not just the coaches who suffer without a real NBA PG though, it's also the other players on the court when it comes to looking to someone to initiate plays. This is the first time we've lacked a PG but it's not the first time McD has given a rookie head coach a 15 man roster that is missing an NBA level talent at a key position. How he expects them to cover for his mismatched rosters though is the real issue. He's been the constant in the last 3 coaching staff's that have failed here, 4 if you count Triano.

 

[Mainstreet]

Likewise, welcome aboard @1Sun.

I agree the Suns need at least a stop-gap point guard until the Suns develop or trade for one.

 

[SirStefan32]

does anyone know an easy way to look up the Suns' record last year when Canaan played?

 

[Chaplin]

does anyone know an easy way to look up the Suns' record last year when Canaan played?

He played for the Suns from December 16 and fractured his ankle on January 31st. Not sure if he played in EVERY game between those two dates, but you can at least derive the record from that.

 

[BC867]

None of the so-called "second tier" point guards really do much to move the needle, but at least Cory Joseph or Spencer Dinwiddie might be competent enough as a stop-gap. We saw in Summer League the detrimental effect that relying on Shaq Harrison and Elie Okobo will have on the rest of the team. Not only was Ayton frustrated and ultimately neutralized as a result, but I believe it directly impacted Josh Jackson trying to force things and do too much, and it also took Mikal Bridges out of his game after the first game of Summer League.

With Okobo, I just think he needs time to learn the NBA game, and the potential is there. He just isn't ready yet, and he really could use a year in the G League to get used to American basketball. I think the same goes for Melton, albeit with respect to getting used to truly competitive basketball again, since he hasn't played any in two years.

As for Shaq Harrison, yes he is a willing passer, but in terms of ability, he might be the worst passer I have ever seen at any level. He just has zero court vision, and his passes are consistently off the mark. If he makes the roster at all, he should at best be put in for 5-10 minutes tops as a defensive spark plug. Use him for anything other than that, and this team is in serious trouble, not just in terms of record, but in terms of potentially causing major delays and disruptions in the development of Ayton, Bridges, Jackson and perhaps even Booker, and likely being the death knell for Bender (though he is just about beyond hope at this point anyway). Even if Shaq Harrison develops a reliable shooting touch (which is also a long shot, no pun intended), he really is better suited as an undersized 2-guard than as a point guard. Incidentally, Patrick Beverly falls into the poor passer camp as well. Look at his career assist and turnover numbers, and that should tell you all you need to know. And coming off of a major debilitating injury, the one positive Beverly otherwise could have brought to this team is now gone, since he will be at least a step slower than he used to be on the defensive side of the ball. Canaan will be a liability on defense for the same reason, and while he is a better passer than Beverly (and a far better passer than Harrison), he is still below average.

What this team really needs from the point guard position is a capable passer who is not only willing but also able to play in and facilitate Igor Kokoskov's offensive system, who has just enough of an outside shot to keep defenses honest, and who ideally is both a willing and an above average defender. We do not need a star at the point guard position, but we can't afford to have someone who will have a negative impact on our young core.

I don't know where the answer lies, but in my opinion, it clearly is not currently on the roster.[/QYUOTE]

Welcome to the board! Great post, I agree with virtually all of the points you make. The Suns can't afford to play with inexperienced PG's yet again for an entire season. Last year happened partially because Bledsoe asked out. They had all of last season, the draft, and all of free agency to find someone to man that position and all they've done is add some 2nd round fringe NBA talent to the other fringe NBA talent they have as PG's currently. 4 G-Leaguer's don't equal 1 NBA player.

Going into training camp and starting the season without anyone other than Harrison, Canaan, Okobo, and Melton will only point to the incompetence of this front office in how they consistently fail to build a balanced roster. It's bad for the coaches that have been hired and puts them in an uphill battle trying to push players into unfamiliar positions to get the most of the roster as a whole. It's not just the coaches who suffer without a real NBA PG though, it's also the other players on the court when it comes to looking to someone to initiate plays. This is the first time we've lacked a PG but it's not the first time McD has given a rookie head coach a 15 man roster that is missing an NBA level talent at a key position. How he expects them to cover for his mismatched rosters though is the real issue. He's been the constant in the last 3 coaching staff's that have failed here, 4 if you count Triano.

One ASFN post or 4,452, you both hit it on the head!

Is there no one in the Suns front office who doesn't see that?